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Author Topic: My Opposite Take on the "UP UP UP!" Mentality.  (Read 3918 times)
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wareen
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April 20, 2013, 10:13:37 PM
 #21

And finally: They do increase volatility in a sense that they contribute to the hype. Now if you want to ride that hype it is clear that you actually like that. What you have to consider though is that real adoption takes place, albeit at a slower rate. That is sites accepting bitcoin directly, for donation proposes.
What I am suggesting is that without bitpay we would already be seeing more of that plus some stuff actually priced in bitcoin.

I don't like the hype and I totally agree with you regarding the much slower actual adoption rate of Bitcoin.
However, I don't see Bitpay hurting Bitcoin in any way. The alternative would be that merchants implemented something like Bitpay in their checkout process themselves (i.e. pricing stuff in Bitcoin based on the current exchange rate +2% and doing a timely exchange on MtGox). There is no real other way you can do it because Bitcoin can be very volatile at times, with or without companies like Bitpay.

It will take a very long time before Bitcoin can be used as a somewhat stable unit of account and it might very well never happen at all.

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ElectricMucus
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April 20, 2013, 11:00:17 PM
 #22

That's kind of a chicken and the egg problem.

Here is one simple (naive) scenario of what could happen: Somebody owning a datacenter -> webhoster -> e-commerce site -> producer of 3D-Printing supplies -> producer of hard-disk hot-swap cases -> datacenter.
If such a closed loop supply chain is provided prices can become more and more independent of the exchange rate.

I am very sceptical this will ever happen with Bitcoin though  Undecided
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April 20, 2013, 11:20:57 PM
 #23

Lol rename this thread to "reasons to hate bitcoin so the price goes down so I can buy cheap"



You should rename your post to: Reason to not take smoothie serious when posting in the speculation forum. Tongue
Get a hold of yourself, I know you can post something insightful, yet witty.

You should rename your post "I need to come up with my own material instead of biting off of smoothie's"

Lol haha

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April 20, 2013, 11:22:57 PM
 #24

Lol rename this thread to "reasons to hate bitcoin so the price goes down so I can buy cheap"

Uh? This is not about not believing in Bitcoins or hating them. Just that I believe they are currently overvalued (vs others who think they are undervalued). It's not like I'll be going away from Bitcoins anytime soon. Well albeit the views expressed in this thread by some might be a bit on the extreme catastrophic scenario. Just to say although I'm bull on a time span of years, I'm bearish for the next months.
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April 20, 2013, 11:29:02 PM
 #25

You never know what bitcoins are worth next morning.
Or after 15 minutes Smiley

Can somebody explain me how it ever can/will be used for something serious ?
I dont see how price ever will be stabile.
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April 20, 2013, 11:38:12 PM
 #26

Being in Canada, one of the countries that is considering a Cyprus type bail-in plan... I'm seriously like 50/50 undecided at this point whether I'd rather risk holding more of my money in a bank long term or bitcoin cold storage wallets long term, both are pretty uncertain to me at this point.
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April 21, 2013, 12:10:57 AM
 #27

Being in Canada, one of the countries that is considering a Cyprus type bail-in plan... I'm seriously like 50/50 undecided at this point whether I'd rather risk holding more of my money in a bank long term or bitcoin cold storage wallets long term, both are pretty uncertain to me at this point.

Very good risk analysis.

Next step: Look at the reward.

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April 21, 2013, 04:34:43 AM
 #28

OP: The main value of Bitcoin is as a store of value, and that invalidates most of your concerns. Also Y U NO LOG CHART?!

ElectricMucus: You seem to have elevated grasping at straws to a fine art Grin I don't have you on ignore, but this is becoming a real pattern. I did enjoy your exponential growth history post, or the idea of much slower exponential growth as a pessimistic possibility (still very bullish long term).
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April 21, 2013, 05:22:42 AM
 #29

Not sure if price goes up with news or news goes up with price!
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April 21, 2013, 06:06:59 AM
 #30

OP: The main value of Bitcoin is as a store of value, and that invalidates most of your concerns. Also Y U NO LOG CHART?!

ElectricMucus: You seem to have elevated grasping at straws to a fine art Grin I don't have you on ignore, but this is becoming a real pattern. I did enjoy your exponential growth history post, or the idea of much slower exponential growth as a pessimistic possibility (still very bullish long term).

I don't think Bitcoin have enough foothold in the public mindset to be used as a store of value with any kind of stability. Gold is strongly ingrained in the public mind.

Bitcoins could be breached one day, it relies on SHA-256 being strong enough not being possible to be brute forced or no weakness being found. Bitcoins could also be replaced by another cryptocurrency.

Also, an exponential curve on linear chart and a straight line on a log chart are very similar. Log chart shows a strong deviation from the usual exponential growth of Bitcoins:


Although I am unsure Bitcoins can continue such exponential growth right now, the current trend of the last few week was way over the top and the predictions for Bitcoins, short of ridiculous and overoptimistic, in my opinion.
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April 21, 2013, 06:10:42 AM
 #31

Anyone cares to discuss trigger event that occured in mid Jan?
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April 21, 2013, 06:19:08 AM
 #32

I think the price started to creep up slowly as early as November with Wordpress accepting Bitcoins and also withBitPay processing a high amount of sales in Bitcoins (Mostle for sales for Butterfly Labs's ASICs). It generated a bit of news and I believe it started ramping up from there. When hysteria peaked and with increasing wild guesses about Bitcoins reaching the moon, with the latest candles zooming almost vertically, I decided to sell, at 230-250 USD/BTC. Decision I do not regret.

Without a quick recovery, I believe news will slow fade away and with it exposure to new speculators and flow of new funds. Prices will deflate in a classic bubble trend. This is just my opinion of what I think is likely to happen, not that I believe it to be a certainty. But anything otherwise would surprise me quite a lot. I remain a proponent of Bitcoins, I just don't think the latest prices are sustainable/reasonable for the time being.
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April 21, 2013, 06:22:53 AM
 #33



Now blood red day... not looking good friends
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April 21, 2013, 06:28:38 AM
 #34

Lol rename this thread to "reasons to hate bitcoin so the price goes down so I can buy cheap"



+1 its no secret that lucif sold at 250 and called the top now he wants a reset to 10 bucks and it ant gunna happen hahaha
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April 21, 2013, 07:05:38 AM
 #35

I think we might reach $150, or even $200 before correcting downwards for good. There's a lot of dumb money still around.
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April 22, 2013, 05:06:13 PM
 #36

Also, an exponential curve on linear chart and a straight line on a log chart are very similar. Log chart shows a strong deviation from the usual exponential growth of Bitcoins:


Although I am unsure Bitcoins can continue such exponential growth right now, the current trend of the last few week was way over the top and the predictions for Bitcoins, short of ridiculous and overoptimistic, in my opinion.

That's a nice graph you got there. Kind of proves your point, doesn't it? Only, it has as much to do with your selection of the time interval as it does with anything else. Oh, and the fact that your trendline is going through the lowest points of the graph. Which is not a problem per se, but it implies that you're trying to predict the likely lower bound/minimum price of btc.

How about this: Let's take a log chart of the entire duration of btc trading (okay, almost the entire duration, let's start ~12 weeks in, when we have some data, and volume picked up).

What would a straight line in this log chart look like if it would run from the price at time (0+12 weeks) to the price now. In other words, what would an arbitrary (but fixed) exponential function look like that is accurate at time 0 and now?
 


 
 
Looks kind of different, doesn't it?

Disclaimer: I'm absolutely, totally not claiming that this is the actual (or even most likely) growth function that governs btc price. I'm just putting it up to point how arbitrary your selection of a time interval and intersections points was.

Now, you could perhaps argue that the time interval you selected was actually somewhat motivated, maybe because of the news picking up the bitcoin topic, and the loads of dumb newbie money flooding the market as a result. Again, nothing wrong with that argument per se, but I could construct a similar argument as well:

My exponential function shows that both the 2011 peak, and the 2013 peak were outliers (as they should). And so was the (now corrected) drop to 50 following the recent peak. Interestingly enough, according to my -- admittedly somewhat retarded :) -- function, during almost all of 2011 btc were overvalued, while they were undervalued nearly all of 2012 and even during the beginning of 2013.

I'll say it again: I'm not seriously arguing that the function I plotted is the actual growth function of btc price. I simply wanted to point out that your projection was somewhat arbitrary.

On the other hand, your decision to sell at 250 was almost certainly right, who would seriously argue otherwise? The open question is if we're now moving (slowly? rapidly?) upwards from the current position, or if we're in for a long, painful correction.

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April 22, 2013, 06:40:32 PM
 #37

Bitcoins are just bits and bytes. It's a great medium of exchange in times of low volatility, but also a poor store of value over the long term.
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April 22, 2013, 06:46:43 PM
 #38

Yes, I know about these things. Point was just to illustrate approximately how price was on a stable exponential growth over the last year, except for a rise before Pirateat40 closed his Ponzi followed by a crash and recently with all the news hype.

Not to say that the price will return to that line or anything. Just illustrating that the recent movement was a strong and sudden variation to the stable prices we had before (Well stable for BTC anyway). What I think was a bubble (price fuel news which fuel more people to join and boost price in a loop).
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