not seen in chain / transaction not found?

[gogxmagog]

bear with me if this is n00bish, cuz so am I, but I'm having some problems understanding a couple of transactions.
#1
17 april 2013 15:19
I received 0.000259 BTC from an address I was using to collect from free coin sites, like bunnyrun, only I have not used such sites since late February.
I felt this was odd, also that there is the square symbol next to the transaction (I'm using Multibit) and when I view transaction details, it says "seen by 1 peer, not seen in chain" then when I went to blockchain info it says "transaction not found" mind you...this is me receiving BTC, and not losing it, I merely wanted to see where it came from.
#2
20 april 2013 21:26
this one is a little simpler (somewhat). today I decided to gamble at satoshidice with a very small bet (0.0006122 BTC)
When I hit send, the fuckin multibit froze! not a good sign! i let it sit for 20 mins or so to see if it would eventually respond, i closed every  other program I had running, but I was forced to "end process" (thankfully there was not very much BTC in wallet to begin with)
double fortunately, when I re-opend the wallet it still had all but the 0.0006122 I gambled, but that 0.0006122 transaction sits with a triangle beside it and the details show "not seen in chain" over at blockchain dot info it also reads transaction not found.

I realize these are small amounts, and the first one is even in my favor, but I don't like not knowing what is going on. Plus, the freezing client with the "not seen in chain" transaction, where it did in fact eat my money, but appears to have sent it down a black hole, I find VERY disturbing. What if I had been transferring a large amount of coin? it would be disastrous to me.

I'm not entirely sure if this is a general blockchain question, or a simple multibit question either, so pardon me if this is in the wrong section.
can anyone help me out with my n00bish confusion?

PS I realize now that I placed a bet under the minimum for satoshidice, but shouldn't they simply refuse the transaction? ofc, there was the frozen client thing too, but that doesn't make me feel any better. these things should NOT be freezing on people. If I had lost any significant amount I would have lost what is left of my wee mind.

[1714835197]

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[1714835197]

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[1714835197]

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[1714835197]

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[deepceleron]

Transactions less than 0.01 BTC require the minimum per kB fee. They will not be relayed by other peers if they do not include a fee.

The minimum bet on Satoshidice is 0.01 BTC, anything smaller is a donation. There is no "refusing" a transaction in Bitcoin. It would cost them money to send a payment back to you (if they got it at all, which it sound like they didn't).

The free coin sites are a scam, they are sending coins that are useless. It takes you far more effort to get an unspendable penny that you would have walked by on the street if it was a real penny.

(Note for free givers: the smallest useful payment to send someone is .001BTC since the client transaction fee is 0.0005)

[gogxmagog]

UPDATE; the satoshidice 0.0006122 bet has now entered into the blockchain (I guess it wasnt under minimum?) so I feel a little better. I would still like to know how in april, I received mystery btc with the transaction "not seen in chain" That doesnt make sense to me, plus, someone is out the $0.03 or w/ever 0.000259 BTC is worth right now. I suppose it is like finding (almost) a nickle on the street, i.e. insignificant good luck, but if my bank had weird unaccountable transactions going thru my account, no matter how small, I would demand an explanation or take my business elsewhere.

Also, multibit has been great up until a few days ago, when various bugs have been showing up. I'm dissapoint, son, cuz I still prefer it to the slow bitcoin client and the unusable (for me at least) electrum.

[deepceleron]

UPDATE; the satoshidice 0.0006122 bet has now entered into the blockchain (I guess it wasnt under minimum?) so I feel a little better. I would still like to know how in april, I received mystery btc with the transaction "not seen in chain" That doesnt make sense to me, plus, someone is out the $0.03 or w/ever 0.000259 BTC is worth right now. I suppose it is like finding (almost) a nickle on the street, i.e. insignificant good luck, but if my bank had weird unaccountable transactions going thru my account, no matter how small, I would demand an explanation or take my business elsewhere.

Also, multibit has been great up until a few days ago, when various bugs have been showing up. I'm dissapoint, son, cuz I still prefer it to the slow bitcoin client and the unusable (for me at least) electrum.

If the transaction is not included in the blockchain, it is not spent. Bitcoin shows zero-confirmation transactions as soon as it sees them on the network, but the sender could have sent the same coins to someone else with an appropriate fee, essentially double-spending them.

Lesson from Professor Obvious: don't send or sign up to receive useless dust with Bitcoin, always include the appropriate fee that the reference Bitcoin-qt client would have included, don't trust payments without confirmations.

[gogxmagog]

Transactions less than 0.01 BTC require the minimum per kB fee. They will not be relayed by other peers if they do not include a fee.

The minimum bet on Satoshidice is 0.01 BTC, anything smaller is a donation. There is no "refusing" a transaction in Bitcoin. It would cost them money to send a payment back to you (if they got it at all, which it sound like they didn't).

The free coin sites are a scam, they are sending coins that are useless. It takes you far more effort to get an unspendable penny that you would have walked by on the street if it was a real penny.

(Note for free givers: the smallest useful payment to send someone is .001BTC since the client transaction fee is 0.0005)

ok thanks, my bad.

I was just experimenting with those free sites, and yes, totally a waste of time, however... the mysterious 3 cents I got came from a request payment address I used exclusively for them. to recieve a payment 2 months after I was ever near one... seems kind of strange. also that it is a transaction that is not found in the chain. how does that even happen.

also, how are the coins useless? are they invalid? the other dollar or so I made from them was ok. I mean I won 5 dollars with it on SD, so It couldnt be bunk. It was the only BTC I could get at the time.

also. where does the BTC go if it is not recieved by the intended recipient?

[deepceleron]

I was just experimenting with those free sites, and yes, totally a waste of time, however... the mysterious 3 cents I got came from a request payment address I used exclusively for them. to recieve a payment 2 months after I was ever near one... seems kind of strange. also that it is a transaction that is not found in the chain. how does that even happen.

also, how are the coins useless? are they invalid? the other dollar or so I made from them was ok. I mean I won 5 dollars with it on SD, so It couldnt be bunk. It was the only BTC I could get at the time.

also. where does the BTC go if it is not recieved by the intended recipient?

All those questions are answered in my quote below. The coins are useless because it costs more in transaction fees to send them than their value. If you get hundreds of them to make a larger value, the per-kB transaction fee will be higher because the transaction to send many payments will be larger in bytes.

A: If the transaction is not included in the blockchain, it is not spent. Bitcoin shows zero-confirmation transactions as soon as it sees them on the network, but the sender could have sent the same coins to someone else with an appropriate fee, essentially double-spending them.

If the answer doesn't make sense, you should review sections on  http://we.lovebitco.in/how-bitcoin-works/

[gogxmagog]

I was just experimenting with those free sites, and yes, totally a waste of time, however... the mysterious 3 cents I got came from a request payment address I used exclusively for them. to recieve a payment 2 months after I was ever near one... seems kind of strange. also that it is a transaction that is not found in the chain. how does that even happen.

also, how are the coins useless? are they invalid? the other dollar or so I made from them was ok. I mean I won 5 dollars with it on SD, so It couldnt be bunk. It was the only BTC I could get at the time.

also. where does the BTC go if it is not recieved by the intended recipient?

All those questions are answered in my quote below. The coins are useless because it costs more in transaction fees to send them than their value. If you get hundreds of them to make a larger value, the transaction fee will be higher because the transaction to send will be larger in bytes.

A: If the transaction is not included in the blockchain, it is not spent. Bitcoin shows zero-confirmation transactions as soon as it sees them on the network, but the sender could have sent the same coins to someone else with an appropriate fee, essentially double-spending them.

If the answer doesn't make sense, you should review sections on  http://we.lovebitco.in/how-bitcoin-works/

ok I'm reading that, but the BTc was spent, on my end at least, cuz I no longer have it. and I did no other transactions since about an hour before. so I dont see how I "double spent" it...I will go read that link now, maybe I can figure it out. Its just events like this one make me wonder if some other unforeseen sidestep could wipe out a larger sum of BTC that would be pretty hard to swallow for those uninitiated and wary of btc in general.

[gogxmagog]

ok I understand this now. I received bunk BTC from the mystery person in transaction labeled #1 in OP. I suppose I didnt notice when I spent them, that the transaction cost me 0.00259 more than I had thought I paid.
and #2 I stupidly donated to SD. I was trying to round up my number of btc and make it look nicer by getting rid of the 0.0006122. Reading that last sentance just made me realize I should go to bed. Its been a long 4/20! 

Thanks for your help, at least I understand double spending better now.

Still a little worried about the multibit freezing - i'll take that over to "alternative clients"

g'nite! 

[Birdy]

The coins are useless because it costs more in transaction fees to send them than their value. If you get hundreds of them to make a larger value, the per-kB transaction fee will be higher because the transaction to send many payments will be larger in bytes.

I guess once there is an option to choose exactly what coins you are sending (afaik this feature is coming at some point, it already exists as client modifaction), you slowly could bundle those minitransaction with bigger ones (ok, it's really not worth the trouble, but you could do it!)
Or you could use a client with no fee and send them all together, hoping they will be transfered (or lost in limbo state xD)