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Author Topic: What do you think of Comunism?  (Read 5411 times)
craked5
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February 27, 2017, 04:33:16 PM
 #121

Of course we can do it.

It's just that it helps people in power to tell us "we're more skilled, you don't have the knowledge nor the time"
While believe me, we have both!

Are you a teenager?

Ahahah! You'd love that yeah? Grin

Well problem is I'm a full grown-up engineer, and after meeting hundreds of people that made various studies I'm pretty much convince they have no specific skills.
They learn a bit more than us that's true, but most of it is pure bureaucracy junk. Add 200 hours of philosophy and economy to Highschool (at least in France) and I guarantee you anyone will be as skilled as they are.

Even more, most of them are remotely unskilled on the subject they have to work on. While if the people had the power, we could all focus on policies we're competent on. For example I'd just LOVE to kick the ass of current French state secretary of energy, because as an engineer working in that field me and my colleagues would be MUCH MORE suited for those questions.

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February 27, 2017, 04:43:23 PM
 #122

Usually teenagers are the ones who think they are supermen able to change the world and work 48h/day...  Roll Eyes

Politics is mostly bureaucratic junk, it resumes to it. We can't afford to have our workers, engineers, farmers and so on wasting their precious time with bureaucratic junk. Plain and simple.
The best way is to reduce the politicians powers to its essentials and let people take care of the rest on their own; this way people will do their own "politics" and without wasting their time.

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Forester618
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February 27, 2017, 04:44:06 PM
 #123

The utopian communism compared to capitalism, because capitalism at this stage of development of mankind can in any way solve the problem of limited resources and infinite needs. Therefore communism could be built only with a significant increase in the number of available resources (cold fusion for example) + the ideal system of distribution is possible only with the development of information technology.
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February 27, 2017, 05:03:55 PM
 #124

Usually teenagers are the ones who think they are supermen able to change the world and work 48h/day...  Roll Eyes

That's also the case of educated people knowing what they talk about.

In France a total of 130 laws are deposited every year. Not passed, only DEPOSITED.
That's a law every 3 days.
That means that to be able to vote on every law proposed, a citizen should have to do that twice a week. You think we can't handle that?

Well you don't even have to read and vote every law, only the ones your concerned by. If it's not in your field of expertise, you don't even have to look at it.

But don't tell me that direct democracy is impossible, 2 laws a week IS NOT so much. Especially as you will have to look at only a third of them, the others being not in your field.

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February 27, 2017, 06:39:09 PM
 #125

Now you're diminishing the meaning of governing. It's not just vote laws. The whole State machine is way bigger to manage.

And no, direct democracy doesn't work at all. You won't get the ones within the field of expertize to vote, but an assortment of useless people waiting to get some profit out of something, the usual politic and those who have time for it. Out of all democracy variants, direct is the worse of them, go read Plato...

Then I wouldn't go a using France as an example, it's probably the most medieval-aged public system I know. Even an ATM is a rare event there, everything goes around "rendez-vous" and overwhelming bureaucratic.

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craked5
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February 27, 2017, 07:01:04 PM
 #126

Now you're diminishing the meaning of governing. It's not just vote laws. The whole State machine is way bigger to manage.
No one said we should get rid of the whole government!
Direct democracy means you have the ACTUAL POWER. Not that you can't delegate it to a government.
Difference is you still have the important power (laws) and you can actually get rid of corrupted bastards.
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And no, direct democracy doesn't work at all. You won't get the ones within the field of expertize to vote, but an assortment of useless people waiting to get some profit out of something, the usual politic and those who have time for it.
Now... That's some hard pessimism here...
What you're saying is in short "people skilled won't take the time to vote and other people will just vote for their own profit".
Well if you think that way... Why do humanity still exists?
You're in short saying that humans is deeply selfish and won't be able to do anything for the long run, he'll only think about himself and the present. That's a philosophical statement that got more and more popular those years...

Fact is that we have made scientific demonstration of the deep human capacity for empathy and collaboration. Humans are NOT competitive animals. They're cooperating ones.
Our race is made for cooperation and groups of humans are more likely to go in the right direction than a lonely one.
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Out of all democracy variants, direct is the worse of them, go read Plato...
Lol, ok so two important things here:
1/ First you're talking about someone who was deeply convinced about the natural necessity for some men to be slaves, that they are even happy to have masters and couldn't live without having someone to obey. Hard to take seriously someone like that on subjects like autonomy and political rights no?
2/ Plato wasn't against direct democracy. He was against democracy and in general all kind of government that was existing. He wanted something else, something that has yet to be invented.
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Then I wouldn't go a using France as an example, it's probably the most medieval-aged public system I know. Even an ATM is a rare event there, everything goes around "rendez-vous" and overwhelming bureaucratic.

I don't exactly understand why you're saying that. France isn't especially "old aged public system". Got one of the best health system in the world, and in general a nearly digitalized system (it has yet to be achieved but for example taxes will now be taken at source so no longer the usual tax sheets to fill by hand on paper).
Moreover I don't know what ATM means, for me it's the machine giving out cash in the street xD
(sorry not English native speaker here)

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February 27, 2017, 07:08:58 PM
 #127

Usually teenagers are the ones who think they are supermen able to change the world and work 48h/day...  Roll Eyes

Politics is mostly bureaucratic junk, it resumes to it. We can't afford to have our workers, engineers, farmers and so on wasting their precious time with bureaucratic junk. Plain and simple.
The best way is to reduce the politicians powers to its essentials and let people take care of the rest on their own; this way people will do their own "politics" and without wasting their time.
Unfortunately, every state is a bureaucracy of violence. The bureaucrats are looking for different pretexts in order to confirm their significance. Many of them thus to extort bribes. It seems to me that to deal with this phenomenon is possible only through simplification of the legislation.
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February 27, 2017, 07:53:35 PM
 #128

We had a revolution here back in 74 it was bouncing towards a sort of communism. One day I got hold on the resumes of a bankrupted factory from such time, it was a time when all meetings were attended by workers as "working commissions" to govern the factory. It was pure non-sense what was going on: the production engineer said it would be best to produce some sort of wood that France was interested on, but a guy that was cutting boards at the back of the factory said it would be better to produce something else; the factory voted with this last guy.

The problem isn't if the skilled will vote or not, the problem is that they will be overruled by unskilled. Got the difference?

About the French public service:
- Here - at the winning side of Euro 2016  Grin - sending your tax report over the internet is possible since 2004, no longer accepted on paper form since 2011 and now is even automatic, you don't need to fill anything, unless you want or have other income to declare...  Roll Eyes
Yes, an ATM stands for "Automatic Teller Machine" or a "machine that gives money in the streets". Just for an example, Le Louvre is at the center of Paris, right? Which is the capital of France, so a big city... I was looking for an ATM, from there I'd to go over the river, walk across several small roads for nearly 2km to find one.
Then to take care of something with the public services it all have to go through someone, who is always in Monday mood and took a dozen of lemons for breakfast, and isn't because I'm foreigner, they don't seam any different with natives.
Paris in particular look like had a good infrastructure, at the 70's or 80's, now looks old. And love those plates saying something like "Road under repair, we're sorry for the inconvenience - We must finish before August 2010"... seeing these at 2016, and the working still going on, really warms you up, doesn't it?

I understand that France is a bit big so things may take some more time, but yes, from the countries I'd to deal with is one of the most outdated. Spain is pretty much as big, but way more up-to-date.

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craked5
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February 27, 2017, 08:07:10 PM
 #129

We had a revolution here back in 74 it was bouncing towards a sort of communism. One day I got hold on the resumes of a bankrupted factory from such time, it was a time when all meetings were attended by workers as "working commissions" to govern the factory. It was pure non-sense what was going on: the production engineer said it would be best to produce some sort of wood that France was interested on, but a guy that was cutting boards at the back of the factory said it would be better to produce something else; the factory voted with this last guy.

The problem isn't if the skilled will vote or not, the problem is that they will be overruled by unskilled. Got the difference?
I got the problem but could give you opposite examples. There is a library that went bankrupt in my city, called "les volcans". The workers actually decided to buy it back for the 1€ symbolic price and managed to make it back on its feet. Now it's the biggest library in the city and you can get whatever you want from here.

Overall, studies showed that collective intelligence is more efficient than individual skill in most situations. It's untrue in very technical subject but on more general decisions it's the case.
Though I would be interested in studies you might object me.

And if your population isn't able to take the right decision, then at least it should suffer the consequences of its own choices. And please tell me how the people could screw it more than our current governments xD
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About the French public service:
- Here - at the winning side of Euro 2016  Grin - sending your tax report over the internet is possible since 2004, no longer accepted on paper form since 2011 and now is even automatic, you don't need to fill anything, unless you want or have other income to declare...  Roll Eyes
Sorry I don't follow football :3
But it seems we're late yeah, but 6 years late isn't "middle aged" man, it's just a bit late ^^
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Yes, an ATM stands for "Automatic Teller Machine" or a "machine that gives money in the streets". Just for an example, Le Louvre is at the center of Paris, right? Which is the capital of France, so a big city... I was looking for an ATM, from there I'd to go over the river, walk across several small roads for nearly 2km to find one.
Lol! I mean here you're just unlucky or really not good at finding things xD
I live in France and never had any problem with ATMs, you're just taking a very specific example and generalizing it :3
(and maybe you're the one a bit blind because I don't think there is a circle of 2km without an ATM in Paris ^^)
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Then to take care of something with the public services it all have to go through someone, who is always in Monday mood and took a dozen of lemons for breakfast, and isn't because I'm foreigner, they don't seam any different with natives.
That's very different, that's linked with the status of people working for the state, status which is a bit outdated I give you that.
Quote
Paris in particular look like had a good infrastructure, at the 70's or 80's, now looks old. And love those plates saying something like "Road under repair, we're sorry for the inconvenience - We must finish before August 2010"... seeing these at 2016, and the working still going on, really warms you up, doesn't it?

I understand that France is a bit big so things may take some more time, but yes, from the countries I'd to deal with is one of the most outdated. Spain is pretty much as big, but way more up-to-date.
Well seems you had a general bad impression ^^

Though I'd have to say it's difficult to counter argument you because... Well because it's just an impression you had. You're not pointing out specific problems so hard to give you any figure.

Anyway I think France is also a bit late in lots of things. Contrary to other countries we've always worked by steps. We don't evolve and then BOOM REVOLUTION BITCH and we go ahead of our times by 30 years at least. But last revolution was some time ago. Might be just the right moment for a new one... I hope.

popcorn1
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February 27, 2017, 08:14:51 PM
 #130

Total Communism will fail..
For human life to do well we need all 3   socialism capitalism communism all mixed together..

Any one on their own will fail..

Total socialism no good

Total capitalism no good

Total communism no good

Mix the 3 in a blender and we have a nice soup Wink..
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February 27, 2017, 09:00:59 PM
 #131

I do spend a lot of time at France (mostly waiting on endless queues - if I'm lucky, otherwise I've to fly back due to some strike - or really unlucky and even the airport got to strike meanwhile  Grin ). I just took a few practical examples from my experience, I would have much more.
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean I don't like France or have a general bad impression of it, but the system is outdated and too bureaucratic, mainly faulty at public services.

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Sr.Urbanist
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February 27, 2017, 09:07:41 PM
 #132

In some countries comunism is a threat to religions and government. What do you think of the growth of comunism in your country?

Communism failed. Our private lives will never be "equal", which is the basis to communism.  

The only way to achieve a more equal society is through great parks, wonderful streets, fantastic sidewalks, bicycles, health, education and opportunity.  We need to look at equity and how we treat our most vulnerable populations. I believe socialism, not communism, achieves these aims because the State is not in control of production and we live better lives.  Places like Denmark, Norway and Netherlands are great examples.
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February 27, 2017, 09:19:14 PM
 #133

But don't tell me that direct democracy is impossible, 2 laws a week IS NOT so much. Especially as you will have to look at only a third of them, the others being not in your field.

That sounds expensive to implement. 
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February 27, 2017, 10:36:36 PM
 #134

Total Communism will fail..
For human life to do well we need all 3   socialism capitalism communism all mixed together..

Any one on their own will fail..

Total socialism no good

Total capitalism no good

Total communism no good

Mix the 3 in a blender and we have a nice soup Wink..

Probably.
Let's take the entrepreneurship of capitalism.
The wealth redistribution of socialism.
The production means collectivism for necessary fields.
Mix them up through direct democracy.
I'd be proud to live in such society.

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frankbit
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February 27, 2017, 10:45:29 PM
 #135

Total Communism will fail..
For human life to do well we need all 3   socialism capitalism communism all mixed together..

Any one on their own will fail..

Total socialism no good

Total capitalism no good

Total communism no good

Mix the 3 in a blender and we have a nice soup Wink..

Probably.
Let's take the entrepreneurship of capitalism.
The wealth redistribution of socialism.
The production means collectivism for necessary fields.
Mix them up through direct democracy.
I'd be proud to live in such society.
Will not work. Why do you think that those who produce the goods I want somebody redistributed? Why do you think people will want to go to work in the farm if the rest will work in the office? No it is a utopia. I am sure that communism is not feasible.
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February 27, 2017, 10:50:35 PM
 #136

Total Communism will fail..
For human life to do well we need all 3   socialism capitalism communism all mixed together..

Any one on their own will fail..

Total socialism no good

Total capitalism no good

Total communism no good

Mix the 3 in a blender and we have a nice soup Wink..

Probably.
Let's take the entrepreneurship of capitalism.
The wealth redistribution of socialism.
The production means collectivism for necessary fields.
Mix them up through direct democracy.
I'd be proud to live in such society.
Will not work. Why do you think that those who produce the goods I want somebody redistributed? Why do you think people will want to go to work in the farm if the rest will work in the office? No it is a utopia. I am sure that communism is not feasible.
Do you even read bro?
Where do you see complete communism and redistribution?
That's why we're talking about a mix...

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March 19, 2017, 02:16:18 PM
 #137

I think communism is good, but now it's impossible. Now the majority live on the principles of profit and income at any cost.
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March 19, 2017, 02:30:37 PM
 #138

In some countries comunism is a threat to religions and government. What do you think of the growth of comunism in your country?

My country Islamic countries, the applicable law is the law of Islam, the most common view is the view of Islam. So most people here regard communism is not that good. Communism does not believe in the existence of God. And here is God's presence is highly recognized. In Islam explained that all that exists in the world is God's creation, except God himself. the Quran is explained that God does not give birth and was not born, but God does exist.

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March 20, 2017, 07:04:32 AM
 #139

In some countries comunism is a threat to religions and government. What do you think of the growth of comunism in your country?

My country Islamic countries, the applicable law is the law of Islam, the most common view is the view of Islam. So most people here regard communism is not that good. Communism does not believe in the existence of God. And here is God's presence is highly recognized. In Islam explained that all that exists in the world is God's creation, except God himself. the Quran is explained that God does not give birth and was not born, but God does exist.

Yes, in Islamic countries or countries with majority Islamic population would be very opposed to communism because it did not consider God, they are atheistic ideology. Sometimes communists deny that their ideology atheist, but I'm sure it's just their way to get sympathy. Seeing communism always do in any way to achieve the goal (including violence). In my country until now strongly opposed to communism, my country has a dark history with the communists. But now in my country, communism began to appear little by little, and began to indoctrinate young people to join with communism. This is very evident in my country.
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March 20, 2017, 07:42:12 AM
 #140

Communism a ideology very intelligent, full of scathing criticism, many great figures who inspired by communism. Ir.Soekarno example even though he was not a communist, but his thinking is inspired by Marx as the founding father of communism. knife to dissect the thought of a bureaucracy and social class by Marxism. Michael Bakunin as anarcho also inspired by the thought of Marx, although there is a conflict as well. the collapse of the feudal system in Russia is also not out of the revolution that made Marx. This might be the same when viewed in the French revolution.

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