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Author Topic: Newbie questions  (Read 647 times)
Undercover (OP)
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April 23, 2013, 02:05:56 PM
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Everytime I think I understand Bitcoin, things get fuzzy.

First, Bitcoins are not unique items, you cannot identify one Bitcoin from another, in fact that statement almost makes no sense.  Bitcoins are values that are assigned to addresses.  The addresses are unique and each address has a currently Bitcoin value and transactions transfer values between addresses.

Secondly,  it seems the whole system works because all the participants agree to play by the same rules.  What prevents a rule change if everyone agrees to it.  Changing how many bitcoins are given to miners, how much the difficulty changes, etc.  they are arbitrary.  What if a majority agree to a rule change?

Lastly, I read about Bitcoin theft.  If I have a wallet of addresses that is backed up.  A virus penetrates the wallet and transfers all my Bitcoins to some other address.  Since I have the original addresses, I can see where they went.  If I clearly demonstrate the above to the Bitcoin community, what's preventing the Bitcoin community from disallowing any transactions from any address that received my stolen coins?  Yes it would be difficult to convince everyone but is it theoretically possible?
Undercover (OP)
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April 23, 2013, 04:41:04 PM
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Anyone care to chime in?
Murf
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April 23, 2013, 05:13:35 PM
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Everytime I think I understand Bitcoin, things get fuzzy.

First, Bitcoins are not unique items, you cannot identify one Bitcoin from another, in fact that statement almost makes no sense.  Bitcoins are values that are assigned to addresses.  The addresses are unique and each address has a currently Bitcoin value and transactions transfer values between addresses.

Secondly,  it seems the whole system works because all the participants agree to play by the same rules.  What prevents a rule change if everyone agrees to it.  Changing how many bitcoins are given to miners, how much the difficulty changes, etc.  they are arbitrary.  What if a majority agree to a rule change?

Lastly, I read about Bitcoin theft.  If I have a wallet of addresses that is backed up.  A virus penetrates the wallet and transfers all my Bitcoins to some other address.  Since I have the original addresses, I can see where they went.  If I clearly demonstrate the above to the Bitcoin community, what's preventing the Bitcoin community from disallowing any transactions from any address that received my stolen coins?  Yes it would be difficult to convince everyone but is it theoretically possible?
Bitcoins are the chain from generation to the current address. every step in that chain is signed by the sender. (your wallets private keys on the address where you recieved the coins) This transaction is kept on a distributed ledger (p2p bitcoind etc etc) In regards to the stolen the transaction is signed by you thus allowing for the transfer to happen. Yes it is possible to trace all the transactions. But any smart thief will mix the coins to get "new" coins aka not tainted by the theft quite quickly. It will also be impossible to stop a transaction from happening without breaking the rules.

For more info read up on
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_bitcoin_works
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2487.0

And please google there are more than a ton of informative articles out there.
please correct me if im wrong!

edit. Found some more info to read up on! (more links)
stiell
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April 23, 2013, 05:26:47 PM
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IMHO, the biggest opportunity for scamming is the large scale DDoS attacks on the exchanges we've been seeing lately. I believe these to be orchestrated events by organized groups with access to large resources and are using BTC as a pure speculative market. Think of organized crime and investment banks. They engage in the DDoS attacks in an effort to manipulate the market and get their orders executed. I would imagine the savvy algorithmic traders and hedge funds are engaged in these practices as well.

The way to stop it is for the BTC network to get even more distributed and even more liquid (needs to be used for more transactions and not simply as a store of fiat currency value, but a value store in and of itself)
Murf
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April 23, 2013, 05:32:08 PM
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IMHO, the biggest opportunity for scamming is the large scale DDoS attacks on the exchanges we've been seeing lately. I believe these to be orchestrated events by organized groups with access to large resources and are using BTC as a pure speculative market. Think of organized crime and investment banks. They engage in the DDoS attacks in an effort to manipulate the market and get their orders executed. I would imagine the savvy algorithmic traders and hedge funds are engaged in these practices as well.

The way to stop it is for the BTC network to get even more distributed and even more liquid (needs to be used for more transactions and not simply as a store of fiat currency value, but a value store in and of itself)
Agreed. These are not some random attacks they are trying to manipulate the value of bitcoin and it worked (for now). some seem to have dumped their bitcoins for record low amounts and then the value was reinflated.
Most actors (aka pool operators and exchanges) have taken measures to minimize the impact of future ddos.

What you as a private person need to do is to take as much care if not more as when doing online banking. If you have an account make sure it has a strong password. Encrypt you wallet.dat take backups (remember the wallet is your physical notes) Someone can easily break in to you unsecured computer.
DannyHamilton
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April 23, 2013, 08:55:01 PM
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First, Bitcoins are not unique items, you cannot identify one Bitcoin from another, in fact that statement almost makes no sense.  Bitcoins are values that are assigned to addresses.  The addresses are unique

So far your understanding seems reasonable.

and each address has a currently Bitcoin value and transactions transfer values between addresses.

If you are trying to understand the technical workings of Bitcoin, then you've run into a situation where you appear to be missing some details here.

Each address has a set of unspent outputs.  The total "value" that might be reported regarding that address woudl be the sum of all the unspent outputs.  Transactions spend outputs, as inputs, and assign value to new outputs.

Secondly,  it seems the whole system works because all the participants agree to play by the same rules.

Correct.

What prevents a rule change if everyone agrees to it.

Nothing.  The difficult part is getting everyone to agree to the change.

Changing how many bitcoins are given to miners, how much the difficulty changes, etc.  they are arbitrary.

There is some thought behind those design decisions, but yes, they are somewhat arbitrary.

What if a majority agree to a rule change?

Then the minority will continue to run software that enforces the old rule. Depending on the change, the blockchain will split, and there will be two different cryptocurrencies each trying to call themselves "Bitcoin" and each trying to convince people to accept their currency instead of the other.

Lastly, I read about Bitcoin theft.  If I have a wallet of addresses that is backed up.  A virus penetrates the wallet and transfers all my Bitcoins to some other address.  Since I have the original addresses, I can see where they went.  If I clearly demonstrate the above to the Bitcoin community, what's preventing the Bitcoin community from disallowing any transactions from any address that received my stolen coins?  Yes it would be difficult to convince everyone but is it theoretically possible?

Theoretically?  I suppose.  But since the bitcoins aren't distinct unique identifiable entities, the value associated will quickly be mixed with value that did not come from your wallet.  It will be sent to people who hadn't heard about the agreement not to accept the bitcoins. It will be moved through many addresses.  It would also create a situation where individuals could perpetrate fraud by making false claims about their bitcoins being stolen (when they were actually just spent).  To operate successfully as a currency, it has to be treated as completely fungible.
pb321go
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April 23, 2013, 09:07:45 PM
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I'm just getting started with Bitcoins (and maybe XRP/Ripples) and trying to learn the ropes. Apart from joining this forum, all I've done so far is open accounts with mtgox, btc-e and ripple. Isn't this the easiest way of doing things?
DannyHamilton
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April 23, 2013, 09:32:40 PM
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I'm just getting started with Bitcoins (and maybe XRP/Ripples) and trying to learn the ropes. Apart from joining this forum, all I've done so far is open accounts with mtgox, btc-e and ripple. Isn't this the easiest way of doing things?

That depends on where you are located, how much you intend to exchange, and how much technical skill you have.
Engelbert
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April 23, 2013, 09:52:58 PM
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I had some questions about m/hash,  and energy usage, ATi Radeon HD 5700, OS windows 7, and I'm clocking in at 130 m/hash. I thought maybe a downgrade to xp might help improve performance, or perhaps I just need a new graphics card,  if that's the case any suggestion for a low energy mining card? And what else can do to improve my m/hash rate  and what determines m/hash rates?
DannyHamilton
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April 23, 2013, 10:10:45 PM
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I had some questions about m/hash,  and energy usage, ATi Radeon HD 5700, OS windows 7, and I'm clocking in at 130 m/hash. I thought maybe a downgrade to xp might help improve performance, or perhaps I just need a new graphics card,  if that's the case any suggestion for a low energy mining card? And what else can do to improve my m/hash rate  and what determines m/hash rates?

5700?

Not familiar with that.  Any chance it might be a 5750 or a 5770?
Engelbert
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April 23, 2013, 10:31:24 PM
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Sorry my apologize I was referring to the 5770 model,
DannyHamilton
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April 23, 2013, 10:41:44 PM
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Sorry my apologize I was referring to the 5750 model.

I don't have much expertise in mining hardware.  I've posted a link to your question in the Mining Support sub-forum for you.  Hopefully someone will see it and stop by here to assist you.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=185837.0
Engelbert
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April 23, 2013, 10:46:47 PM
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Hopefully, well thanks anyway for the assistance.
revilo
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April 23, 2013, 10:55:15 PM
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Is there like a bitcoinpolice.com or something?
DannyHamilton
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April 23, 2013, 11:09:47 PM
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Is there like a bitcoinpolice.com or something?

Huh

I tried the link you posted.  It seems to be a jumbled mess of links related to bitcoin.  What are you asking about it?
volosator
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April 24, 2013, 01:45:36 AM
 #16

Is there like a bitcoinpolice.com or something?

bitcoin transactions are not reversible. if bitcoins leave your wallet - you can't do anything. if you get hacked - same thing. there is no police for bitcoins. encrypt your wallet and keep a backup of it Smiley
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