As real as it gets

[vm_mpn]

Quote from another post which actually made me come the f..k down a bit, think, and have a sympathy for the opposite side of this whole block size debate. I honestly thought this particular bitcoiner was just a rigid ideologue, but I was wrong - this scaling issue is as real to him and  thousands of other bitcoiners as it gets. Instead of fighting our personal believes / ideology / philosophy may be we should start with that.

I'm a relatively small Bitcoin investor but I also actually pay my employees in Bitcoin.  It saves me thousands of dollars a year vs Paypal.  The recent network congestion was a firsthand exposure of the dangers of failing utility as transactions started getting stuck and fees became dangerously uncompetitive.

Personally, I have always viewed Bitcoin as a precious commodity and a store of value first. As any other working stiff who has to wake up early in the morning, go to work, come back after dark completely exhausted, I wanted to find a monetary system where my sweat, my time and my energy were exchanged for honest form of money... Form of money which does not get diluted, does not split in two or three, and does not loose it's value over time. Outside more traditional precious metals Bitcoin was an obvious choice for me (despite being a risky one). That's why I wanted to see at least 90% consensus (not 51, 60 or 75) before any Bitcoin hard fork could be seriously considered. That said I do not have any valid arguments against larger blocks, faster transaction confirmations and lower fees, if solution is graceful, does not destroy Bitcoin brand, rarity and trust of over half of it's users.

[AgentofCoin]

...That said I do not have any valid arguments against larger blocks, faster transaction confirmations and lower fees, if solution is graceful, does not destroy Bitcoin brand, rarity and trust of over half of it's users.

What about if it hurts it's current decentralized and unregulatable nature?
Do you think Bitcoin could continue to exist or be valuable without them?

I'm all for on-chain scaling and lower fees too, but not if in 5 years Bitcoin is directly
regulated by governments. Look what China is currently doing to their Chinese Exchanges.
You think they wouldn't do that to the protocol if they could?

Satoshi made Bitcoin to be bigger than a low fee payment system, it was for freedom.
Would you sacrifice your freedom so that you and that business could have lower fees?

[vm_mpn]

...That said I do not have any valid arguments against larger blocks, faster transaction confirmations and lower fees, if solution is graceful, does not destroy Bitcoin brand, rarity and trust of over half of it's users.

What about if it hurts it's current decentralized and unregulatable nature?
Do you think Bitcoin could continue to exist or be valuable without them?

I'm all for on-chain scaling and lower fees too, but not if in 5 years Bitcoin is directly
regulated by governments. Look what China is currently doing to their Chinese Exchanges.
You think they wouldn't do that to the protocol if they could?

Satoshi made Bitcoin to be bigger than a low fee payment system, it was for freedom.

Yes, all valid arguments... What China is doing is already done here in the US.

[AgentofCoin]

...That said I do not have any valid arguments against larger blocks, faster transaction confirmations and lower fees, if solution is graceful, does not destroy Bitcoin brand, rarity and trust of over half of it's users.

What about if it hurts it's current decentralized and unregulatable nature?
Do you think Bitcoin could continue to exist or be valuable without them?

I'm all for on-chain scaling and lower fees too, but not if in 5 years Bitcoin is directly
regulated by governments. Look what China is currently doing to their Chinese Exchanges.
You think they wouldn't do that to the protocol if they could?

Satoshi made Bitcoin to be bigger than a low fee payment system, it was for freedom.

Yes, all valid arguments... What China is doing is already done here in the US.

No. In the US and Europe, you can transfer your Bitcoin throughout the world without
restriction or monitoring. China wants to restrict exchange ledger withdrawals to only
other verified people within the country and into other exchanges. Their new regulation
is about restriction, not tax compliance. They want to stop wealth from leaving their
economy (bitcoin has been used by their elites to buy foreign property and etc).

Only time will tell what the impact this will have on bitcoin in the long run.

[vm_mpn]

No. In the US and Europe, you can transfer your Bitcoin throughout the world.
China wants to restrict exchange ledger withdrawals to only other verified people
within the country. Their new regulation is about restriction, not tax compliance.
Only time will tell what the impact this will have on bitcoin in the long run.

Hmm, haven't realized it was that bad... I thought they were trying to enforce KYC rules similar to what others have done, but I guess I'm just ill-informed.

[AgentofCoin]

No. In the US and Europe, you can transfer your Bitcoin throughout the world.
China wants to restrict exchange ledger withdrawals to only other verified people
within the country. Their new regulation is about restriction, not tax compliance.
Only time will tell what the impact this will have on bitcoin in the long run.

Hmm, haven't realized it was that bad... I thought they were trying to enforce KYC rules similar to what others have done, but I guess I'm just ill-informed.

We will see how bad it is in a few weeks to months when they release a new update.

But whatever the result, as long a Bitcoin's protocol remains resistant to governments,
they can not attempt to regulate the Bitcoin blockchain directly. That would only be
possible if we over expand too soon and compromise ourselves.

So I wish for low fees and more txs within a block too, but then things must be sacrificed
for that. We can never have everything in this world. It one or the other usually.

[Mometaskers]

...That said I do not have any valid arguments against larger blocks, faster transaction confirmations and lower fees, if solution is graceful, does not destroy Bitcoin brand, rarity and trust of over half of it's users.

What about if it hurts it's current decentralized and unregulatable nature?
Do you think Bitcoin could continue to exist or be valuable without them?

I'm all for on-chain scaling and lower fees too, but not if in 5 years Bitcoin is directly
regulated by governments. Look what China is currently doing to their Chinese Exchanges.
You think they wouldn't do that to the protocol if they could?

Satoshi made Bitcoin to be bigger than a low fee payment system, it was for freedom.

Yes, all valid arguments... What China is doing is already done here in the US.

No. In the US and Europe, you can transfer your Bitcoin throughout the world without
restriction or monitoring. China wants to restrict exchange ledger withdrawals to only
other verified people within the country and into other exchanges. Their new regulation
is about restriction, not tax compliance. They want to stop wealth from leaving their
economy (bitcoin has been used by their elites to buy foreign property and etc).

Only time will tell what the impact this will have on bitcoin in the long run.

Yup, that seem to be the main reason they're clamping on bitcoin. Despite any progress they'll boast, many people there, even the rich, would leave it if given just enough reason. If the middle class there would spend money to send their pregnant family members to pregnancy clinics in the US to take advantage of jus soli. If they would shell out that much money for that, just imagine what ways the rich are trying to make sure they can leave at any moment's notice.

[P4ndoraBox]

Nice read here.

[aarons6]

i just spent 330$ in bitcoin, 4,746 bytes it cost me 3.80$ in fees and was confirmed in 36 minutes. (2 blocks)

as far as a general purchase the fee was high and i could have used paypal or debit.. and saved money.


bitcoin will never be a real currency as long as we have to pay this much to use it..

[Amph]

i just spent 330$ in bitcoin, 4,746 bytes it cost me 3.80$ in fees and was confirmed in 36 minutes. (2 blocks)

as far as a general purchase the fee was high and i could have used paypal or debit.. and saved money.


bitcoin will never be a real currency as long as we have to pay this much to use it..

actually you are increasing the average fee by paying more, if more and more people agree to pay less, the average will be lower over tiem, so it's u to you not the miners, miners are not forcing users to pay more fee

just pay less, and wait more for now, and use the accelerator, and even without it with half of the fee neded it should confirm in few hours

[Schuyler]

i just spent 330$ in bitcoin, 4,746 bytes it cost me 3.80$ in fees and was confirmed in 36 minutes. (2 blocks)

as far as a general purchase the fee was high and i could have used paypal or debit.. and saved money.


bitcoin will never be a real currency as long as we have to pay this much to use it..

actually you are increasing the average fee by paying more, if more and more people agree to pay less, the average will be lower over tiem, so it's u to you not the miners, miners are not forcing users to pay more fee

just pay less, and wait more for now, and use the accelerator, and even without it with half of the fee neded it should confirm in few hours

But the thing with lesser fees is that there's a chance that your transactions get confirmed way longer. What if you really need to have your transactions done very quickly, when it should be the norm even at lower transaction fees. Clearly, this doesn't make it too attractive for people who would otherwise other forms of payment schemes.
 

[Kakmakr]

...That said I do not have any valid arguments against larger blocks, faster transaction confirmations and lower fees, if solution is graceful, does not destroy Bitcoin brand, rarity and trust of over half of it's users.

What about if it hurts it's current decentralized and unregulatable nature?
Do you think Bitcoin could continue to exist or be valuable without them?

I'm all for on-chain scaling and lower fees too, but not if in 5 years Bitcoin is directly
regulated by governments. Look what China is currently doing to their Chinese Exchanges.
You think they wouldn't do that to the protocol if they could?

Satoshi made Bitcoin to be bigger than a low fee payment system, it was for freedom.

Yes, all valid arguments... What China is doing is already done here in the US.

No. In the US and Europe, you can transfer your Bitcoin throughout the world without
restriction or monitoring. China wants to restrict exchange ledger withdrawals to only
other verified people within the country and into other exchanges. Their new regulation
is about restriction, not tax compliance. They want to stop wealth from leaving their
economy (bitcoin has been used by their elites to buy foreign property and etc).

Only time will tell what the impact this will have on bitcoin in the long run.

It will have a impact on the people who will still be using regulated exchanges after this "cleanup" by their government, but most of them have already moved to other alternative to continue without them. The Chinese government wants to protect their economy and their local currency, but decentralized Crypto currencies will not be stopped.

I can still earn Bitcoin and use it online for whatever I want and accumulate wealth to be spend in another country.

[ziggy2]

"the fee was high and i could have used paypal or debit.. and saved money."

As fas as I know, Paypal is now  - since 2013 - sending your private data and transaction information to Falsebook, G(l)oo(my)gle, and any other third parties, and they have practically no limits in gathering (stealing), and processing your personal data and purchases, so as to make money with your "profile", etc. Not to mention the use that any GAFAMP (+other official or non official organisations) can do with this information.
In  my opinion, although the use BTC is not of course completely free of any such risks, it is still much safer from this standpoint. This is an important reason why many people use it on a large scale and why it has been growing so fast in value and in volume.
And, as someone else said, the fee can be adjusted so as to improve the balance "speed/cost". If I'm not wrong, there are many other reasons why BTC is superior to traditonal currencies, including irreversibility.

[aarons6]

i just spent 330$ in bitcoin, 4,746 bytes it cost me 3.80$ in fees and was confirmed in 36 minutes. (2 blocks)

as far as a general purchase the fee was high and i could have used paypal or debit.. and saved money.


bitcoin will never be a real currency as long as we have to pay this much to use it..

actually you are increasing the average fee by paying more, if more and more people agree to pay less, the average will be lower over tiem, so it's u to you not the miners, miners are not forcing users to pay more fee

just pay less, and wait more for now, and use the accelerator, and even without it with half of the fee neded it should confirm in few hours

you must never buy anything online with bitcoin and just hold yours and complain about fees..

if you buy something on say newegg, they give you only about an hour before they CANCEL your order for bitcoin to confirm..
if you take too long, they have to issue you out a CARD that has CREDIT on it for you to use later.. takes about 3 maybe 4 days.. it is most annoying and you have to make sure to use the default fee or you wont ever get what you are buying

[aarons6]

"the fee was high and i could have used paypal or debit.. and saved money."

As fas as I know, Paypal is now  - since 2013 - sending your private data and transaction information to Falsebook, G(l)oo(my)gle, and any other third parties, and they have practically no limits in gathering (stealing), and processing your personal data and purchases, so as to make money with your "profile", etc. Not to mention the use that any GAFAMP (+other official or non official organisations) can do with this information.
In  my opinion, although the use BTC is not of course completely free of any such risks, it is still much safer from this standpoint. This is an important reason why many people use it on a large scale and why it has been growing so fast in value and in volume.
And, as someone else said, the fee can be adjusted so as to improve the balance "speed/cost". If I'm not wrong, there are many other reasons why BTC is superior to traditonal currencies, including irreversibility.

i hate to break it to you, but as soon as i got confirmation on my newegg account google popped up asking about my purchase.. so even using bitcoin it didnt save me from that.

[Catmony]

i just spent 330$ in bitcoin, 4,746 bytes it cost me 3.80$ in fees and was confirmed in 36 minutes. (2 blocks)

as far as a general purchase the fee was high and i could have used paypal or debit.. and saved money.


bitcoin will never be a real currency as long as we have to pay this much to use it..

-> You have only paid around 1% in fees which can't be considered so much if you compare it with what you may have to pay in other centralized payment processors like paypal. And don't forget to include possible chargebacks. 

-> Don't know why you think paypal will charge you lower than that, personally i end up paying more than 2-3% + some fixed amount as fee.

-> Bitcoin is not a real currency, its just a digital asset with lots of community support which make it more valuable than any fiat.

[aarons6]

i just spent 330$ in bitcoin, 4,746 bytes it cost me 3.80$ in fees and was confirmed in 36 minutes. (2 blocks)

as far as a general purchase the fee was high and i could have used paypal or debit.. and saved money.


bitcoin will never be a real currency as long as we have to pay this much to use it..

-> Don't know why you think paypal will charge you lower than that, personally i end up paying more than 2-3% + some fixed amount as fee.

paypal gave me a debit card and when i use it they give me 1.5% cash back at the end of the month.. the money comes right out of my bank and ive never had to pay a fee yet..