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Author Topic: Changing the client code to give allinvain's money back?  (Read 8953 times)
allinvain
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June 17, 2011, 03:18:04 AM
 #21

It’s impossible to prove that allinvain has indeed lost his money and not just moved it himself.

Not necessarily. There is always some uncertainty but one can indeed show strong proof. You need my wallet.dat file. I also have another wallet.dat file that shows me transferring 50 BTC to the main wallet file that got stolen. This would show proof of continuity. My control of the coins ends right when they were moved while I was sleeping to this address:

1KPTdMb6p7H3YCwsyFqrEmKGmsHqe1Q3jg

This address has some links to the computer underground - further proof that it was indeed not me moving them.



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June 17, 2011, 03:20:36 AM
 #22

Well, guys, here we go: advocating centralized change and redistribution.  We're repeating history.
allinvain
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June 17, 2011, 03:25:29 AM
 #23

So you want to (a) freeze the coins and (b) create a new block reward to replace them? You'll need 100% of the miners or (a) won't happen and (b) will fork the chain.

You could make it happen 6 months from now so everyone would have updated versions by then. Hypothetically, I mean, I said I'm not necessarily behind this but just presenting it as an idea, maybe as a special exemption since it is 0.3% of the entire economy stolen.

This is simply not going to happen.

If someone wants to transfer 25,000 coins, they can either do it themselves or pay a 1000 coin transfer fee and most miners will gladly process the transaction.

And if you start creating new block rewards for anyone who allegedly loses their coins, you will have a fork, because I know there are miners who won't stand for such silliness.

True, never going to happen..but one can argue that this would be like stealing marked bill from a bank. If the police eventually find the criminals and they trace the money to them what you're saying is that it should not be returned to the rightful owner? Is there any morality or legal justice to dealing with bitcoins or should we just treat it as the financial equivalent of the wild west? I see that a lot of you come from a libertarian/anarchistic world view, so I am thinking that in your opinions the only thing that would be just would be the application of vigilante justice, no? Would you all be ok with me stealing them back?


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June 17, 2011, 03:26:06 AM
 #24

Well, guys, here we go: advocating centralized change and redistribution.  We're repeating history.

I don't think so, miners and investors, past, present, and future, will reject any clients that attempt to do this.  This is just feelings running high, the frontal lobe is taking a back seat for a few minutes.

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June 17, 2011, 03:26:51 AM
 #25

Well, guys, here we go: advocating centralized change and redistribution.  We're repeating history.

I don't think so, miners and investors, past, present, and future, will reject any clients that attempt to do this.  This is just feelings running high, the frontal lobe is taking a back seat for a few minutes.
Hahaha, thinking with the heart as opposed to the brain. The evil it creates...
rezin777
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June 17, 2011, 03:29:51 AM
 #26


True, never going to happen..but one can argue that this would be like stealing marked bill from a bank. If the police eventually find the criminals and they trace the money to them what you're saying is that it should not be returned to the rightful owner? Is there any morality or legal justice to dealing with bitcoins or should we just treat it as the financial equivalent of the wild west? I see that a lot of you come from a libertarian/anarchistic world view, so I am thinking that in your opinions the only thing that would be just would be the application of vigilante justice, no? Would you all be ok with me stealing them back?



If the police find the criminal(s) it is up to the criminal(s) to reimburse you, not the entire Bitcoin user base.
Tawsix
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June 17, 2011, 03:33:58 AM
 #27

Well, guys, here we go: advocating centralized change and redistribution.  We're repeating history.

I don't think so, miners and investors, past, present, and future, will reject any clients that attempt to do this.  This is just feelings running high, the frontal lobe is taking a back seat for a few minutes.
Hahaha, thinking with the heart as opposed to the brain. The evil it creates...

The road to hell and all that jazz...

charliesheen
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June 17, 2011, 03:34:13 AM
 #28

I was thinking you could hard-code in an array of "illegal" bitcoin addresses (those of the perpetrators) so that no client will invalidate Bitcoins originating from them. Also, you could hardcode in an address that starts with the amount of Bitcoins stolen, and give allinvain the private key. I'm sure it could be done though I don't know the technical specifics.

You could actually turn it into an entire component of the client where you hardcode in reversals of fradulent activity, based on democratic and fair judgements.

Who will be the arbitrator of fraud and how long does it take before fraudulent is defined as immoral and then how do you go about determining if something is immoral.

imperi
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June 17, 2011, 03:36:05 AM
 #29

I was thinking you could hard-code in an array of "illegal" bitcoin addresses (those of the perpetrators) so that no client will invalidate Bitcoins originating from them. Also, you could hardcode in an address that starts with the amount of Bitcoins stolen, and give allinvain the private key. I'm sure it could be done though I don't know the technical specifics.

You could actually turn it into an entire component of the client where you hardcode in reversals of fradulent activity, based on democratic and fair judgements.

Who will be the arbitrator of fraud and how long does it take before fraudulent is defined as immoral and then how do you go about determining if something is immoral.

Well in this case it's pretty obvious that it is fradulent and the money should not have been sent, and it could be a one time thing since it is 0.3% of all the currency.
TraderTimm
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June 17, 2011, 03:37:21 AM
 #30

The parent poster's idea should die in a fire. Seriously.

This is horrible.

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
Anonymous
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June 17, 2011, 03:41:08 AM
 #31

Also, let me tell you gentlemen about democracy:

DamienBlack
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June 17, 2011, 03:44:18 AM
 #32

We have no proof that it was really stolen. For all we know, someone paid allinvain in cash, $500,000 cash, for those coins. And now he is trying to convince the community that he was stolen from in an effort to get us to do something like this.

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rezin777
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June 17, 2011, 03:48:00 AM
 #33

Well in this case it's pretty obvious that it is fradulent and the money should not have been sent, and it could be a one time thing since it is 0.3% of all the currency.

Could you please provide me with the proof that it's fraudulent?
westkybitcoins
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June 17, 2011, 03:54:30 AM
 #34

It’s impossible to prove that allinvain has indeed lost his money and not just moved it himself.

Not necessarily. There is always some uncertainty but one can indeed show strong proof. You need my wallet.dat file. I also have another wallet.dat file that shows me transferring 50 BTC to the main wallet file that got stolen. This would show proof of continuity. My control of the coins ends right when they were moved while I was sleeping to this address:

1KPTdMb6p7H3YCwsyFqrEmKGmsHqe1Q3jg

This address has some links to the computer underground - further proof that it was indeed not me moving them.

Not good enough. Not even close.

You may know whoever has the address. It could be your hired hand. Your brother. It might even be you.

There is no way to even be somewhat convinced that you have and had no influence over all relevant addresses. Even if I knew you personally, it might be a hard call. Thing is, I don't know you personally.

Sorry for your loss. I'd be pretty distraught to have had that much stolen from me. But no way am I supporting screwing other people (including myself) over because of your claims.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
rezin777
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June 17, 2011, 03:57:34 AM
 #35


Well in this case it's pretty obvious that it is fradulent and the money should not have been sent, and it could be a one time thing since it is 0.3% of all the currency.


If the computer was owned by a company how are you determining that this was not a legitimate transaction initiated by the IT department? This guy effectively gave all his bitcoins to his company (by putting them on a work computer) and is mad that someone else within the company accessed company resources.


This was a misunderstanding. It was his home (work) computer.
evoorhees
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June 17, 2011, 04:35:17 AM
 #36

I was thinking you could hard-code in an array of "illegal" bitcoin addresses (those of the perpetrators) so that no client will invalidate Bitcoins originating from them. Also, you could hardcode in an address that starts with the amount of Bitcoins stolen, and give allinvain the private key. I'm sure it could be done though I don't know the technical specifics.

You could actually turn it into an entire component of the client where you hardcode in reversals of fradulent activity, based on democratic and fair judgements.

The day something like this is done, while the intentions may be noble, is the day Bitcoin dies.
rezin777
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June 17, 2011, 04:37:59 AM
 #37

The day something like this is done, while the intentions may be noble, is the day Bitcoin dies.

I used to think this as well, but I was reminded by someone that all this will cause is a fork in the chain. The Bitcoin purists will continue along just fine.

In fact, I will speculate that if such a fork does occur, soon the forked coins will be worthless and the forkers will be coming back to the original block chain in time.

Ha! Forkers!
allinvain
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June 17, 2011, 04:42:53 AM
 #38


True, never going to happen..but one can argue that this would be like stealing marked bill from a bank. If the police eventually find the criminals and they trace the money to them what you're saying is that it should not be returned to the rightful owner? Is there any morality or legal justice to dealing with bitcoins or should we just treat it as the financial equivalent of the wild west? I see that a lot of you come from a libertarian/anarchistic world view, so I am thinking that in your opinions the only thing that would be just would be the application of vigilante justice, no? Would you all be ok with me stealing them back?



If the police find the criminal(s) it is up to the criminal(s) to reimburse you, not the entire Bitcoin user base.

Of course! I never said otherwise. Why are people even thinking this? Can't people read what I'm typing..


allinvain
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June 17, 2011, 04:49:57 AM
 #39


Well in this case it's pretty obvious that it is fradulent and the money should not have been sent, and it could be a one time thing since it is 0.3% of all the currency.


If the computer was owned by a company how are you determining that this was not a legitimate transaction initiated by the IT department? This guy effectively gave all his bitcoins to his company (by putting them on a work computer) and is mad that someone else within the company accessed company resources.


You're (probably unknowingly) spreading misinformation. I never put them on a work computer. It was my home PC. Sitting my damn house.


TraderTimm
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June 17, 2011, 04:52:55 AM
 #40

Can we let this die yet?

Really.

Those coins are not coming back, sorry.

fortitudinem multis - catenum regit omnia
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