Need Help - Looking for 240v Power Surge Protection

[Starsky886]

Hello,

I want to switch my rigs on 240v for the sake of not busting my max amp, but I can't find any Power Surge protector or a proper system to protect my rigs on 240v.
Would you guys have any suggestion on what I could use?
I actually have 100+ GPUs to protect.

I dont mind if I have to pay a little more to get better protection

Thank you very much!

[1715111774]

1715111774

[1715111774]

1715111774

[1715111774]

1715111774

[Starsky886]

Any help please ?

[HagssFIN]

Sounds like the best option would be asking professional electrician to come and install surge protectors in your fuse box.

Try searching "surge protector dehn"
and you know what I mean.

There are some good explaining pictures in the picture search.

[SA007]

Basically there are 3 levels of surge protection:
- Direct lightning strike, Type 1.
These things are fucking huge, think 19" cage filled with biggass MOV's and spark gaps.

- Normal building ones, Type 2.
These you mount in your fusebox and protect the feed it is on from high overvoltages, but not direct strikes.
They are the size of a large current breaker.

- Plug-pack of socket strip type ones, Type 3.
The only protect the device directly connected to it.
These you also have for phone line, ethernet, etc.

In some countries having type 2 is mandatory, I have one here because I can, my electrician didn't know they existed (sigh).

Type 3 isn't very useful without a type 2 nearby, they can't protect against a lot of power (since they are small).

Keep in mind they they need a really good ground connection to be effective, if they can't short high power to ground they won't do a thing.

Besides the types you have ones that protect phase/neutral separately to ground and types that protect them to each other and then to ground.
The difference between them is not that huge, the second type usually has a lot lower activation voltage on neutral, but most devices can have mains voltage on the neutral without problems so that doesn't really matter.
The type 3 ones are always the first type, simply because you can't count on the neutral being on the correct pin, type 2 ones are mostly the latter.

[qctechno]

You can add a PDU between your miner and 240V input. This will add a layer of protection.

I purchased one here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1834272.0

Seller still have some and didn't ask much for them.

PDF Manual here
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUKEwjynqLGwu3SAhUi94MKHZm8BEAQFgg2MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avocent.com%2FResources%2FDocuments%2FInstaller_-_User_Guides%2FCyclades_PM_IPDU_Installer_User_Guide.aspx&usg=AFQjCNFTZlulMoSEwaTWjrFbA86cYQd09g&sig2=jcua-LgA4MwbNtsp63HL7w&cad=rja

[NiHaoMike]

If you have great electronics experience or know a friend who does, DIY a surge protector for far cheaper than buying one.
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/4910-jelly-jar-surge-protector.html

And I do highly recommend also using motor run caps so that small surges (which are very common - think inductive spikes from switching loads) do not add wear to the MOVs.

Other than that, SurgeX claims to have an alternative design that is superior to conventional MOV designs, but is a lot more expensive. It's a big series inductor plus an active clamp. Should be possible to DIY one but even that isn't going to be cheap unless you're good at hunting down cheap (and still in good condition) surplus parts to build it with.

[Starsky886]

Thank you guys for your very well explained answers.

The problem I have, is that I've been contacting many proffessional electrician, local store and they dont know anything about what I want to achieve.
I've been doing research and what I'm thinking is to buy something like this for my main panel: ( https://www.amazon.ca/Eaton-CHSPT2ULTRA-1-Phase-Whole-Protection/dp/B01AQAKRSS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1490458133&sr=8-1&keywords=eaton+surge+protector )
What is your opinion about a product like this?

I also want to buy something like Qctechno mentionned, to put a PDU between my miner and my power input.

You can add a PDU between your miner and 240V input. This will add a layer of protection.

I purchased one here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1834272.0

The problem is, I only find PDU online with 24+ power plug... I can't find any with around 4 to 8 power plugs only with decent surge protector in it.
Would you guys have any idea of a brand or where I could find these online?
And what is important to check in the specs of PDUs to be sure they will correctly protect my rigs ?

Thank you again and I wish you all a good day!

[westom]

An effective protector is only a connecting device to something completely different that actually absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.  Best protection at each appliance is already inside each appliance.  Your concern is a rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that can overwhelm protection is anything (including robust protection already inside computers).

That Eaton 'whole house' protector is one well proven solution.  But again, it is only as effective as its eaarth ground.  Care is required to make sure that breaker box protector makes a low impedance (ie less than  10 foot) connection to single point earth ground.  Also all other incoming utilities (TV cable, telephone, satellite dish, invisible dog fence) must make a low impedance connection (ie hardwire ha no sharp bends) to that same ground.  Otherwise all protection is compromised.

That is your 'secondary' protection layer. Again, each protector is only as effective as its earth ground (that plug-in protectors do not have and will not discuss).  Inspect your 'primary' protection layer.  Relevant pictures (ignore text) about half way down and after the expression "more safety hazards" demonstrate what must be inspected to protect computers and everything else.

Ignore Type 1, 2, and 3 descriptions.  Those define human safety.  A type 3 protector in a type 1 location seriously increases fire risk.  Effective protectors are not defined by 'Type'.  They are defined by a connection to and quality of earth ground - for protection during each surge.  And are defined by a spec number (ie 50,000 amps) - for life expectancy of the protection.

Protection is always an answer to this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[HagssFIN]

If they don't know about surge protection, then you have talked to some un-professional professional electricians.

[westom]

If they don't know about surge protection, then you have talked to some un-professional professional electricians.

Many electricians do not know how or why a 'whole house' protector is so effective.  Electricians are taught what must connect to what - as defined by a code that only addresses human safety.  Fundamental concepts that apply to surge protection (impedance, equipotential, single point earth ground, etc) are not taught to electricians.  Since those concepts are not relevant to protecting human life or meeting the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Concept is simple.  No protector (not even a 'whole house' protector) does protection. Protectors are only connecting devices to what does protection - just like a lightning rod.

Lightning rod connects to protection to protect a structure.  Protector connects to protection to protect appliances inside that structure.  Both must be installed to not threaten human life.  Code (and Type 1, 2, 3) defines that aspect. But code (and Type 1, 2, 3) says nothing about why 'protection' makes an effective solution.

For example, follow a bare copper wire that goes from breaker box to earth ground.  If that hardwire goes up over a foundation and down to an earthing electrode, then it satisfied code (for human protection). And may compromise surge protection.  Wire my be too long (ie more than 10 feet).  Multiple sharp bends over a foundation are code acceptable but compromise protection.  Many electricians would not know this. Training is only about codes for human safety.  Their training typically says nothing about appliance protection.

Another critical number is a protector's ampere number.  Lightning is typically 20,000 amps.  So a minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps.  Number says little about protection during each surge.  It defines protector life expectancy over many decades and many direct lightning strikes.  Only better informed electricians would know that.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

On top of that, in the US there *are* NEC regs covering protective devices including surge suppression NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code (NEC), Section 285. A good coverage of it and more importantly - proper implementation - is http://ecmweb.com/code-basics/surge-suppression-devices

Key point for your electrician to reference:
"Installation. SPDs aren't essential to the prevention of fires, so the NEC doesn't require anyone to install them. However, incorrect installation poses a hazard. Therefore, if you install SPDs, you must install them per Art. 285. Don't install SPDs in any of the following applications [285.3]: "

[westom]

SPDs aren't essential to the prevention of fires, ...

SPDs do not prevent fires.  SPDs can create fires.  Power strip protectors are especially dangerous.  If one is found in luggage on a cruise ship, it may be confiscated.  Ships do more to protect from fire - such as confiscate those near zero joule power strip protectors.

Article says, "install them per Art. 285."  That does not make a protector effective - do appliance protection.  That only addresses a human safety issues - do human protection.

An effective protector must make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground.  Citation does state wires must not have sharp bends.  But does not say why.  It is written for electricians - who typically do not know how electricity works.  Who are mostly taught what must connect to what for human safety.

Article does not say why a protector must connect to earth ground (not safety ground).  Plug-in protectors are ineffective (for so many reasons) because safety ground has numerous sharp bends - has excessive impedance.  'Whole house' protector is effective when it makes a low impedance (ie no sharp wire bends) connection to single point earth ground.  All four words have electrical significance - not defined by the article.

Article does not discuss what or why is critical.  It mentions no sharp wire bends and wires as short as possible (ie less than 10 feet to earth).   Article notes things an electrician must know.  For example, it accurately says 'Type' does not define an effective protector.  Type (1, 2, 3) addresses human safety issues.  Article does not discuss other critical considerations (ie single point earth ground).  It is written for installers - ie electricians.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Article does not mention that.  Single point earth ground is critical for effective protection. That earth ground (not a protector) should have most of your attention.  Only better electricians would know that.

If anything needs that protection, then everything needs that protection.  Just another reason why a 'whole house' solution is the only proven solution.  Electricians (and every homeowner) should know that.  Many do not.

[damprfield]

Not sure why no one gave you a good answer.

These digital logger PDUs seem to fit what you need - https://www.digital-loggers.com/220.html .

For my ASICs, I ended up finding a good deal on new Eaton UPS's on ebay. 400$ for Eaton 9130s, 1800W.

[westom]

OP asked for "Power Surge protector or a proper system to protect my rigs on 240v."  That digital logger PDU does not claim any such protection.  

If it did, a post would have defined that protection and why it works - with numbers.  That recommendation was made without any reasons to believe it.  And no numbers.  A perfect example of how to suspect it is a bogus or scam recommendation.

It does not even claim to  do what the OP requested?  So why was it recommended?  A question that asks for the missing and required whats and whys.

[damprfield]

OP asked for "Power Surge protector or a proper system to protect my rigs on 240v."  That digital logger PDU does not claim any such protection.  

If it did, a post would have defined that protection and why it works - with numbers.  That recommendation was made without any reasons to believe it.  And no numbers.  A perfect example of how to suspect it is a bogus or scam recommendation.

It does not even claim to  do what the OP requested?  So why was it recommended?  A question that asks for the missing and required whats and whys.

wow the forum has gotten quite hostile, it was just a suggestion

I take it you did not read the specifications of the 240V PDU digital logger is offering which includes Surge Protection 580J 25,000A MOV. How is that not exactly what he needs. Yes it is a smaller company, with meh documentation. You could find a similar thing from one of the bigger server like Tripp-Lite or APC with less features.

[westom]

 I take it you did not read the specifications of the 240V PDU digital logger is offering which includes Surge Protection 580J 25,000A MOV.

I take it that you completely ignored that 580 joule numbers until challenged.  And ignored previously posted numbers.  Nothing is hostile.  You ignored facts and did not post numbers. That is (at minimum) deceptive.

580 joule number defines a "near zero joule protector".  How near zero?  If any smaller, it must be zero.  But its joules are just above zero.  So it is promoted as 100% protection? Why?  You ignored numbers.

Also ignored:

An effective protector is only a connecting device to something completely different that actually absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules.

 And

Protection is always an answer to this question.  Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Where is that PDU's low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground? No earth ground means no effective protection.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.  Again, where are hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorbed?

Nothing hostile.  An honest answer always says 'why' and with numbers.

Electronics will routinely convert a 600 joule surge into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors.  Protection (superior to what is inside a PDU) is already inside each appliance.  Concern is for a rare surge - maybe once every seven years - that can overwhelm superior and existing protection inside electronics.

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed.  Then robust protection inside each appliance (refrigerator, dishwasher, dimmer switches, TVs, clocks, smoke detectors, etc) is not overwhelmed.  Then near zero joules in a PDU are protected.  This superior solution (always found in every facility that cannot have damage) costs about $1 per protected appliance.  But it is mostly unknown to many only educated by advertising and hearsay.

580 joules is near zero (ineffective) protection.  Tripplite and APC have more and still near zero joules.  Those companies also are not on a list of companies known for integrity - and effective protectors.  Worse, a PDU and those other protectors do not even have a low impedance (ie hardwire has no splices) connection to single point earth ground.  From over 100 years of well proven science and experience (another number): a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[Zared]

Westom, thanks so much for shedding light on what would seem like common sense. Yet, I was completely ignorant of this information.

[fanatic26]

Your power supplies should be all the protection you ever need. I would hope with that many rigs you are running quality PSUs and not some ATX garbage to power them. I have managed multi-megawatt facilities and surge protection was never even brought up as an issue even on unregulated power.

[westom]

Westom, thanks so much for shedding light on what would seem like common sense.

I would anchor my kayak in some moving rapids at the end of the day.  Then sit there, facing upstream, watching raging water (and sometimes other boats) flow by while enjoying a beer.

One time, water had risen by a few feet (a dam release).  Suddenly I could no longer go up front to pull up that anchor.  The kayak would submarine.

I remember this next thought quite distinctly.  I have no idea how I am going to get out of this one.  Best part was waiting to learn how I did.  I had no doubt the problem would be solved.  And absolutely not a clue how it would.

That comes from years of addressing technical problems - especially electronics.  Having no idea how it was going to get fixed.  And yet knowing, without doubt, that I would solve it.

At the end is always this revelation.  Both obvious and simple.  I no longer ask, "Why did you not see it before?"  Because in life, simple and obvious solutions always follow what we never knew was possible.

Same applies to surge protection.  Most have never learned how protection really works.  Most only wait to be told how to think.  And therefore would still be anchored in those rapids.

Absolutely amazing how obvious and simple so many solution really are - once one learn how to break problems down into parts, learn why each problem must be understood long before a solution is even considered, and perspective.  Surge protection (as described) has always been that simple even 100 years ago.  Most difficult part is getting someone to learn how to solve a problem by first learning how to think through it.  Then one routinely sees both an insurmountable problem and an adventure - just waiting to see how that problem will be (without doubt) solved.

The most expensive protection devices do little to nothing.  Protection has always been about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly absorb.  That means a solution is never found in a magic box.  A protector is always and only as effective as its earth ground.  That is the '*of course*' moment.

[westom]

I would hope with that many rigs you are running quality PSUs and not some ATX garbage to power them.

Every power supply that meets ATX standard is superior to so many less robust or just as at risk appliances.  What protected the dishwasher, dimmer switches, furnace, door bell, vacuum cleaner, GFCIs, dryer, toaster, LED & CFL bulbs, garage door opener, central air, and clocks?  Why are those not replaced every month or year?  Because all appliances (especially all power supplies that meet ATX standards) remain function for decades.  How often this year have you replaced surge damaged smoke detectors?

All appliance contain robust protection.  Concern is for a rare anomaly, maybe once every seven years, that might damage some.  That is why informed consumers spend $1 per protected appliance for the properly and properly earthed 'whole house' solution.

Blaming the supply is too often due to not even identifying why a failure occurs.  Most ATX supply failures are due to manufacturing defects - which no surge protection (not even effective and properly earthed) can avert.

ATX power supply is a most robust electrical device.  Those other appliances are at much greater risk.