DESIGNING the next generation FAST CRYPTO CURRENCY MINING MACHINE

[pizza]

Litecoin is def. The way to go if you are going to invest that kind of money. Litecoin is bitcoins baby brother, I think the bitcoin market in a year is going to be so saturated and difficulty so high you ill literally need hardware thats 100x as fast as today.

[bitbitcoincoin]

i say that. first of all amd gpu can be bought almost everywhere today. asic can not. second: security of btc is in numbers of people mining not just th/s. asic will consolidate miners, few large ones will remain, and that makes network weaker. ultimately if there was just one miner left standing, would you consider btc safe? no? even if he had gazzilionH/s? still no?

even if there will be 1000 asic miners left which i doubt it would still be worse than ltc network with 10000 gpu miners.

the point of crypto currency is decentralisation. asic is the force to the opposite.

You really don't make any good points as to why average Joes need to be mining.  We're talking about 100,000 ASIC miners by the end of the year with Avalon and BFL both likely shipping as well as whatever ASICMINER puts out on top of any another companies that come out between now and then.  Your fears of "one miner standing" are highly unfounded, the pool will be smaller than if "GPU mining only" existed but still large enough and continue to grow.

GPU miners are not the backbone of bitcoin as much as some of you in this thread seem to think you are.  MINERS are the backbone of bitcoin, whether they be GPU or ASIC based does not matter to the overall success of the coin.  It's adaption by vendors and users, two groups which have no need to do any mining, will determine whether or not it succeeds.

[MooC Tals]

i say that. first of all amd gpu can be bought almost everywhere today. asic can not. second: security of btc is in numbers of people mining not just th/s. asic will consolidate miners, few large ones will remain, and that makes network weaker. ultimately if there was just one miner left standing, would you consider btc safe? no? even if he had gazzilionH/s? still no?

even if there will be 1000 asic miners left which i doubt it would still be worse than ltc network with 10000 gpu miners.

the point of crypto currency is decentralisation. asic is the force to the opposite.

You really don't make any good points as to why average Joes need to be mining.  We're talking about 100,000 ASIC miners by the end of the year with Avalon and BFL both likely shipping as well as whatever ASICMINER puts out on top of any another companies that come out between now and then.  Your fears of "one miner standing" are highly unfounded, the pool will be smaller than if "GPU mining only" existed but still large enough and continue to grow.

GPU miners are not the backbone of bitcoin as much as some of you in this thread seem to think you are.  MINERS are the backbone of bitcoin, whether they be GPU or ASIC based does not matter to the overall success of the coin.  It's adaption by vendors and users, two groups which have no need to do any mining, will determine whether or not it succeeds.

I disagree with you sir. That was one of the fundamentals of bitcoin as it has slowly eroded to satisfy peoples inability to compete.

[bitbitcoincoin]

I disagree with you sir. That was one of the fundamentals of bitcoin as it has slowly eroded to satisfy peoples inability to compete.

Your argument falls flat on it's face when you look at bitcoin becoming globally accepted.  How do people in other countries "compete" when they cannot even afford simple GPU set ups many miners currently use?   Mining was always going to be a highly specialized field, not the "everyone who uses bitcoin also mines for profit" utopia you seem to envision. 

Honestly reading through the replies this just seems to be alot of sour grapes that the boat is passing them by, those that can't afford to get in ASICs see their potential profits being taken away and are understandably upset.  There will be alt coins for GPU miners once enough ASICs go online and "price you out", but bitcoin will continue to be a thriving cryptocurrency as long as vendors and users keep joining.  Be thankful you were mining on a GPU when you were and made what you made, many didn't even get that far.

[MooC Tals]

Sour grapes? Woh! I have no skin in this game. I'm presently in litecoin. I'm not arguing I'm putting my opinions out there and it seems to not to be your liking. I sense a bit of elitism in your tone.

You seem to have forgotten one thing and that is people will lose interest in a game they can't win at. How are you going to have the global population adopt something they can't afford? Asic's may be affordable now they will eventually be more and more specialized and less people in control of it. You think everyone here would be interested in asic's if they first came out? No it was mine on your CPU and get rich.

Now its if you want to stay in the game you need to buy this product that does only one thing. I'm mining litecoins and will until I can't make money after that I'll do something else other than mining and guess what happens to my wallet? Then guess what happens to many other wallets. This is just a scenario. One scenario you refuse to see.

In the end unless people mine it they won't use it. The rise in price is only due to speculation and the miners need to profit for their work. Less miners and you get less people using the money. Unless the government adopts it and makes it legal and tax it. Then businesses will adopt it and it becomes what we hate now the reason why we mine bitcoins in the first place DECENTRALIZED CURRENCY. Then who will want bitcoin? maybe a few but it will just become what we are running from.

centralized and dominated and controlled by the few with too much.

This is my opinion

[Lacan82]

Seems as though my posts have been deleted by the OP, which is quite hypocritical to what bitcoin is really all about, freedom and decentralization. The OP only wants favorable posts to bolster his position without regarding feedback and criticism.

If this is how he wants to operate, then so be it. His venture here will ultimately fail and not be of any value. I don't even see how this benefits anyone else besides the OP.

I can be certain that he will delete this post upon discovery as well. 

OP deleted posts to clean up the thread. Not to silence you.

[bitbitcoincoin]

Sour grapes? Woh! I have no skin in this game. I'm presently in litecoin. I'm not arguing I'm putting my opinions out there and it seems to not to be your liking. I sense a bit of elitism in your tone.

You seem to have forgotten one thing and that is people will lose interest in a game they can't win at. How are you going to have the global population adopt something they can't afford? Asic's may be affordable now they will eventually be more and more specialized and less people in control of it. You think everyone here would be interested in asic's if they first came out? No it was mine on your CPU and get rich.

Now its if you want to stay in the game you need to buy this product that does only one thing. I'm mining litecoins and will until I can't make money after that I'll do something else other than mining and guess what happens to my wallet? Then guess what happens to many other wallets. This is just a scenario. One scenario you refuse to see.

In the end unless people mine it they won't use it. The rise in price is only due to speculation and the miners need to profit for their work. Less miners and you get less people using the money. Unless the government adopts it and makes it legal and tax it. Then businesses will adopt it and it becomes what we hate now the reason why we mine bitcoins in the first place DECENTRALIZED CURRENCY. Then who will want bitcoin? maybe a few but it will just become what we are running from.

centralized and dominated and controlled by the few with too much.

This is my opinion

Again you are assuming people have to mine to use bitcoin, which is just flat out untrue.  There will always be enough miners to keep the system going, as the orders for ASICs have shown us.  There is no shortage of people willing to pay the costs to continue to mine bitcoin, it will just be fewer than were able to when GPU mining was profitable.   More and more online vendors are taking bitcoin every day, and they have no need whatsoever to even think about mining a bitcoin.   Miners are important, they aren't the only part of bitcoin however.

Maybe that's how litecoin works, and if so great we'll have litecoin be the "miners only" cryptocurrency.  Bitcoin however has bigger goals with broad usage among the developing world being a primary one.  These users will never have a chance to mine even if mining stayed GPU only, but will have a chance to reap the same benefits all users of bitcoin as a currency enjoy.

[MooC Tals]

Question are you willing to be taxed for using bitcoins? Mining it tax and spending tax and transfer tax.

Lets not kid ourselves here, you want bitcoins to be accepted by government right? and most important of all Vendors as that seems to be you're most important player in the game. Before all vendors accept Bitcoins with all its disadvantages government will need to regulate it for the security of the economy and global markets. Then the internet will require less anonymity to access and conduct affairs for business.

Just want everyone to have this reality check.

[Signus]

I'm going to go through all the posts and remove the useful info and re-write the OP.  Be patient, let people talk.  Unless you know it all....

This is the way forums are. Let them bicker until they realize they're getting angry over practically nothing, or at least until you give them beer ^_^

The way I see it mining BTC isn't dead to the average user, or the GPU miner, or anyone. Just the ability to make a large amount of cash based off our our current understanding of the trends in the market. Our GPU rigs may be powerful, but they suck up massive amounts of energy and produce a lot of heat. Those with FPGA's will just see the declining profit margin and may never be able to achieve ROI.

However mining won't die unless everyone gives up.

Remember - cryptocurrencies were created for lack of government regulation, and in this case our profits and the market is being regulated by the creation of these companies like Avalon or BFL. Any currency is dominated by the people who want the most out of it.

[E3V3A]

Surprised at my own ignorance and the apparent lack of reaction of knowledgeable readers of this thread, I found out about PPCoin (PPC). Apparently PPC tries to solve the mining HW race problem, by not only minting by proof-of-work (which is HW minable), but also by proof-of-stake (which allows for long-term average-Joe profit). They have their own forum HERE.

I strongly recommend everyone to have a look at the following 2 papers:

1. "Synthetic Commodity Money" [George Selgin, 2013]
2. "PPCoin: Peer-to-Peer Crypto-Currency with Proof-of-Stake" [S.King and S.Nadal, 2012]

After having briefly read the above articles, I am more convinced of the decline of Bitcoin as described in the OP. Although, Bitcoin may very well be a great currency for the next couple of years, the number of miners will steadily go down until we are eventually left with commercial mining operators (like already mentioned) and a small hard-core group of amateurs, mining mostly out of academic interest and not-for-profit. Therefore, it seem fair to say that a crypto-currency based on a more evenly distributed minting process (e.g. as proposed by PPC) will eventually take over.

For a complete list of other crypto-currencies look HERE.

[qbits]

I disagree with you sir. That was one of the fundamentals of bitcoin as it has slowly eroded to satisfy peoples inability to compete.

Your argument falls flat on it's face when you look at bitcoin becoming globally accepted.  How do people in other countries "compete" when they cannot even afford simple GPU set ups many miners currently use?   Mining was always going to be a highly specialized field, not the "everyone who uses bitcoin also mines for profit" utopia you seem to envision. 

Honestly reading through the replies this just seems to be alot of sour grapes that the boat is passing them by, those that can't afford to get in ASICs see their potential profits being taken away and are understandably upset.  There will be alt coins for GPU miners once enough ASICs go online and "price you out", but bitcoin will continue to be a thriving cryptocurrency as long as vendors and users keep joining.  Be thankful you were mining on a GPU when you were and made what you made, many didn't even get that far.

nope. bitcoin was developed from the idea that most users or shall i say all users mine.

just like with bittorent all users serve files. again strenght is in decentralization. your notion of professional miners runs against the idea of decentralized - distributed transaction confirming network. it is against the original bitcoin idea. but hey nothing here is set in stone right?

i can afford an asic. in fact i bought one. so from my point of view i still can make some money. but still i don't think asic is a good idea for bitcoin.

[bitbitcoincoin]

nope. bitcoin was developed from the idea that most users or shall i say all users mine.

just like with bittorent all users serve files. again strenght is in decentralization. your notion of professional miners runs against the idea of decentralized - distributed transaction confirming network. it is against the original bitcoin idea. but hey nothing here is set in stone right?

i can afford an asic. in fact i bought one. so from my point of view i still can make some money. but still i don't think asic is a good idea for bitcoin.

That IMO is a impossible idea to achieve as the vast majority of the world does not own a PC with a GPU let alone an entire rig to "compete" with what most miners pump out now. Mining will always be specialized when taking the "bigger picture" look at things.  Bitcoin mining has always been the more power a user can produce the more they can mine.  It's just operated under the assumption that enough people will be mining so that one person can't take over the network, which so far will continue to be the case due to the vast number of ASIC orders from just the initial batches alone.

The network will still be decentralized, it will just be on ASICs instead of GPUs so the pool will shrink at the start.  As you can tell as someone who's bought a ASIC, it will not just be centralized groups, it will still be individual miners such as yourself.  That pool could easily increase however, if the price of bitcoin increases as the difficulty goes up making ASIC mining still profitable for those who get in "late".  All of the charts currently projecting ASIC ROI vs difficulty all assume a stable price(which has already increased to 139 as I type).  If enough venders, buyers and speculators continue to adopt and use bitcoin we could even see GPU mining continue some profitability regardless of the drastic difficulty increase.

Of course the reverse could happen, and BTC could crash and become worthless thereby making ASIC purchasers SoL.  It's a risk that's debatable whether it's still worth taking, but sometimes with big risk comes big rewards.  I just feel the position held by the OP that the ASICs signal the death of bitcion is far fetched, and you've done little to sway my opinion.  Bitcoin has always been something that will either turn out to be huge, or end up worth nothing.

[aqrulesms]

Once again, since you keep deleting my posts, let me make this clear.

Your ambitions on building a "next-generation" crypto currency mining machine will simply not work out. How many people would you actually expect to help out on this project? It takes millions of dollars just for the R&D phase, let alone assembly and whatever else.

Who will provide those millions of dollars in capital? How can people trust you with what minuscule credibility you have? People want to see someone that has real experience in logic design and that they know what they are talking about. You have shown nothing.

In face, you have shown yourself to be unable to be respectful to others in this thread, instead you even continually insult and delete my posts as well as other posts that are perfectly fine, which you should have no reason to.

Why not accept well-rounded criticism to your project?

inb4youdeleteitagain.

[Lacan82]

Once again, since you keep deleting my posts, let me make this clear.

Your ambitions on building a "next-generation" crypto currency mining machine will simply not work out. How many people would you actually expect to help out on this project? It takes millions of dollars just for the R&D phase, let alone assembly and whatever else.

Who will provide those millions of dollars in capital? How can people trust you with what minuscule credibility you have? People want to see someone that has real experience in logic design and that they know what they are talking about. You have shown nothing.

In face, you have shown yourself to be unable to be respectful to others in this thread, instead you even continually insult and delete my posts as well as other posts that are perfectly fine, which you should have no reason to.

Why not accept well-rounded criticism to your project?

inb4youdeleteitagain.

As the ABOVE posts, Viceroy deleted EVERYONE's post to clean up the thread. NOT to Silence you

[aqrulesms]

Once again, since you keep deleting my posts, let me make this clear.

Your ambitions on building a "next-generation" crypto currency mining machine will simply not work out. How many people would you actually expect to help out on this project? It takes millions of dollars just for the R&D phase, let alone assembly and whatever else.

Who will provide those millions of dollars in capital? How can people trust you with what minuscule credibility you have? People want to see someone that has real experience in logic design and that they know what they are talking about. You have shown nothing.

In face, you have shown yourself to be unable to be respectful to others in this thread, instead you even continually insult and delete my posts as well as other posts that are perfectly fine, which you should have no reason to.

Why not accept well-rounded criticism to your project?

inb4youdeleteitagain.

As the ABOVE posts, Viceroy deleted EVERYONE's post to clean up the thread. NOT to Silence you

Well, it would seem as though were posts were quite informative, yet he still deleted it. Meanwhile, he did not delete your previous reply. What does that say about that?

I already know he is being ignorant towards others.

[aqrulesms]

I'm going to go through all the posts and remove the useful info and re-write the OP.  Be patient, let people talk.  Unless you know it all....

And if you want people to read what you wrote you should learn better use of the "quote" function.

Apparently there's a lot of other "useful" information that you did not delete. Looks like you need to learn better use of your thread moderation powers.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, why delete useful information? That would greatly benefit people's learning and background of your project.

[Viceroy]

because people can't digest 20 pages of nonsense.  I'll take what I need from the posts and then modify the OP.  Then I'll erase all the posts and see what people think of my edits.  I think I can manage this thread, fwiw.  ;-)

[qbits]

Even after NAT?

what do you mean? what I said has nothing to do with nat.

[aqrulesms]

because people can't digest 20 pages of nonsense.  I'll take what I need from the posts and then modify the OP.  Then I'll erase all the posts and see what people think of my edits.  I think I can manage this thread, fwiw.  ;-)

Indeed, your original post is in great need of revision. It's hard to read the wall of text, and you should instead format the sections differently. I think instead of using rhetoric you should focus more on separating into different sections, especially the beginning.

[Lacan82]

Even after NAT?

u

what do you mean? what I said has nothing to do with nat.

I'm assuming you mean /19 network as in PRIVATE. It has everything to do with NAT if that is the case. because when you send data outside your broadcast domain NAT happens via default gateway