This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism

[kokjo]

on my little piece of land i will not make roads, and after that abuse others without contributing. i could also begin to take money for passing my 50 meters of road, or other complicated things.

And what will you do when I refuse to pay your toll?  Kick my ass?  Ha ha ha!

you would be trespassing on my private property. American laws(which we have not accepted, i know) says i could shoot you.

[myrkul]

Then why not just keep the money and decide what you do with your "tax" on your own?

Infrastructure. Who will pay for the roads?

You will.  You have to pay for the roads with or without a tax.  You're assuming people are too stupid to fix their own roads, and must pay a man to wear a badge and use their money to pay a private business to build the roads.  Why not cut the middle man out and fund the roads voluntarily?

on my little piece of land i will not make roads, and after that abuse others without contributing. i could also begin to take money for passing my 50 meters of road, or other complicated things.

So, what you're saying is, you'll only contribute to society if forced to, and only if others are forced to as well?

What a good little socialist.

im saying shit could get ugly, if stuff does not gets handled from a "central"-point.

its essentially game theory, there are no simple solutions.

And I'm saying there are better ways than this:


to get the money for roads. For instance, it could be ad-supported. It could be a toll road. One could even imagine a system where the road company goes onto a site like kickstarter, and asks for the money. When enough has been gathered, the road is built/repaired/etc.

[Mike Christ]

on my little piece of land i will not make roads, and after that abuse others without contributing. i could also begin to take money for passing my 50 meters of road, or other complicated things.

And what will you do when I refuse to pay your toll?  Kick my ass?  Ha ha ha!

you would be trespassing on my private property. American laws(which we have not accepted, i know) says i could shoot you.

 So you're okay with killing me for not paying you money?  Sounds like I need to avoid Denmark; you're more American than I am.

[Walter Rothbard]

Compromises must always be made. I don't think i would be happy in a libertarian society, it would be way too chaotic.

In a libertarian society, you would have the right to choose whatever society you want to live in, and choose whatever order you want.

If such choices are not open to you, then that society is not truly "libertarian."

So, for example, you can choose socialism.  What you can't do, in a libertarian society, is choose that for other people.

You could choose to pledge allegiance to the flag, or pay taxes to an institution that you believe protects and promotes order.  What you couldn't do is make that choice for other people.

I truly can't understand why anyone would have a problem with that arrangement, unless they believe that in order to be happy in life they need to get their way at the expense of other people.  We can and should be able to live by leaving each other alone, and you can live a quite ordered life.  My "disorder" shouldn't affect you.  (And in fact, in my corner of the world, I might view you as the "disordered" one. )

[Walter Rothbard]

it would be much better, if we all just decided to make roads, and then force people to pay.

What is this "we" you speak of?  Are we married?  If so, is there a procedure for divorce?

[kokjo]

on my little piece of land i will not make roads, and after that abuse others without contributing. i could also begin to take money for passing my 50 meters of road, or other complicated things.

And what will you do when I refuse to pay your toll?  Kick my ass?  Ha ha ha!

you would be trespassing on my private property. American laws(which we have not accepted, i know) says i could shoot you.

 So you're okay with killing me for not paying you money?  Sounds like I need to avoid Denmark; you're more American than I am.

under a law of a liberal society, which im opposed to, i would be allowed to put a bullet in your ass if you trespass. How else would i protect myself or my property, if i don't have a state to do it?

[kokjo]

So, for example, you can choose socialism.  What you can't do, in a libertarian society, is choose that for other people.

and what if im unhappy with that?

[Mike Christ]

under a law of a liberal society, which im opposed to, i would be allowed to put a bullet in your ass if you trespass. How else would i protect myself or my property, if i don't have a state to do it?

Remember, all I'm doing is passing by.  You're making it sound like driving on the road that happens to be there is an insult to one of your gods and I must be put to death unless I pay the kokjo's road tax.  Now that's not very nice, is it?  Tell you what; I let you drive on my road free of charge, if you'll let me drive on yours.

[kokjo]

100% happiness is not achievable, if we are not all like dank.

[myrkul]

So, for example, you can choose socialism.  What you can't do, in a libertarian society, is choose that for other people.

and what if im unhappy with that?

Then you're a bad person, and should feel bad.

[Walter Rothbard]

it would be much better

We are all entitled to our opinions about what is better in life, but that doesn't entitle us to force our opinions on other people.

I think it will be much better for you if you never spend your Bitcoin on gambling or drugs.  Should I then use force to make sure that you do what is best for you in life?  Can I use this kind of force for anything that I think is better?  Why are there some subjects where we can force what is "better," and in other subjects that would be wrong?  What if we have different opinions about what "better"s we can use force for?

It would be better if people don't smoke.  It's measurably, objectively better.  Should we use force to bring about what is better in this regard?

[Walter Rothbard]

So, for example, you can choose socialism.  What you can't do, in a libertarian society, is choose that for other people.

and what if im unhappy with that?

I don't get why you would need to force choices on other people in order to be happy in life.

And so, if you are unhappy with not having power, then I don't care to try to bring about your happiness in life.  If that's genuinely how you feel, you can just suck it, y'know?

Power truly does make people happy.  It's fun to have control over others, particularly life or death control.  It's intoxicating, and corrupting.

I'm sorry if you can't get along without it.  But that's not my problem.

[kokjo]

Tell you what; I let you drive on my road free of charge, if you'll let me drive on yours.

there are now 3 options:
A. Allow anyone to pass your road.
B. Make separate agreements with every single person on the planet
C. A road association(ie. central authority)

[cypher-punk]

Tell you what; I let you drive on my road free of charge, if you'll let me drive on yours.

there are now 3 options:
A. Allow anyone to pass your road.
B. Make separate agreements with every single person on the planet
C. A road association(ie. central authority)

Go ahead and be administrator of Jewish-Palestine...   OK?

[Walter Rothbard]

Tell you what; I let you drive on my road free of charge, if you'll let me drive on yours.

there are now 3 options:
A. Allow anyone to pass your road.
B. Make separate agreements with every single person on the planet
C. A road association(ie. central authority)

False trichotomy.

[myrkul]

Tell you what; I let you drive on my road free of charge, if you'll let me drive on yours.

there are now 3 options:
A. Allow anyone to pass your road.
B. Make separate agreements with every single person on the planet
C. A road association(ie. central authority)

What makes you think that those are the only options?

D. For-profit road company.

[kokjo]

So, for example, you can choose socialism.  What you can't do, in a libertarian society, is choose that for other people.

and what if im unhappy with that?

I'm sorry if you can't get along without it.  But that's not my problem.

so you are essentially forcing me, not to force other people?

[cypher-punk]

Which is a concept foreign to jewish people - I gather ? No ?

[Walter Rothbard]

So, for example, you can choose socialism.  What you can't do, in a libertarian society, is choose that for other people.

and what if im unhappy with that?

I'm sorry if you can't get along without it.  But that's not my problem.

so you are essentially forcing me, not to force other people?

Responding to force with force would be appropriate.  You would be the initiator, and anyone responding with force (proportionately) would be defending themselves.

[myrkul]

So, for example, you can choose socialism.  What you can't do, in a libertarian society, is choose that for other people.

and what if im unhappy with that?

I'm sorry if you can't get along without it.  But that's not my problem.

so you are essentially forcing me, not to force other people?

Well, we're not forcing you, but if you try to force other people, we'll stop you.