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Author Topic: Bitcoiners: make no mistake! Even though it is very likely that BTU is now going  (Read 414 times)
joecooin
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March 15, 2017, 02:24:12 AM
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Bitcoiners: make no mistake! Even though it is very likely that BTU is now going the same way as XT and Classiccoin the re-centralization attempts will not stop.

Bitcoin is a revolutionary approach like never seen before in the history of the world. It is even more disruptive than any revolution seen before as it does not depend on weapons and the beheading of kings but offers an exit from the centralized financial world. It is a truly peaceful revolution that does not need guns and bloodshed and that is not aiming at putting someone else on the throne but burning down the throne altogether instead. Decentralization instead of replacing the central power that is.

Any kind of revolution always triggers a counter-revolution. Re-centralization of the network is the counter-revolution to Bitcoin. In an even more sophisticated way than Xtcoin and Classiccoin BTU is aiming to enable re-centralization of mining, nodes and software development. They even wanted to install a “president” of Bitcoin. No kidding! Smiley

With every wave the counter-revolutionary re-centralization movement is getting louder and stronger. This one has been exceptionally smart in attracting big miners / pools to it by telling them that they can outcompete and eat the smaller ones. But with every wave Bitcoin is getting stronger and more resilient as well and it has given us the ultimate tools to fight off these attacks: actual, factual decentralization and immutablity of the ledger. That is what Bitcoin stands for. No compromise on that, sorry!

And these attacks will never stop. So even if BTU goes down the drain now please be aware that the fight for your own freedom will never end. “Compromise” like it has been suggested a lot in the recent days is not anything the re-centralization movement wants. It wants perpetual war and perpetual infighting and it will do anything it can do to achieve that and that means that the next iteration of the counter-revolution is already at your doorstep.

Freedom is never achieved for good. Freedom is something you loose when you go to bed at night and that you will have to fight back again next morning when you get up.

Keep on hodling! Keep on running your own node! And maybe even get that old 33 Megahash USB-miner out of your memorability-drawer and hook it back up to the network just to make a point! Smiley


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March 15, 2017, 02:31:59 AM
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Hey that's 330mhash isn't it?  But seriously I do agree these forks always seem to have an alternative motive and this one was no exception. The teams are going to continue to focus on the block size as it is their only argument for a fork currently and we need to all expect that.

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March 15, 2017, 02:32:49 AM
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As said now the debate is same as a digital war. Only the final result can decide what's the future is about because the changes within the network randomly. Sometimes segwit gains more support and in a short But gets more support from miners. This doesn't give a perfect solution for the fight back. Using this other coins try to grow but that too is not successful, only very few succeed and most others end in an ICO level.
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March 15, 2017, 02:36:36 AM
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It is ridiculous to say that scaling solutions are going to lead to centralization of Bitcoin.

I read something that someone wrote in another thread earlier today, and think it would apply to your crazy logic:
In theory then a smaller block size (smaller even than 1MB) will promote decentralization?

Suppose we go with this idea and take it to the extreme.  Then perhaps a block should be exactly two transactions; the coinbase transaction and one other non-coinbase transaction (such that both fit together inside of 1MB?) -- um, that is, until the block reward drops to zero and then one and only one transaction gets packed into each block.  Naturally the highest fee transaction is the one going into the next block. 

joecooin
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March 15, 2017, 02:46:04 AM
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Hey that's 330mhash isn't it? 

Oh shit you are right!

That gives me a feeling of power now! Smiley

Gotta find that little thing and deploy it .... Wink.

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March 15, 2017, 02:58:31 AM
 #6

Bitcoiners: make no mistake! Even though it is very likely that BTU is now going the same way as XT and Classiccoin the re-centralization attempts will not stop.

Bitcoin is a revolutionary approach like never seen before in the history of the world. It is even more disruptive than any revolution seen before as it does not depend on weapons and the beheading of kings but offers an exit from the centralized financial world. It is a truly peaceful revolution that does not need guns and bloodshed and that is not aiming at putting someone else on the throne but burning down the throne altogether instead. Decentralization instead of replacing the central power that is.

Any kind of revolution always triggers a counter-revolution. Re-centralization of the network is the counter-revolution to Bitcoin. In an even more sophisticated way than Xtcoin and Classiccoin BTU is aiming to enable re-centralization of mining, nodes and software development. They even wanted to install a “president” of Bitcoin. No kidding! Smiley

With every wave the counter-revolutionary re-centralization movement is getting louder and stronger. This one has been exceptionally smart in attracting big miners / pools to it by telling them that they can outcompete and eat the smaller ones. But with every wave Bitcoin is getting stronger and more resilient as well and it has given us the ultimate tools to fight off these attacks: actual, factual decentralization and immutablity of the ledger. That is what Bitcoin stands for. No compromise on that, sorry!

And these attacks will never stop. So even if BTU goes down the drain now please be aware that the fight for your own freedom will never end. “Compromise” like it has been suggested a lot in the recent days is not anything the re-centralization movement wants. It wants perpetual war and perpetual infighting and it will do anything it can do to achieve that and that means that the next iteration of the counter-revolution is already at your doorstep.

Freedom is never achieved for good. Freedom is something you loose when you go to bed at night and that you will have to fight back again next morning when you get up.

Keep on hodling! Keep on running your own node! And maybe even get that old 33 Megahash USB-miner out of your memorability-drawer and hook it back up to the network just to make a point! Smiley



U do understand that limiting blocks = centralization of bitcoin and the best attack against bitcoin.

joecooin
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March 15, 2017, 03:43:08 AM
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U do understand that limiting blocks = centralization of bitcoin and the best attack against bitcoin.

No, quite frankly, I'm not an idiot and I therefor understand the opposite.


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March 15, 2017, 04:56:04 AM
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This "centralization" issue because of nodes is ridiculous.  Bitcoin is a proof of work consensus system.  The power resides in those that have proof of work: the miners.  Nowhere else.  What is that power ?  It is the power to decide:
1) what new block to make, and what transactions to include
2) on what previous block to build
3) according to what protocol

in other words, the pools.

But this power is balanced by the power of users to determine market value.  Pools are not going to do things that make users crash seriously the market value.

When you look at the pools, bitcoin is already an oligarchy.  The pool bosses can easily sit together in a room, and represent a large majority of hash rate.

Yes, I hear you say, they are only the pools, they don't possess the mining hardware.  But mining hardware doesn't decide about blocks.  Mining hardware is only providing hashes for pools.  The choice an owner of mining hardware has, is to join pool X or pool Y, and that will solely be determined by how much pool X or pool Y pay him for his hash rate.  The mining hardware doesn't determine protocol, chain on which to build or whatever.

So how can block size centralize even a bit more bitcoin ?  By the network quality between miners.  The network latency BETWEEN MINERS makes those miners that have a poor network connection TO THEIR PEERS receive the latest blocks later than the others, and makes them put their blocks at disposal of the others later than their peers' blocks.  The time lost to get the latest block, and the time lost when putting your block at disposal, is wasted hash rate, and higher probability to get your block orphaned.

THAT is the ONLY disadvantage larger blocks bring, or, the only "economy of scale" that larger miner pools have: they can invest in better network links between them. 

Imagine that bitcoin has, say, 20 important mining pools.   Then the full power over bitcoin is in the hands of these 20 entities.

Now, imagine that 18 of these pools are linked together with a 100 MB/s network backbone but that miners 19 and 20 have only 1MB/s links.   Currently, they have to receive a block and it takes them 1 second, and when they send out their block, it also takes a second.

This makes that they have 2 seconds lost on 10 minutes.  If now, the block size rises to, say, 50 MB, they would lose 50 seconds at the start when receiving a block, and 50 seconds at the end, when sending a block.  They would lose almost 2 minutes on the 10 minutes: when other miners have 10 minutes to hash a block, they only have 8 real minutes.  20% hash rate lost.

So, 50 MB blocks would seriously hinder a 1MB/s linked miner: he would lose 20% of his investment.

In fact, the wise thing to do, would be to upgrade his network link.  Compared to the cost of 20% of his hash rate, a higher network capacity might be a good investment.

But there's of course worse: miners with good links might send out some rubbish to their peers to keep their links saturated.  But that goes in two directions: if miners start to DDOS one another, they might get hurt more than they are hurting the other miner.  I think that the miner starting to DDOS his peers is going to get cut off.   So they won't play that game.

So block size starts to accelerate bitcoins (unavoidable) centralisation from the moment that blocks are so big, that the network infrastructure to transmit them becomes more expensive than the cost of proof of work itself, and that only the biggest factories of proof of work can permit themselves such good network connections.   I think that this must run in the size of many GB blocks before this becomes relevant.

Ah, yes, and the nodes of people ?  Doesn't matter.  They don't mean anything.  Bitcoin is a proof of work system.  If you don't deliver proof of work, you don't have anything to say.
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