BTC.value = if(you_can_get_blocksize_together = 10K, dead);

[jubalix]

OK btc world, I am of the view that if the BTC community cannot get the blocksize issue sorted out now, and some sort of optional instant send side chain, the demand for the features are great enough that some alt will replace BTC, sooner than later. Not just for the blocksize issue, but for the implication of the state of dev in BTC.

Certain alts of recent should be a serious wake up call. They have proven the market is prepared to discount the faults instamines, some centralization whatever.

The market demand for instant send, open policy dev discussion and the ability to implement change is to high.

People are tired of the fight, and want solutions now, this is exacerbated by the fact they can see the solutions ready.
The BTC network is being driven to a halt for normal users as it becomes expensive to send BTC with current blocksize.

It is interesting to see the 1st to market advantage of BTC being thrown away, particularly as BTC now what it craved for so long, real world adoption and usage, unlike most other coins, and what is being done with it?

Fees have gone through the roof due to a stupid fight between a few people than no one cares about. Get a 8mb blocksize already or whatever if you want to live.

At the inflection point of BTC success, the dev model has failed to reach consensus. This may be one of the importnat boundary conditions of sucess::how a coin is sets up and dev/miners dynamic.

It seems the consensus there to make them work in harmony is just as important as on-chain consensus

I am agnostic as to whether BTC or some Alt takes the crown, but there you have it BTC can implement solutions now,

The bigger issue writ large ::

If BTC cannot even now take steps to address the blocksize issue, when solutions abound, how then can any meaningful dev take place to improve the utility of BTC?

Its up to you to see the writing on the wall or go down with the ship.

[AgentofCoin]

...
Certain alts of recent should be a serious wake up call. They have proven the market is prepared to discount the faults instamines, some centralization whatever.

The market demand for instant send, open policy dev discussion and the ability to implement change is to high.

People are tired of the fight, and want solutions exacerbated by the fact they can see the solutions. The BTC network is being driven to a halt for normal users as it becomes expensive to send BTC with current blocksize.
...

I disagree. The current altcoin rise is based on pure pump speculation from
statements such as yours, which only feeds into what they are attempting.

At the end of the day, majority of altcoins are worthless and not as secure.
If noobs think those are viable alternatives, they will soon get what they deserve.

Don't mistake a good old fashion altcoin pump, with actual utilization.
If you look at the charts, they are clearly pumps.

[Carlton Banks]

3 things


1. What business accepts these alts? It rhymes with "shogun"

2. Why not? Is it becasue of Bitcoin's coveted MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CUMULATIVE HASHES PROTECTING EVERYONE'S BTC? It is, isn't it?

3. Altcoin exchange rate or market caps mean nothing. Fiat money is free to those with the printing press or access to the right kind of credit. Rich adversaries of Bitcoin can empty their toilet paper into altcoin markets all they want, the market liquidity will drop right out when they move onto the next coin.

[jubalix]

3 things


1. What business accepts these alts? It rhymes with "shogun"

2. Why not? Is it becasue of Bitcoin's coveted MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CUMULATIVE HASHES PROTECTING EVERYONE'S BTC? It is, isn't it?

3. Altcoin exchange rate or market caps means nothing. Fiat money is free to those with the printing press or access to the right kind of credit.

I accept your points, but they are orthogonal to my main contention, which is the implication the Dev/Miner consensus look to have ground to a standstill with vastly deleterious effects

If they can not even get through a larger blocksize even as a stop gap of say 8mb or something, in the face of huge user demand, which btc community always sought, what does this mean for any meaningful dev on anything else.

What good are hash protected coins if they become unable to be moved?

Your so right we do have massive btc adoption, but now cannot cheaply spend our coins....!

[jubalix]

...
Certain alts of recent should be a serious wake up call. They have proven the market is prepared to discount the faults instamines, some centralization whatever.

The market demand for instant send, open policy dev discussion and the ability to implement change is to high.

People are tired of the fight, and want solutions exacerbated by the fact they can see the solutions. The BTC network is being driven to a halt for normal users as it becomes expensive to send BTC with current blocksize.
...

I disagree. The current altcoin rise is based on pure pump speculation from
statements such as yours, which only feeds into what they are attempting.

At the end of the day, majority of altcoins are worthless and not as secure.
If noobs think those are viable alternatives, they will soon get what they deserve.

Don't mistake a good old fashion altcoin pump, with actual utilization.
If you look at the charts, they are clearly pumps.

Instant send, and low transaction fee features are agnostic to being an alt.

The non speculative part of my statement is that here is an operating system that I can cheaply and isntantly send my coins, vs here is a system where I can not. This is where the value is being arbitraged out.

Looking at the charts, Percentage wise I am not sure btc dominance has ever been lower.

[AgentofCoin]

...
Certain alts of recent should be a serious wake up call. They have proven the market is prepared to discount the faults instamines, some centralization whatever.

The market demand for instant send, open policy dev discussion and the ability to implement change is to high.

People are tired of the fight, and want solutions exacerbated by the fact they can see the solutions. The BTC network is being driven to a halt for normal users as it becomes expensive to send BTC with current blocksize.
...

I disagree. The current altcoin rise is based on pure pump speculation from
statements such as yours, which only feeds into what they are attempting.

At the end of the day, majority of altcoins are worthless and not as secure.
If noobs think those are viable alternatives, they will soon get what they deserve.

Don't mistake a good old fashion altcoin pump, with actual utilization.
If you look at the charts, they are clearly pumps.

Instant send, and low transaction fee features are agnostic to being an alt.

The non speculative part of my statement is that here is an operating system that I can cheaply and isntantly send my coins, vs here is a system where I can not. This is where the value is being arbitraged out.

Looking at the charts, Percentage wise I am not sure btc dominance has ever been lower.

People are not buying altcoins because of instant send or low fees.
That makes no sense since the other person in the transaction would need to accept that alt as well.
There is no worthy infrastructure or economy for those alts.

The reason why those alts are rising is not adoption by noobs, but whale attempting to trick you.
They are using the higher bitcoin fees to take advantage. This is 2013-2014 altcoin pump all over again.

Eventually, majority will be converted back into btc, like always.

[dinofelis]

3 things


1. What business accepts these alts? It rhymes with "shogun"

That was the case once with bitcoin too.

2. Why not? Is it becasue of Bitcoin's coveted MASSIVE AMOUNT OF CUMULATIVE HASHES PROTECTING EVERYONE'S BTC? It is, isn't it?

Of course not.  Simply because bitcoin is first mover and more known.  Bitcoin is immensely OVERPROTECTED cryptographically.

If a merchant has troubles receiving his 0.02 bitcoin payment because it is still in the mem pool for 3 hours, he might prefer just any other alt coin that gets him to his 25 dollars or so more reliably than the utmost improbable case that the block chain will be overdone the time he holds these 25 dollars before converting them to fiat, or spending them otherwise.

In other words, the immense "cryptographic vaults by huge proof of work" don't matter for the guy holding the coin half an hour.  You don't put your 20 dollar bills in a highly secured vault, you keep them in your wallet and you spend them.
The cryptographic vault of bitcoin is designed to hold a RESERVE currency, not for a used currency that you obtain, and spend again.  It is meant to "hold your precious", and not to get it and transmit it again.

[jubalix]

People are not buying altcoins because of instant send or low fees.
That makes no sense since the other person in the transaction would need to accept that alt as well.
There is no worthy infrastructure or economy for those alts.

The reason why those alts are rising is not adoption by noobs, but whale attempting to trick you.
They are using the higher bitcoin fees to take advantage. This is 2013-2014 altcoin pump all over again.

Eventually, majority will be converted back into btc, like always.

People are buying alts for profit hedge and features.

Fictitious whales are not an argument against real division and to much friction in the BTC economy due to high fees, and a choke point via block size.

[dinofelis]

People are buying alts for profit hedge and features.

Bitcoin too.  Only a tiny little part of its market cap is "currency use with merchants".  The rest is just as well greater fool games.

[AgentofCoin]

People are not buying altcoins because of instant send or low fees.
That makes no sense since the other person in the transaction would need to accept that alt as well.
There is no worthy infrastructure or economy for those alts.

The reason why those alts are rising is not adoption by noobs, but whale attempting to trick you.
They are using the higher bitcoin fees to take advantage. This is 2013-2014 altcoin pump all over again.

Eventually, majority will be converted back into btc, like always.

People are buying alts for profit hedge and features.
Fictitious whales are not an argument against real division and to much friction in the BTC economy due to high fees, and a choke point via block size.

If you were knowledgeable, you would know that the average bitcoin user is ignorant of the blocksize issue.
The average user sends a tx and walks away, never participating or paying attention to the arguments.

The average bitcoin user is not buy altcoins as hedges.
The average bitcoin user has less than 0.5 btc, they aren't going to risk that into an alt.
Only the whales are buying those altcoins as pure speculation.
The Dumps will come like always.

[gentlemand]

If you were knowledgeable, you would know that the average bitcoin user is ignorant of the blocksize issue.
The average user sends a tx and walks away, never participating or paying attention to the arguments.

The average bitcoin user is not buy altcoins as hedges.
The average bitcoin user has less than 0.5 btc, they aren't going to risk that into an alt.
Only the whales are buying those altcoins as pure speculation.
The Dumps will come like always.

I think you're describing a user 10-15 years in the future. You've still got to be pretty weird and greedy to be using Bitcoin at this stage. It's possible a lot of people aren't paying much attention to the usual echo chambers but the idea that they're as carefree as a debit card user doesn't ring true.

And from perusing these forums, the newer you are the more likely you are to be throwing your coins away on ludicrous investment schemes and ICOs.

Alts at present are largely a mirage but there might be a tipping point that no one notices until the moment has passed.

[AngryDwarf]

Cryptocurrency is something like a dot com bubble where people are speculating on its future value.
Blockchain is this trendy thing where people want to implement it without considering if they really need it.
Don't be surprised to see many cryptocurrencies fail, and certainly many blockchain start ups will fail, just like the dot com bubble.
Without real world use, cryptocurrencies have no real value. People who believe a bunch of hard to compute 1's and 0's as a pure store of value are seriously misguided. But then just look at how many people are only interested in BTC as a get rich quick scheme. Considering BTC as a pure investment scheme it nothing short of a ponzi style pass the bag holder scheme.

As far as alts go, there is a lot of IOU trading occuring, but very little actual transactional use. Bag holders beware!
Ethereum is designed to be a distributed computer. Ether is the fuel for processing on this (once immutable) blockchain. Anyone who thinks it has value as a currency should try downloading the full blockchain. It is not efficient for that purpose.
Litecoin is a simple bitcoin clone with a few tweaked parameters and different proof of work algo. The creator has shown no innovation for this coin beyond a simple clone ever. No wonder it is dropping down the charts. If used heavily, it runs into the same problem as BTC.
Dash at least shows some technological innovation. However, its anonymity features are not very efficient (due to the number of UTXO's created). As a BTC fork, if used heavily, it runs into the same problem as BTC. At least it is showing to be adaptable change. It is not yet known how the masternodes would cope under real world stress.
Monero and other privacy centric coins at least have black market value!

Going back to BTC, at least is has some real world uses if it is not allowed to be strangled by artificially limited capacity. It might not be useful for buying a pack of rolling papers, but fiat can probably do that much more efficiently than any lightning network bank channel.

[jubalix]

People are not buying altcoins because of instant send or low fees.
That makes no sense since the other person in the transaction would need to accept that alt as well.
There is no worthy infrastructure or economy for those alts.

The reason why those alts are rising is not adoption by noobs, but whale attempting to trick you.
They are using the higher bitcoin fees to take advantage. This is 2013-2014 altcoin pump all over again.

Eventually, majority will be converted back into btc, like always.

People are buying alts for profit hedge and features.
Fictitious whales are not an argument against real division and to much friction in the BTC economy due to high fees, and a choke point via block size.

If you were knowledgeable, you would know that the average bitcoin user is ignorant of the blocksize issue.
The average user sends a tx and walks away, never participating or paying attention to the arguments.

The average bitcoin user is not buy altcoins as hedges.
The average bitcoin user has less than 0.5 btc, they aren't going to risk that into an alt.
Only the whales are buying those altcoins as pure speculation.
The Dumps will come like always.

The average user knows when his/her coins got stuck and payment not made which is increasingly the Now. So no.

[jubalix]

Cryptocurrency is something like a dot com bubble where people are speculating on its future value.
Blockchain is this trendy thing where people want to implement it without considering if they really need it.
Don't be surprised to see many cryptocurrencies fail, and certainly many blockchain start ups will fail, just like the dot com bubble.
Without real world use, cryptocurrencies have no real value. People who believe a bunch of hard to compute 1's and 0's as a pure store of value are seriously misguided. But then just look at how many people are only interested in BTC as a get rich quick scheme. Considering BTC as a pure investment scheme it nothing short of a ponzi style pass the bag holder scheme.

As far as alts go, there is a lot of IOU trading occuring, but very little actual transactional use. Bag holders beware!
Ethereum is designed to be a distributed computer. Ether is the fuel for processing on this (once immutable) blockchain. Anyone who thinks it has value as a currency should try downloading the full blockchain. It is not efficient for that purpose.
Litecoin is a simple bitcoin clone with a few tweaked parameters and different proof of work algo. The creator has shown no innovation for this coin beyond a simple clone ever. No wonder it is dropping down the charts. If used heavily, it runs into the same problem as BTC.
Dash at least shows some technological innovation. However, its anonymity features are not very efficient (due to the number of UTXO's created). As a BTC fork, if used heavily, it runs into the same problem as BTC. At least it is showing to be adaptable change. It is not yet known how the masternodes would cope under real world stress.
Monero and other privacy centric coins at least have black market value!

Going back to BTC, at least is has some real world uses if it is not allowed to be strangled by artificially limited capacity. It might not be useful for buying a pack of rolling papers, but fiat can probably do that much more efficiently than any lightning network bank channel.

Good points, the real world use of the BTC blockchain is a system to organise you activities around, a ledger, much like you act in a manner that you see will fill your bank account ledger with money.

at the moment the ledger is fail, as its becoming hard to change the ledger as coins are struggling to be moved

[manselr]

What altcoin is going to have "instant send" with the volume of transaction of bitcoin?

Sorry but I dont see any alts competing. DASH is just Roger Ver pumping it. ETH has a ton of big brands behind the project.

Im eager to have faster transactions with cheaper fees but not at the cost of fucking up the project.

Tell miners to signal for segwit, what else can we do?

[AngryDwarf]

at the moment the ledger is fail, as its becoming hard to change the ledger as coins are struggling to be moved

Probably better to say it is getting harder and harder to get your transaction written into the ledger.

[jonald_fyookball]

OK btc world, I am of the view that if the BTC community cannot get the blocksize issue sorted out now,

I'm with ya... i like where this is going...

and some sort of instant send side chain,

...annnnd  you lost me... why do we need any side chains any time soon?
Bitcoin was totally working FINE until blocks got full...just lift the damn blocksize restriction
which was in place for spam.  The original Bitcoin code handled 32MB blocks.

[AngryDwarf]

Zero confirmation economic risk has changed from the disadvantageous double spend propagation attack to one where the transaction does not confirm at all due to restricted transaction processing capacity, mempool forgetfulness, and selective transaction relay.

[jubalix]

Zero confirmation economic risk has changed from the disadvantageous double spend propagation attack to one where the transaction does not confirm at all due to restricted transaction processing capacity, mempool forgetfulness, and selective transaction relay.

Yes their is risk, and using various system such as say a insentivized master node system, you can select wether you wanted a small value, my coffee to go through and for a  large value say broadcast tx to only be included on the block chain.

The option to take the risk for they type of transaction is what is needed. At the moment your are forced to send a coffee sized in to lanquish mempool with really high fees.

[AngryDwarf]

To reduce the amount of spam that can be created by sending free transactions, an emergent consensus minimum fee mechanism could be introduced. All transactions sent before the minimum fee change should eventually be confirmed, and new transactions below the minimum fee consensus should not be allowed on the network. Transaction relay rules follow the same minimum fee consensus rules. When the non-forgetful transaction pool reaches a certain size (yet again an emergent consensus parameter), the miners start to demand increasing fees. As the transaction back log clears, the transaction fee requirements can be reduced.
Result, zero confirmation risk is significantly reduced and that is how you get instant payments assuming a merchant is willing to accept a level of risk.
Emergent consensus is a dynamic system which does not rely on code changes that are too slow to deploy.

Basically emergent consensus allows the original satoshi vision to work, by solving the DoS spam problem.