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Author Topic: Bitcoin is a flawed technology  (Read 4618 times)
cbeast
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April 20, 2013, 03:14:20 PM
 #21

It's wonderful you hold these societies in such high esteem. Surely they will bring your salvation when the barbarians are darkening your doorway as has happened to every civilization in history. Your politicians and economists have the answers you are looking for.

Either that or humanity will die out.
It's always been the freedom-fighters and paradigm-shifting philosphers that have led the revolutions and evolution of every new social system. In fact, they are the ones that pay the highest price to defend humanity against itself. It's your politicians and economists that shy away from progress and lead toward austerity and a more Modest Proposal.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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April 20, 2013, 03:20:49 PM
 #22

It's wonderful you hold these societies in such high esteem. Surely they will bring your salvation when the barbarians are darkening your doorway as has happened to every civilization in history. Your politicians and economists have the answers you are looking for.

Either that or humanity will die out.
It's always been the freedom-fighters and paradigm-shifting philosphers that have led the revolutions and evolution of every new social system. In fact, they are the ones that pay the highest price to defend humanity against itself. It's your politicians and economists that shy away from progress and lead toward austerity and a more Modest Proposal.

Those freedom fighters didn't hoard tokens to inherit their decedents for them to become the new elite.
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April 20, 2013, 03:54:56 PM
 #23

You don't actually need a copy of the whole blockchain!

You only need the recent part of it that deals with the bitcoins you own or receiving or storing.

Right now, everyone stores the whole thing because the blockchain is still pretty small.

But as time goes on, it is likely that the average user won't hold the whole blockchain on only large servers or "bank"-like entities will keep the whole thing.

Excelent, if this is correct, lets do it!

The whole thing could be made avalible as a download by the offical site and backed up elsewhere, maybe as well as being stored in a way that makes it's size more logarithmic over time.

But clients that are designed to exist all over the place, maybe even web clients like most exchanges, they need only store what they use as they use it.

﹏﹏﹋﹌﹌ WPP ENERGY ﹌﹌﹋﹏﹏
≈ WORLD POWER PRODUCTION ≈

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cbeast
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April 20, 2013, 03:59:32 PM
 #24

It's wonderful you hold these societies in such high esteem. Surely they will bring your salvation when the barbarians are darkening your doorway as has happened to every civilization in history. Your politicians and economists have the answers you are looking for.

Either that or humanity will die out.
It's always been the freedom-fighters and paradigm-shifting philosphers that have led the revolutions and evolution of every new social system. In fact, they are the ones that pay the highest price to defend humanity against itself. It's your politicians and economists that shy away from progress and lead toward austerity and a more Modest Proposal.

Those freedom fighters didn't hoard tokens to inherit their decedents for them to become the new elite.
Are you saying that politicians don't hoard money for their progeny?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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April 20, 2013, 04:06:39 PM
 #25

Bitcoin isn't a flawed technology.
It is just not designed to function as a practical system to build a society on. It was meant as a proof of concept and was hijacked by a weird libertarian cargo cult.
Right. Hijacked.

Quote from: Genesis Block
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
[Bitcoin is] very attractive to the libertarian viewpoint if we can explain it properly. I'm better with code than with words though.

Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto
Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own.

Ok maybe it was Bitcoin which hijacked libertarianism.  Wink
I mean there is a certain appeal of Anarchism and Cyberpunk for Libertarians out there, but that doesn't make it the same thing. (Even if you guys to claim you are Anarcho-Capitalists you are not)

I was under the impression that this label "Anarcho-Capitalist" applied to me. If that is infact not the case i would be interested in learning why. Would you be so kind as to explain your position with a bit more detail?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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April 20, 2013, 04:15:30 PM
 #26

It's wonderful you hold these societies in such high esteem. Surely they will bring your salvation when the barbarians are darkening your doorway as has happened to every civilization in history. Your politicians and economists have the answers you are looking for.

Either that or humanity will die out.
It's always been the freedom-fighters and paradigm-shifting philosphers that have led the revolutions and evolution of every new social system. In fact, they are the ones that pay the highest price to defend humanity against itself. It's your politicians and economists that shy away from progress and lead toward austerity and a more Modest Proposal.

Those freedom fighters didn't hoard tokens to inherit their decedents for them to become the new elite.
Are you saying that politicians don't hoard money for their progeny?

Are you saying they are freedom fighters?
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April 20, 2013, 04:22:47 PM
 #27

I was under the impression that this label "Anarcho-Capitalist" applied to me. If that is infact not the case i would be interested in learning why. Would you be so kind as to explain your position with a bit more detail?

I don't know, I am not really familiar with your views.

To elaborate: Libertarianism puts the concept of ownership and contracts under the hood of "freedoms" which is inherently flawed.
The crux of the matter is that both are subject to power and the use of force, and they cannot exist with out it. Anarchism threats this in an agnostic way while Libertarians are dependent to take them for granted or their ideology falls apart.
cbeast
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April 20, 2013, 04:23:21 PM
 #28

It's wonderful you hold these societies in such high esteem. Surely they will bring your salvation when the barbarians are darkening your doorway as has happened to every civilization in history. Your politicians and economists have the answers you are looking for.

Either that or humanity will die out.
It's always been the freedom-fighters and paradigm-shifting philosphers that have led the revolutions and evolution of every new social system. In fact, they are the ones that pay the highest price to defend humanity against itself. It's your politicians and economists that shy away from progress and lead toward austerity and a more Modest Proposal.

Those freedom fighters didn't hoard tokens to inherit their decedents for them to become the new elite.
Are you saying that politicians don't hoard money for their progeny?

Are you saying they are freedom fighters?
Yes. Bitcoiners are non-violent freedom fighters. Bitcoiners don't hoard like politicians, they don't brainwash populations like economists, and they don't build WMD's like scientists. Their battleground is virtual and their ammunition is cognitive dissonance.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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April 20, 2013, 04:28:35 PM
 #29

It's wonderful you hold these societies in such high esteem. Surely they will bring your salvation when the barbarians are darkening your doorway as has happened to every civilization in history. Your politicians and economists have the answers you are looking for.

Either that or humanity will die out.
It's always been the freedom-fighters and paradigm-shifting philosphers that have led the revolutions and evolution of every new social system. In fact, they are the ones that pay the highest price to defend humanity against itself. It's your politicians and economists that shy away from progress and lead toward austerity and a more Modest Proposal.

Those freedom fighters didn't hoard tokens to inherit their decedents for them to become the new elite.
Are you saying that politicians don't hoard money for their progeny?

Are you saying they are freedom fighters?
Yes. Bitcoiners are non-violent freedom fighters. Bitcoiners don't hoard like politicians, they don't brainwash populations like economists, and they don't build WMD's like scientists. Their battleground is virtual and their ammunition is cognitive dissonance.

I reject your concept of freedom.

also see
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April 20, 2013, 04:35:17 PM
 #30

I was under the impression that this label "Anarcho-Capitalist" applied to me. If that is infact not the case i would be interested in learning why. Would you be so kind as to explain your position with a bit more detail?

I don't know, I am not really familiar with your views.
Gotta love when people admit they're speaking from a position of ignorance.

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April 20, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
 #31

I was under the impression that this label "Anarcho-Capitalist" applied to me. If that is infact not the case i would be interested in learning why. Would you be so kind as to explain your position with a bit more detail?

I don't know, I am not really familiar with your views.
Gotta love when people admit they're speaking from a position of ignorance.

That was meant on a personal level, not meant for the association to Libertarianism or "AnaCap"
Yes, I think I do know your personal views well enough.
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April 20, 2013, 04:57:52 PM
 #32

Why is this thread under Economics?

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April 20, 2013, 05:00:36 PM
 #33

Flawed also:

Easy to fake/spam and limited:
- tcp/ip
- dns
- email

Inefficient:
- Ethernet protocol, invented in the 80s, considered as being obsolete a long time ago

Bitcoin is not going to get superseded by any "better" currency (good luck finding all that crypto power btc already has)

As with DNS, email and pretty much any other Internet protocol, services can work on top of what's already out there: dnssec, encrypted email, ip masquerading etc.
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April 20, 2013, 05:39:24 PM
 #34

I wrote in depth about Moore's law this year for English. And while it's true that it was "just an observation 40 years ago," people have done plot studies of exactly how accurate Moore's law has been (read: The Singularity is Near by Ray Kuzweil).
  In addition to the astounding accuracy of Moore's law, the general implications of the axiom hold true for nearly every technology from the past to the future. Much before Moore's law (or even Gordon Moore himself) existed, there were various paradigms of technology (read: vacuum tubes, transistors, etc.). Because of the obvious path for technological innovation, new technologies will arise and continue to follow Moore's law.

In fact, HP already uses platinum latch technology for printer cartridges and is working on moving that technology over to IC's. And at the same time, companies like Intel and IBM are putting a ton of work into carbon nanotubes. The future is literally unfathomable. Following your closed-minded notions, it's easily understandable why people in the 80's thought computers would always be room-sized.

RE: BitCloud

I am just thinking about it logically, ignoring any historical precedents. "The past doesnt predict the future." Correct logic predicts the future. If someone invented a new mechanism of storage that was more efficient than magnetic or flash in memory storage, it still wouldnt change the logical premise that there is a hard limit to how much data can be stored on a chip or, lets just say, 'storage device', and therefore bitcoin is theoretically flawed, because the size of the blockchain will never stop growing over time. Of course there may be some 'out of this world' technology that comes along which cannot be even imagined right now, that makes storage unlimited and therefore bitcoin feasible. Maybe a bit like nuclear fusion supposedly makes energy unlimited. That is a big , crazy assumption.

Practically, if the blockchain keeps growing at the current rate, i think we're going to see some real problems with scalability of bitcoin in the much more closer future - before flash or magnetic storage is superseeded - i'm talking about in the next 6 months.

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April 20, 2013, 05:48:48 PM
 #35

Practically, if the blockchain keeps growing at the current rate, i think we're going to see some real problems with scalability of bitcoin in the much more closer future - before flash or magnetic storage is superseeded - i'm talking about in the next 6 months.

The tubes! They will be clogged by the blockchain!

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April 20, 2013, 05:55:24 PM
 #36

Flawed also:

Easy to fake/spam and limited:
- tcp/ip
- dns
- email

Inefficient:
- Ethernet protocol, invented in the 80s, considered as being obsolete a long time ago

Bitcoin is not going to get superseded by any "better" currency (good luck finding all that crypto power btc already has)

As with DNS, email and pretty much any other Internet protocol, services can work on top of what's already out there: dnssec, encrypted email, ip masquerading etc.


Bitcoin isn't a standard nor a technology. It's a concrete implementation which was meant as a proof of concept.
This would be like if we were using cern httpd.
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April 20, 2013, 06:48:39 PM
 #37

Public service ; User "Xavier" was on ignore list prior to this post.
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April 20, 2013, 07:51:04 PM
 #38

I was under the impression that this label "Anarcho-Capitalist" applied to me. If that is infact not the case i would be interested in learning why. Would you be so kind as to explain your position with a bit more detail?

I don't know, I am not really familiar with your views.

To elaborate: Libertarianism puts the concept of ownership and contracts under the hood of "freedoms" which is inherently flawed.
The crux of the matter is that both are subject to power and the use of force, and they cannot exist with out it. Anarchism threats this in an agnostic way while Libertarians are dependent to take them for granted or their ideology falls apart.

ah yea deontological libertarins can be a little bit silly at times. To me property is nothing more than a useful construct that we as a society use to avoid conflict. You know since 2 people can not both eat the same apple, we can either chose to fight over it or we can establish some sort of property norm. To me the state is the former and i personally prefer the latter.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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April 20, 2013, 08:00:48 PM
 #39

I wrote in depth about Moore's law this year for English. And while it's true that it was "just an observation 40 years ago," people have done plot studies of exactly how accurate Moore's law has been (read: The Singularity is Near by Ray Kuzweil).
  In addition to the astounding accuracy of Moore's law, the general implications of the axiom hold true for nearly every technology from the past to the future. Much before Moore's law (or even Gordon Moore himself) existed, there were various paradigms of technology (read: vacuum tubes, transistors, etc.). Because of the obvious path for technological innovation, new technologies will arise and continue to follow Moore's law.

In fact, HP already uses platinum latch technology for printer cartridges and is working on moving that technology over to IC's. And at the same time, companies like Intel and IBM are putting a ton of work into carbon nanotubes. The future is literally unfathomable. Following your closed-minded notions, it's easily understandable why people in the 80's thought computers would always be room-sized.

RE: BitCloud

I am just thinking about it logically, ignoring any historical precedents. "The past doesnt predict the future." Correct logic predicts the future. If someone invented a new mechanism of storage that was more efficient than magnetic or flash in memory storage, it still wouldnt change the logical premise that there is a hard limit to how much data can be stored on a chip or, lets just say, 'storage device', and therefore bitcoin is theoretically flawed, because the size of the blockchain will never stop growing over time. Of course there may be some 'out of this world' technology that comes along which cannot be even imagined right now, that makes storage unlimited and therefore bitcoin feasible. Maybe a bit like nuclear fusion supposedly makes energy unlimited. That is a big , crazy assumption.

Practically, if the blockchain keeps growing at the current rate, i think we're going to see some real problems with scalability of bitcoin in the much more closer future - before flash or magnetic storage is superseeded - i'm talking about in the next 6 months.



That is an absolutely absurd time line for the average user to run out of space for the block chain. I understand that you firmly believe the block chain growth will out pace the produced storage space (theoretically), but there already exists enough storage space on the average computer to hold the block chain for years to come (and you can quote me on that). In addition to that, storage will continue to increase at an increasing rate (read: exponential growth) through this paradigm and onto the next (it's true that the past doesn't predict the future, but it gives a damn good idea). Once a simple method for truncating the block chain has been distributed, the storage argument won't even be valid anymore.
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April 20, 2013, 08:01:27 PM
 #40

I was under the impression that this label "Anarcho-Capitalist" applied to me. If that is infact not the case i would be interested in learning why. Would you be so kind as to explain your position with a bit more detail?

I don't know, I am not really familiar with your views.

To elaborate: Libertarianism puts the concept of ownership and contracts under the hood of "freedoms" which is inherently flawed.
The crux of the matter is that both are subject to power and the use of force, and they cannot exist with out it. Anarchism threats this in an agnostic way while Libertarians are dependent to take them for granted or their ideology falls apart.

ah yea deontological libertarins can be a little bit silly at times. To me property is nothing more than a useful construct that we as a society use to avoid conflict. You know since 2 people can not both eat the same apple, we can either chose to fight over it or we can establish some sort of property norm. To me the state is the former and i personally prefer the latter.

They can both eat half an apple.

And there is force involved every time, alone the task of grasping the apple is a subject to potential conflict.
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