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Question: How interested are you in a Bitcoin Island Community?
I have 300 BTC to purchase a spot to live in a Bitcoin community
I have 300 BTC but would like to invest only / rent to others
I don't have 300 BTC but would consider renting from others
I'm just passing through or would like to contribute in other ways
Freedom scares me... I just want to use Bitcoin as a regulated, slightly cheaper Paypal alternative

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Author Topic: Bitcoin Island/City and More  (Read 26213 times)
BTCLuke
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May 03, 2013, 09:30:34 PM
 #121

...which just brings us back to seasteading as our only hope.... maybe time to join the seasteading institute
Oh boy...

I'm pretty close to giving up on you bro. We've been through all that before. It's not a desirable solution.


A seastead could purchase protection contracts and dock in the territorial waters of its sovereign protector. 
Even if we got past the dangerous seas and low quality of life somehow... You still think it's a good idea to look to a nation for protection from nations...

I don't think they make enough facepalm pictures for this situation. I'll have to settle for this one:



You really need to give up your fixation on geographic separation. It's not possible here on this planet that they've conquered every last square inch of in the first place. But secondly, It would be a more desirable solution by far to wake everyone up and thereby conquer THIS land for anarchy.

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May 03, 2013, 09:43:15 PM
 #122

Quote from: BTCLuke link=topic=183045.msg2019247#msg2019247
Even if we got past the dangerous seas and low quality of life somehow... You still think it's a good idea to look to a nation for protection from nations...

I don't think they make enough facepalm pictures for this situation.

Luke, you rock. Write more. I am subscribing Smiley

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May 03, 2013, 09:58:41 PM
 #123

...which just brings us back to seasteading as our only hope.... maybe time to join the seasteading institute
Oh boy...

I'm pretty close to giving up on you bro. We've been through all that before. It's not a desirable solution.


A seastead could purchase protection contracts and dock in the territorial waters of its sovereign protector.  
Even if we got past the dangerous seas and low quality of life somehow... You still think it's a good idea to look to a nation for protection from nations...

I don't think they make enough facepalm pictures for this situation. I'll have to settle for this one:

You really need to give up your fixation on geographic separation. It's not possible here on this planet that they've conquered every last square inch of in the first place. But secondly, It would be a more desirable solution by far to wake everyone up and thereby conquer THIS land for anarchy.

Yea i still think its possible. You have succeeded in convincing me that nothing other than a seastead would be sufficient to make this proposal even possible. Additionally you have convinced me that there is a reasonable chance that even a well funded attempt at a quality seastead might fail miserably. What you haven't convinced me of is that we shouldn't try. Sure relying on nations would be precarious. But from the view of the nation paying for defense would be a lot like us paying tax. Docking in their waters would give them instant cash influx. I know it seems like we really arnt free because we are being forced to pay government, but there would be the prospect of competition! nations offering competitive offers to get us to dock in their waters.

obviously it would have to be done right for this to apply, there would have to actually be a realistic prospect for the nation that would defend us to receive a noteworthy revenue stream from protecting us. So a couple of guys with inner-tubes wouldn't cut it.

Part of the reason why they may not be so resistant to the idea is that it would be EXTREMELY expensive at first. Only the very wealthy would be able to attempt this. But with time the technology could become cheaper and cheaper =D. It could sneak up on them for the same reason bitcoin wasnt 51%ed to death by the government from the first time they heard about it. they surely could have afforded to do this, very easily afforded to.

I think maybe you give governments more credit than is due for foresight.

always remember we dont have to be the tiger, we just have to be prickly like the porcupine. we just have to apply resources as efficiently as possible towards making it as expensive as possable (not just monetarily) for them to deal with us.

Remember also that we wouldnt need to rely on nationstates forever. We could develop our own defense capabilities with time.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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May 04, 2013, 12:36:11 AM
 #124

You have succeeded in convincing me that nothing other than a seastead would be sufficient to make this proposal even possible.
Step 1: Complete.

Additionally you have convinced me that there is a reasonable chance that even a well funded attempt at a quality seastead might fail miserably.
Step 2: Complete.

What you haven't convinced me of is that we shouldn't try.
Step 3: Fail... Back to step 2.

But from the view of the nation paying for defense would be a lot like us paying tax. Docking in their waters would give them instant cash influx. I know it seems like we really arnt free because we are being forced to pay government, but there would be the prospect of competition! nations offering competitive offers to get us to dock in their waters.
You actually just described Blueseed to a "T."

I know, I know... You were thinking of keeping some semblance of non-nationalism on board, perhaps like not flying the US flag or something to show the world where your heart "really" lies.

It's utter, wasteful silliness though at that point. No liberation whatsoever... Everyone on board will pay a tax to the host government no matter what that money is locally called... If payed to the USA for protection, then it'll be called a Tax by the IRS and reporters of the world... But even worse, the citizens of the USA that come to your boat will be called Americans and expected taxes from just as well! You could get double-taxed this way!

...If they don't pay either tax to the IRS? Claim sovereignty? I think you know what will happen then.

And before you say that many onboard would first renounce their citizenship, electing to pay that huge exit tax to the IRS before leaving; just remember that you can't renounce a citizenship without claiming another, recognized country as your home first. They just don't let anyone become stateless. It's against the big, black rulebook for all nations to follow.

So where would you renounce your citizenship too? I'm pretty sure "a boat offshore" won't be on their drop-down form. Neither would Sealand be on it... Wink In fact I doubt that they have every established nation on that form for you to choose from today.


obviously it would have to be done right for this to apply, there would have to actually be a realistic prospect for the nation that would defend us to receive a noteworthy revenue stream from protecting us.
I once tried (seriously) to design the defensive capabilities for a 100-man seastead. It had radar, sonar, gun towers at every corner, and a gun skiff to face any trouble away from the main population.

Everyone I told about it said that these additions were cost prohibitive, and even if 100 people all decided to split the cost it would be very considerable from a floating population that couldn't even produce the parts locally. (No gunpowder for the bullets... Gotta buy them from a nation.)

But then how could such pathetic defenses guard a single life from an anonymous torpedo? Even if you spot it with your sonar in time, those things blow up BIG. Aimed at the power plant or another central system, you can bet one single shot from any large government of this planet can anonymously kill everyone onboard and without much warning at all.

...And if they jam your coms or cut your link to the internet first, the whole world will only hear THEIR story about why we accidently set fire to our platform ourselves and tragically died before rescuers arrived.


It could sneak up on them for the same reason bitcoin wasnt 51%ed to death by the government from the first time they heard about it. they surely could have afforded to do this, very easily afforded to.
We don't register as a threat to them yet, but one day we will. We're not up to fighting them now, but there is reason to think that again, one day we will.

I hate to sound all doom and gloom; but the only way bitcoin will survive that scary day is if we decentralize everything around bitcoin first... Decentralized exchanges, decentralized service websites, decentralize ISPs, decentralized anything that the governments can shut down to hurt bitcoin.

If we aren't fast enough and smart enough, we WILL fully lose the freedom game until at least the next time a bloody revolution occurs and gives us relatively more freedom for 1-3 generations.


I think maybe you give governments more credit than is due for foresight.
I give them NO credit for their foresight... But you give them no credit for the size of their guns when they are properly "provoked."


always remember we dont have to be the tiger, we just have to be prickly like the porcupine. we just have to apply resources as efficiently as possible towards making it as expensive as possable (not just monetarily) for them to deal with us.
If your goal is to get away from them in the first place; you risk seriously provoking them already.

If you succeed in making a wealthy, thriving society that their tax slaves would ever want to leave them for, then you can't avoid their wrath. They cannot allow their sheeple to see some greener pastures elsewhere.


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May 04, 2013, 12:56:30 AM
 #125

I think renouncing state might not be so good idea. Unless you really want to spend rest of you life in one location.

Amount of places you get in without passport is limited, and for western world probably zero. Still, it is interesting question just where they would deport you in such case...

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May 04, 2013, 01:05:13 AM
 #126

You really need to give up your fixation on geographic separation. It's not possible here on this planet that they've conquered every last square inch of in the first place. But secondly, It would be a more desirable solution by far to wake everyone up and thereby conquer THIS land for anarchy.

The seastead idea was cool for about 20 minutes when I first heard about it - now it seems pretty dumb. There is no getting around the fact that if you want a truly voluntary society - you're gonna have to deal with the GLOBAL network of masonic, psychopathic, statist maniacs that insist on treating us like cattle. Oh yeah, and a lot of the bitcoin 'leaders' some of you want to follow? - they're in the same club!

So here's a REAL strategy:

1. Create an alternate currency (done)

2. Slowly, ANONYMOUSLY, start moving into a specific area, preferably one that is suffering the most from the economic downturn and isn't receiving a lot of federal funds (relatively anyway).

Basically the same as The Free State Project, but in a more remote area.
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May 04, 2013, 01:10:03 AM
 #127

You really need to give up your fixation on geographic separation. It's not possible here on this planet that they've conquered every last square inch of in the first place. But secondly, It would be a more desirable solution by far to wake everyone up and thereby conquer THIS land for anarchy.

The seastead idea was cool for about 20 minutes when I first heard about it - now it seems pretty dumb. There is no getting around the fact that if you want a truly voluntary society - you're gonna have to deal with the GLOBAL network of masonic, psychopathic, statist maniacs that insist on treating us like cattle. Oh yeah, and a lot of the bitcoin 'leaders' some of you want to follow? - they're in the same club!

So here's a REAL strategy:

1. Create an alternate currency (done)

2. Slowly, ANONYMOUSLY, start moving into a specific area, preferably one that is suffering the most from the economic downturn and isn't receiving a lot of federal funds (relatively anyway).

Basically the same as The Free State Project, but in a more remote area.


Actually statist aren't that bad. It's those psycopaths who want everything for themselves... And I mean everything, not just something like socialist... Think about those old good kings and feudal lords... And once they have bigger army, there isn't much going against them...

Or maybe I'm just too pessimist...

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BTCLuke
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May 04, 2013, 01:17:12 AM
 #128

So here's a REAL strategy:

1. Create an alternate currency (done)

2. Slowly, ANONYMOUSLY, start moving into a specific area, preferably one that is suffering the most from the economic downturn and isn't receiving a lot of federal funds (relatively anyway).

Basically the same as The Free State Project, but in a more remote area.
What's the advantage to being near each other? Last time I checked, the internet was global.

I can't think of a real advantage to any such grouping except maybe some feel-good moments with the neighbors.
(Inb4 some noob says you can change the local laws)

Meanwhile, there is a major disadvantage to grouping everyone the government wants to get rid of in one area... I think I'll let your imagination do the rest on that explanation.

Since bitcoin taught me a lot about decentralization, I've been waking up more and more to the fact that decentralizing everything is the one, true path to freedom... And to just being a better humanity in general.

In fact I'm now convinced that aliens are never going to contact us because if they are advanced enough to get here, then they live in an advanced, anarchist society that generally doesn't build any such enterprise... It takes too much centralization to work on something that large.

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May 04, 2013, 01:28:00 AM
 #129


What's the advantage to being near each other? Last time I checked, the internet was global.

I can't think of a real advantage to any such grouping except maybe some feel-good moments with the neighbors.
(Inb4 some noob says you can change the local laws)

Meanwhile, there is a major disadvantage to grouping everyone the government wants to get rid of in one area... I think I'll let your imagination do the rest on that explanation.

Since bitcoin taught me a lot about decentralization, I've been waking up more and more to the fact that decentralizing everything is the one, true path to freedom... And to just being a better humanity in general.


It's not really about "being near each other", it's about having a majority mind share in a small town. I can think of a small town I was in that had only about 300 residents. Out of those 300, there were maybe about 33 parasites that would have to be dealt with, but the majority of the town was pretty simple minded and would conform to the majority.

If we start seeing astronomical bitcoin prices, the anarchists moving into the area would be able to use their new wealth to win over the local folks as well, especially if they are suffering from a crashing dollar.
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May 04, 2013, 02:23:08 AM
 #130


What's the advantage to being near each other? Last time I checked, the internet was global.

I can't think of a real advantage to any such grouping except maybe some feel-good moments with the neighbors.
(Inb4 some noob says you can change the local laws)

Meanwhile, there is a major disadvantage to grouping everyone the government wants to get rid of in one area... I think I'll let your imagination do the rest on that explanation.

Since bitcoin taught me a lot about decentralization, I've been waking up more and more to the fact that decentralizing everything is the one, true path to freedom... And to just being a better humanity in general.


It's not really about "being near each other", it's about having a majority mind share in a small town. I can think of a small town I was in that had only about 300 residents. Out of those 300, there were maybe about 33 parasites that would have to be dealt with, but the majority of the town was pretty simple minded and would conform to the majority.

If we start seeing astronomical bitcoin prices, the anarchists moving into the area would be able to use their new wealth to win over the local folks as well, especially if they are suffering from a crashing dollar.

If we are going to just try to do something like the free state project except we move to a small sovereign nation than it looks like Saint Kitts and Nevis might be our best bet. Its near the us has a very small population and one of the freest immigration policies of any nation in the world. You can actually become a citizen without even moving there.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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May 04, 2013, 02:42:15 AM
 #131

It's not really about "being near each other", it's about having a majority mind share in a small town.
And then what?


If we are going to just try to do something like the free state project except we move to a small sovereign nation than it looks like Saint Kitts and Nevis might be our best bet. Its near the us has a very small population and one of the freest immigration policies of any nation in the world. You can actually become a citizen without even moving there.
It's very easy to move to Nevis, and the place is full of swaying palm trees and golf courses... But that's all beside the point here.

What is the advantage so worthy of making us all sitting ducks like this, concentrated in one place?

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May 04, 2013, 07:12:10 AM
 #132

It's not really about "being near each other", it's about having a majority mind share in a small town.
And then what?


If we are going to just try to do something like the free state project except we move to a small sovereign nation than it looks like Saint Kitts and Nevis might be our best bet. Its near the us has a very small population and one of the freest immigration policies of any nation in the world. You can actually become a citizen without even moving there.
It's very easy to move to Nevis, and the place is full of swaying palm trees and golf courses... But that's all beside the point here.

What is the advantage so worthy of making us all sitting ducks like this, concentrated in one place?

Why would anyone have to really know who's who and exactly how many of us are actually in such a town when this could all be done anonymously?

The idea is that there is power in numbers.
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May 04, 2013, 10:09:07 AM
 #133

It's not really about "being near each other", it's about having a majority mind share in a small town. I can think of a small town I was in that had only about 300 residents. Out of those 300, there were maybe about 33 parasites that would have to be dealt with, but the majority of the town was pretty simple minded and would conform to the majority.

Yeah, let's start our own Amish community of 21-st century Smiley

Or maybe something like Aum Shinrikyo? We would start our day early in the morning with a chant "bit... coin... om... bit... coin... om...".

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May 05, 2013, 12:51:52 AM
 #134

Has anyone watched Sirius the documentary? Maybe OP could watch it and contact the owners, sounds like the merging of our efforts would increase our chances greatly.
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May 05, 2013, 03:19:10 AM
 #135

Just randomly I happen to learn about this site. It may not have anything to do with buying an island, but I thought this could contribute to the project somehow. This is a company who could help in the logistical studies of development, cost estimation and other architectural problems. Not only that, his company accepts bitcoin.

http://www.waterstudio.nl/

Those of you invested in the project should give the guy a call. He was describing a concept of floating modules up to the size of a small island. Maybe an hybrid between a floating city anchored to an atoll could be a cost effective solution?

Sorry if this was already posted as I did not read every reply.
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May 05, 2013, 06:43:24 AM
 #136

sounds like the merging of our efforts would increase our chances greatly.

Okay, here's my official statement on the idea of merging/joining any other groups with this one.  I am not interested in joining this project with any other group unless we end up with at least as much control over the physical environment as we would have had otherwise.  This is for obvious reasons.  A major purpose of creating a Bitcoin Island community, besides the economic advantages of being in close proximity to other Bitcoin users, is to be able to enhance the physical security of such a community beyond that possible in almost any other environment.

As has been pointed out already, we don't want to just gather together to be "sitting ducks".  We want to gather together in order to create a safe environment in which to collaborate on new Bitcoin applications that would not be possible otherwise.  Both the fact that we would be a target, and the fact that we want to be more secure in general, require a certain degree of isolation from the general public.  To a certain extent, this includes other, unrelated groups.

That having been said, this does not necessarily mean that we need our own island to ourselves.  It just means that we need to have a reasonable measure of control over our physical security.  I think that sharing an island with a compatible group is a definite possibility, especially so for a group that has similar needs.

Now, with respect to Sirius specifically, I haven't seen the documentary.  I haven't seen anything about their plans.  But I have an idea of what their project would be about.  In my opinion, it sounds like it would not be in conflict with our goals.  Some details would obviously need to be worked out.  But in my view it is a workable idea... an island to save the world.  Wink

I am interested to hear what others think.

One torpedo from an anonymous submarine would end that experiment real quick.

Along these same lines, I think I should point out that this project is not considering any type of man-made, floating structure.

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May 05, 2013, 02:20:26 PM
 #137

We just need the money, the will, and cooperation for this to work. Really

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May 05, 2013, 02:23:20 PM
 #138

sounds like the merging of our efforts would increase our chances greatly.

Okay, here's my official statement on the idea of merging/joining any other groups with this one.  I am not interested in joining this project with any other group unless we end up with at least as much control over the physical environment as we would have had otherwise.  This is for obvious reasons.  A major purpose of creating a Bitcoin Island community, besides the economic advantages of being in close proximity to other Bitcoin users, is to be able to enhance the physical security of such a community beyond that possible in almost any other environment.

As has been pointed out already, we don't want to just gather together to be "sitting ducks".  We want to gather together in order to create a safe environment in which to collaborate on new Bitcoin applications that would not be possible otherwise.  Both the fact that we would be a target, and the fact that we want to be more secure in general, require a certain degree of isolation from the general public.  To a certain extent, this includes other, unrelated groups.

That having been said, this does not necessarily mean that we need our own island to ourselves.  It just means that we need to have a reasonable measure of control over our physical security.  I think that sharing an island with a compatible group is a definite possibility, especially so for a group that has similar needs.

Now, with respect to Sirius specifically, I haven't seen the documentary.  I haven't seen anything about their plans.  But I have an idea of what their project would be about.  In my opinion, it sounds like it would not be in conflict with our goals.  Some details would obviously need to be worked out.  But in my view it is a workable idea... an island to save the world.  Wink

I am interested to hear what others think.

One torpedo from an anonymous submarine would end that experiment real quick.

Along these same lines, I think I should point out that this project is not considering any type of man-made, floating structure.

They also want to be in a remote location where they will have a safe heaven to research alternative energy, I am confident they will accept the free market with open arms.
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May 05, 2013, 03:37:17 PM
 #139

Security from who?

What is the threat assessment?

Why does this thread read like a bunch of 14 year old kids planning to run away from home so they don't have to do chores any more?

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May 05, 2013, 07:05:44 PM
 #140

If you need  Bitcoin Crowdfunding for this Bitcoin Island look no further  Wink

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