Roger Ver and Jon Matonis pushed aside now that Bitcoin is becoming mainstream

[gweedo]

The Foundation amongst others are just trying to mainstream the Bitcoin and they are taking a very conservative approach.

Exactly we don't need a foundation that wants to censor great people like Roger Ver and Jon Matonis, we need a foundation that will take bitcoin to the next level without worrying about politics.

See everyone the bitcoin foundation is already corrupting the newbies of the forum what next corrupt the media. They are hurting bitcoin.

[justusranvier]

I'm willing to refrain from campaigning to oust them as developers if they are willing to refrain from campaigning to oust Ver and Matonis as public faces of Bitcoin.

So you prioritise two people (excluding Roger Ver here) who are clearly harmful to Bitcoin's viability, one of whom (Erik Voorhees) goes so far as to operate a technological attack on the Bitcoin network.. over three competent developers who actually contribute toward making Bitcoin better and hopefully successful.

Comments like that make me feel like I'm in no danger of actually needing to keep that promise.

[charleshoskinson]

Exactly we don't need a foundation that wants to censor great people like Roger Ver and Jon Matonis, we need a foundation that will take bitcoin to the next level without worrying about politics.

See everyone the bitcoin foundation is already corrupting the newbies of the forum what next corrupt the media. They are hurting bitcoin.

What do you suggest we do? If the United States wanted to kill the bitcoin, then it would be dead in three months. We cannot create a common perception amongst the world that the bitcoin is at best a libertarian playtoy and at worst the newest high tech way to move drug money around.

We at this stage need to do two things. First, we need a clear, articulate, and crowdsourced introduction to the bitcoin that is globally accessible. Second, we need message discipline with how we introduce the Bitcoin to the public.

I don't like censorship. I don't like exclusion. And I will not support anyone who does it. We as a community should give Jon and Roger an opportunity to share their vast knowledge of Bitcoins with the world, but the foundation is not the platform for them to do so. We should construct another platform.

I think the best place for Jon and Roger is a brand new institute/think tank like Ludwig von Mises that specializes in developing the economy theory necessary for academics to understand the Bitcoin.

[Luke-Jr]

What do you suggest we do? If the United States wanted to kill the bitcoin, then it would be dead in three months. We cannot create a common perception amongst the world that the bitcoin is at best a libertarian playtoy and at worst the newest high tech way to move drug money around.

This is so false, sounds like someone needs to read the wiki... Don't spread FUD

No, charleshoskinson is correct.
The USA could kill Bitcoin rather easily today.

[charleshoskinson]

I will address your post

First

This is so false, sounds like someone needs to read the wiki... Don't spread FUD

The United States is constructing this facility in Utah

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/

This should give you an idea of how powerful the federal government is. If they decide to invest in an ASIC fueled 51% attack alongside a huge surge in DDOSes to every website supporting the bitcoin, then they will be successful. Second, if the US government passed regulation equating the Bitcoin to money laundering and used international agreements to prevent currency exchanges from converting Bitcoins to fiat currencies, then bitcoins have become cocaine. A black market with hefty punishment for use. I cannot buy everything I need in life with just bitcoins. Bitmit and others are working hard, but not today.

The Bitcoin network is not powerful and known enough to prevent this from happening. I'm sorry you don't understand that.  

First and only stage is we need to get people to do there own research on bitcoin, it is impossible to introduction a complex bitcoin in a news piece, but instead allow people to go on there own and do research and experiment on there own with bitcoins.

There were a lot of people who said this about the Internet. They wanted it to be a playground for nerds. I'd refer you to Danny Hillis's Ted lecture about the beginning of the internet: http://www.ted.com/talks/danny_hillis_the_internet_could_crash_we_need_a_plan_b.html

I want our currency to change the world. Not to be something special for a technologically inclined elite.

We could easily create another platform, but they have control of the bitcoin.org, and the bitcoin client it be a uphill battle the entire way up.

Do they run Mtgox and the mining pools? Power is distributive and based upon results and community involvement. No one can stop another platform from developing and it will quickly destroy any platform shown to be exclusive.

Again no, for the same reasons above.

There needs to be an economic institute for the Bitcoin. I do not want the Paul Krugmans out there to poison academic opinion for something they do not understand.

[mikegogulski]

Exactly we don't need a foundation that wants to censor great people like Roger Ver and Jon Matonis, we need a foundation that will take bitcoin to the next level without worrying about politics.

See everyone the bitcoin foundation is already corrupting the newbies of the forum what next corrupt the media. They are hurting bitcoin.

I don't like censorship. I don't like exclusion. And I will not support anyone who does it. We as a community should give Jon and Roger an opportunity to share their vast knowledge of Bitcoins with the world, but the foundation is not the platform for them to do so. We should construct another platform.

I think the best place for Jon and Roger is a brand new institute/think tank like Ludwig von Mises that specializes in developing the economy theory necessary for academics to understand the Bitcoin.

Speaking as a life member of the Bitcoin Foundation who joined it because Jon Matonis is a Board member, I'm getting a real laugh out of some of these comments. Run for the hills! Jon Matonis is censoring himself! etc.

The foundation isn't censoring anyone. Those actions came from Luke-jr, jgarzik and gmaxwell... which is odd, because nowhere can I find a reason that those three should be able to come along and quash anything to do with the press center.

[mikegogulski]

The USA could kill Bitcoin rather easily today.

Then the dressed-up gang of thugs calling itself "the United States Government" needs to die in a fire, most expeditiously.

[charleshoskinson]

Speaking as a life member of the Bitcoin Foundation who joined it because Jon Matonis is a Board member, I'm getting a real laugh out of some of these comments. Run for the hills! Jon Matonis is censoring himself! etc.

The foundation isn't censoring anyone. Those actions came from Luke-jr, jgarzik and gmaxwell... which is odd, because nowhere can I find a reason that those three should be able to come along and quash anything to do with the press center.

This is why I support the Bitcoin Foundation and I am donating part of my course proceeds to them. My only point was that over time the community needs to start specializing so we can more seamlessly integrate into the mainstream mindscape.

[Luke-Jr]

The USA could kill Bitcoin rather easily today.

Then the dressed-up gang of thugs calling itself "the United States Government" needs to die in a fire, most expeditiously.

If this is the only reason you want the USA to die, I'm surprised.
I can think of numerous more important reasons I'd like the USA to fall apart.

BUT, that does not change the fact that in reality, they exist and could kill Bitcoin easily.
Let's not give them a reason to do so on a silver platter...

[charleshoskinson]

BUT, that does not change the fact that in reality, they exist and could kill Bitcoin easily.
Let's not give them a reason to do so on a silver platter...

I'm glad we agree. I want to make sure the public understands that the bitcoin is a good thing for them as quickly as possible. Eventually someone over at the fed is going to understand that the Bitcoin is a very big threat and then pick up his phone.

[justusranvier]

The United States is constructing this facility in Utah

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/

This should give you an idea of how powerful the federal government is. If they decide to invest in an ASIC fueled 51% attack alongside a huge surge in DDOSes to every website supporting the bitcoin, then they will be successful.

Let's be realistic.

Step 1: Some lobbyist will convince a member of congress that Bitcoin is a threat, and the government needs to buy some ASICs.
Step 2: Other lobbyists get wind of the plan, and all try to get their own employers' interests included in the upcoming bill.
Step 3: Legislation in enacted and money is allocated.
Step 4: Contracts are written and approved, ensuring that contractors from all 435 congressional districts are included in the project.
Step 5: Construction begins. Only unionized companies are allowed to work on the facility, and they negotiate for 3 hour work days.
Step 6: The facility is completed. The project is now 8 years late and $15 billion over budget, and half the spent money can't even be accounted for. By this time the Bitcoin network has grown by three or four orders of magnitude. The government's new toy has enough hashing power to mine about a millibit per day.

[charleshoskinson]

Step 1: Some lobbyist will convince a member of congress that Bitcoin is a threat, and the government needs to buy some ASICs.
Step 2: Other lobbyists get wind of the plan, and all try to get their own employers' interests included in the upcoming bill.
Step 3: Legislation in enacted and money is allocated.
Step 4: Contracts are written and approved, ensuring that contractors from all 435 congressional districts are included in the project.
Step 5: Construction begins. Only unionized companies are allowed to work on the facility, and they negotiate for 3 hour work days.
Step 6: The facility is completed. The project is now 8 years late and $15 billion over budget, and half the spent money can't even be accounted for. By this time the Bitcoin network has grown by three or four orders of magnitude. The government's new toy has enough hashing power to mine about a millibit per day.

You should look at how quickly after 9/11 the us government moved on the terrorist financial networks or the bank bailout of 2008. If the US government wanted to destroy the bitcoin, then they could do it. Our only advantage is that they are slow, inefficient and very divided. If Bitcoins become too much of a political threat or a monetary threat, then the NSA will develop an ASIC capable of doing it in two months. They don't need congress. An executive order is sufficient.

[marcus_of_augustus]

If the US government wanted to destroy the bitcoin, then they could do it. Our only advantage is that they are slow, inefficient and very divided. If Bitcoins become too much of a political threat or a monetary threat, then the NSA will develop an ASIC capable of doing it in two months. They don't need congress. An executive order is sufficient.

Name:    charleshoskinson
Posts:    90
Position:    Jr. Member
Date Registered:    19 April 2013, 06:13:20

This way, way off-topic .... but seeing as you are becoming vociferous ....

The US govt, or any govt, do not pose a threat to bitcoin. They can go after individual users, maybe many of them, but bitcoin, no.  You are completely wrong about the supposed "power" of NSA/CIA versus the size, spread and ability to adapt of the bitcoin network/software. And the ability of bitcoin users to counter-strike if necessary for that matter is not nil ... i.e. they don't hold all the cards as you are trying to make out and the hand they hold is pretty crappy in reality ... take a look at the scoreboard.

[charleshoskinson]

We will have to agree to disagree. I consider the bitcoin dead if dealing in bitcoins is both illegal and restricted to a technological elite. I am well aware of the skill and proficiency of the NSA and I can assure you that a VLSI project a convicted felon with 22 employees over at BFL can do is within the scope of the NSA's ability. The Bitcoin exists because the governments of the world have turned a blind eye.

Like the internet as a whole, eventually governments will attempt to control the bitcoin with varying degrees of success. My only point is that we are getting close to a tipping point where the bitcoin could still be destroyed by my definition. If we play nice and work hard, then the bitcoin will become too large and too powerful for any one nation to overcome.

[Paladin69]

The Bitcoin Foundation is trying to become a Government lobbying group.  It will have the funds with the way things are going.  To keep Bitcoin alive, we can't look threatening to central banks.  We also must play ball and give campaign contributions on a corporate scale so things are seen our way.  This is how the system works.

I don't see it as a bad thing.  We are just lobbying for our freedom to use Bitcoin.

Roger Ver on Fox Business looked too threatening I think...lol  Too sure of himself.  And he should be.  But we have to play nice.  I think I agree with their decision but I'd be willing to give other chances.

[tvbcof]

jeff garzik's attitude towards Bitcoin has always bothered me.  listen to him here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhj1zeisqWY

i know alot of ppl thought Garzik was just posturing towards gov't in this interview to allow Bitcoin to grow but in light of what's just happened, i'm not so sure.

I probably watched it a long time ago, but just did again thanks to your link.  In retrospect, this interview is probably why I place the most confidence in Garzik (at least until I did until I was more aware of Peter Todd.)  Everything indicates to me both that he is thinking several chess moves ahead of most of the other participants in the ecosystem and that his view of the best practical future for the solution is something I could live with.

The view of the end-point of the Bitcoin solution expressed by Hearn (who also seems to think many chess moves ahead) is not at all to my liking as I see the solution he proposes as one where the operational aspects of the solution are almost completely monopolized by a small number of super-entities.  On the other hand, he seems to be very much the driving force behind keeping things going at all via the LevelDB work.  I value and appreciate this significantly even while I distrust the motives a bit.

Gavin and ~sipa I have yet to get a good read on.

[Bitcoin Oz]

BTW, I consider Roger Ver's criminal conviction a badge of honor that demonstrates the evil and violence of the State towards peaceful, mutually voluntary relations. He paid a high price and has my highest respect.

It seems he was fighting for freedom against mice by using M-80's


The
 San Francisco ATF office announced that Roger Ver, 22, of
 San Jose, California was sentenced on May 3, 2002, to 10 months
 in jail, 3 years probation and a $2000 fine for dealing in explosives
 without a license, storing explosives in a manner not in conformity
 with regulations and for mailing injurious articles. Ver was sentenced
 in US District Court, Northern District of California, as a result
 of a plea agreement entered into by Mr. Ver that culminated a
 2-year investigation.

Mr.
Ver was selling pest control devices through Ebay, the online
 auction service. On the site, Ver offered and sold the "Pest
 Control 2000" devices as legal M-80's. In addition, Mr. Ver
 stored the devices in an apartment that he was renting. As noted
 previously, Federal Explosive regulations require all explosives
 to be stored in a magazine, and prohibit storage of explosives
 in a residence or dwelling, and also mandates separation from
 inhabited buildings, public roads, and passenger railways.

John
 A. Torres, Special Agent in Charge of ATF's San Francisco Field
 Office said "Mr. Ver placed numerous people, including the
 residents of the apartment building, in potential harm from accidental
 detonation of these devices. I am pleased this matter is adjudicated
 and Mr. Ver is no longer in this business."

The
 case was initiated independently by both ATF and the Santa Clara,
 California, Police Department in April 1999, after ATF received
 word from the San Jose Police Department that Mr. Ver offered
 these items for sale on a web site called "Roger's Page of
 Terror".

Exactly. This is another State-invented, victimless crime.

Seems they failed to prevent the recent explosion in waco where tonnes of explosive was being stored next to schools.

[Luke-Jr]

The Bitcoin Foundation is trying to become a Government lobbying group.

That will never happen, you do realize they have been in existence for a while and have yet to do anything. If you think they are going to be come a Government lobby group you misunderstood of what the foundation is suppose to be and they can't even do that right.

I have to disagree strongly with this.
While Gavin and I don't always get along, I can see a lot of good work done by him to improve Bitcoin.
The Foundation's main reason for creation (at least in my view) was to get Gavin a salary so he can work on Bitcoin full-time.
The fruits of that are very much behind-the-scenes, but they definitely exist.

[gweedo]

The Bitcoin Foundation is trying to become a Government lobbying group.

That will never happen, you do realize they have been in existence for a while and have yet to do anything. If you think they are going to be come a Government lobby group you misunderstood of what the foundation is suppose to be and they can't even do that right.

I have to disagree strongly with this.
While Gavin and I don't always get along, I can see a lot of good work done by him to improve Bitcoin.
The Foundation's main reason for creation (at least in my view) was to get Gavin a salary so he can work on Bitcoin full-time.
The fruits of that are very much behind-the-scenes, but they definitely exist.

While I agree that the main reason was to get Gavin Salary, if that was smart or not will be decided later, but the foundation has all these intelligent members that should be coming together to make bitcoin better from so many different avenues. Plus having board members that compliment each other, is a huge failure of foundation. I think having Roger Ver and Jon Matonis removed from bitcoin.org press page another failure. Just too many failure for that foundation, but a win of getting Gavin a salary which shouldn't be only win.

[Severian]

To keep Bitcoin alive, we can't look threatening to central banks. 

That will never happen. Bitcoin's continued existence is threat to the reputation of all central banks. The European Central Bank said as much last fall:

Virtual currencies “could have a negative impact on the reputation of central banks” if their use grows considerably, the Frankfurt-based ECB said in its research paper. “This risk should be considered when assessing the overall risk situation of central banks.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-28/bitcoin-s-gains-may-fuel-central-bank-concerns-chart-of-the-day.html

Bitcoin will always be a threat to central banks. For 100 years, banks have told us that we need them. Bitcoin proves them wrong. Everyday that the Bitcoin network is in operation is another piece of the central banks' reputation chipped away.