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Author Topic: What the price would be if there is no Bitcoin scaling in next 5 years?  (Read 1649 times)
w00t (OP)
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February 01, 2017, 05:42:17 AM
 #21



3) What happens once the block size of 1 MB is really maxed out? https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?daysAverageString=30&scale=1&timespan=all
My knowledge of economy points me to questions like - Are we going to pay $100 per transaction in fees in order to have it cleared in less than few hours/days? This is the end game of BTC miners? To make money on movement of the speculative asset?


We already live in world of lots of Blockchains. And some of them are becoming big. What will be different 5 years from now or even earlier is that The most dominating blockchain will not have such dominating share as Bitcoin have today.

I'm really curious about this one - it sort of falls back to the original thought that BTC might be eventually replaced by something more superior.

First PC game is using Bitcoin as the currency: Fallout 2
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The network tries to produce one block per 10 minutes. It does this by automatically adjusting how difficult it is to produce blocks.
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d5000
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February 01, 2017, 01:42:09 PM
 #22

Interesting thread. Myself I am thinking much about this question. I already suffered many delayed transactions - as a Bitcoin "veteran" I know what I have to do, but for a newbie it must be hell. So I think adoption could be severely hit by a continuation of the "blocksize wars".

Actually this thought was also on my mind, though in less radical version - maybe Litecoin implementing SW+LN will become a go to currency when it comes to actual buying and selling things, however as Litecoin network is not (at least yet) secure enough the coins won't stay there for long and going back to Bitcoin [...]

If LTC manages to become the main "payment network" thanks to Segwit & LN then also its security will increase drastically as there would be a massive price increase and many miners switching to it (although they then need other hardware, as far as I know).

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But then it comes back to what you originally proposed - even though LTC might be less secure in overall, are people going to bother themselves to exchange it twice? Why not just stay on the LTC?

Exactly - they would stay inside LTC and the security problem would go away.

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I never really fully understood why there was so much resistance to 2MB block or 8 MB block or other blocks (the technical constrain I don't really buy - storage as well as bandwidth is cheap and if it goes faster than Moore's law then the storage technology will followup),

The problem is bandwidth, not storage. Synchronizing a 1 TB blockchain would be only possible in a flawless way for datacenter users - home users and probably also many users living behind China's "Great Firewall" would get serious difficulties to maintain full nodes.

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Do the miners actually understand that if some 2nd or 3rd most popular crypto pickups this technology then BTC will put itself at serious disadvantage? Only then we can expect overnight switch in sentiment?

The problem is that some miners fear that Segwit would be the "final" blocksize increase on the Core roadmap and when the new 1.7 MB in capacity is filled (could happen in 1-2 years if transaction volume continues to grow like until now), we'll have worse bottlenecks than now. And some of them think Lightning would not be able to replace on-chain transactions, like seen in this interview with a ViaBTC spokesperson.

In part, I agree with this view. I would like to use on-chain transactions for middle-to large buys and sells, only for real microtransactions (like buying a coffee) LN seems acceptable to me.

I have returned to be a bit more optimistic because of this article by Rick Falkvinge about the last Satoshi Roundtable. And my view of the most promising outcome would be a multi-blockchain world with BTC in a leading role. But for this to happen, there _must_ be a block size increase, at least a continous 10-20% increase per year, as well as off-chain methods like LN for microtransactions. If this doesn't happen, forget about BTC's leading position in some years.

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w00t (OP)
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February 01, 2017, 02:41:53 PM
 #23


I have returned to be a bit more optimistic because of this article by Rick Falkvinge about the last Satoshi Roundtable. And my view of the most promising outcome would be a multi-blockchain world with BTC in a leading role. But for this to happen, there _must_ be a block size increase, at least a continous 10-20% increase per year, as well as off-chain methods like LN for microtransactions. If this doesn't happen, forget about BTC's leading position in some years.

That's positive - thx for sharing. Eventually the 2MB are probably going to happen - less hassle than the SegWit.

First PC game is using Bitcoin as the currency: Fallout 2
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d5000
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February 02, 2017, 11:23:03 AM
 #24

Eventually the 2MB are probably going to happen - less hassle than the SegWit.

I for myself would like Segwit to be activated, as I consider the Transaction Malleability fix important. It is, however, true that there are alternative proposals like Flexible Transactions that would fix it as well.

Fixed transaction malleability would enable all the much-buzzed off-chain transaction methods (Lightning Network etc.) and atomic cross-chain trading (trustless currency exchange between different blockchains, e.g. BTC to LTC). However, as already said, I consider it important to be able to do on-chain transactions if needed and for that to happen a block size increase is also "a must" when the ~1.7 MB offered by Segwit are full.

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azguard
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February 03, 2017, 10:06:25 AM
 #25

Quote
What the price would be if there is no Bitcoin scaling in next 5 years?
1BTC = 1LTC
this is what happens with 5 years of bitcoin stagnation

Not gonna happen. Price for bitcoin will be in stable 4 digits, for correct price it will be on current market demand and economy of the word more adoption more price increase. With current double price it would be just fine.



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February 03, 2017, 12:42:44 PM
 #26

lack of scaling will surely damage bitcoin in the long term, specially when it is coupled with spam attacks that cause such a huge mempool size. nobody is going to continue this way as long as fees are constantly rising, in other words those idiots who are spamming the mempool are harming bitcoin more.

but at the same time, things can not go on like this, eventually miners will be forced to accept one of the proposals or a new one in between to increase the block size.

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February 03, 2017, 01:45:00 PM
 #27

Answer: MOON  Grin

That's the spirit Grin
I'm sure this scaling/block size debate will be sorted within the next 12 months or so. I support Core but I just haven't bothered to upgrade my wallet. I'm still running 0.12.1, I'm sure there are lots more like me.

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February 03, 2017, 02:24:36 PM
 #28

Quote
What the price would be if there is no Bitcoin scaling in next 5 years?
1BTC = 1LTC
this is what happens with 5 years of bitcoin stagnation

Don't dream about LTC=BTC, it was dreamed by so many miners in 2013, but the truth is after 2013 huge spike of LTC price(0.05 ATH), LTC has been constantly dumped, now is below 0.004 btc per ltc. LTC has no future, only BTC is the future, even if BTC is stagnant in 5 years.
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February 03, 2017, 02:39:15 PM
 #29

I don't really think it will make too much difference to the price.

The price is 99% speculation at the moment, Bitcoin couldn't be used as a currency as it is now, it doesn't have the capacity.
I can see the problem remaining unsolved, thus making Bitcoin unusable by the masses, but the speculation will continue to ignore that and keep the price rising.

I don't know what the long term answer is, I am sure it isn't litecoin though!  Hopefully greed doesn't win the day and stop Bitcoin from developing into the coin that it should become, but often times that is what happens.
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February 03, 2017, 08:58:37 PM
 #30

The price is 99% speculation at the moment, Bitcoin couldn't be used as a currency as it is now, it doesn't have the capacity.
I can see the problem remaining unsolved, thus making Bitcoin unusable by the masses, but the speculation will continue to ignore that and keep the price rising.

The problem is that you need a "story" for speculation to work. In the case of Bitcoin the bulls tell us often some kind of "mass adoption story", like: "Cyprus people use Bitcoin to escape savings tax" (2013), "Chinese people using BTC to evade currency controls" (2016), "Trump will crash the markets and people will go into BTC" (2017) and so on.

If you think a bit about these stories, they are all totally unrealistic, as the blockchain capacity isn't enough even for e.g. 1/1000 of all Mexicans trying to evade Trump's planned remittance taxes. In the past, it was easy to make people believe this hype stories though, because nobody felt the blockchain was full.

This time it is different - most Bitcoiners have already experienced problems with delayed transactions in late 2016 and early 2017. So the myth of a mass adoption has become not exactly more credible. And if the developers don't find a solution, then we will crash hard.


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