American-liberals, socialists and statists, what is your idea of liberty?

[david4dev]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe that because my family can't afford private education, I don't deserve to be educated?

[AyeYo]

I'm forced to pay taxes against my will. That's theft. You are receiving part of that stolen money and you encourage it to happen. You are having money stole from me and anyone else that pays taxes against their will.

And you weren't forced to pay against your will then YOU would stealing services and benefits from the rest of us that do pay taxes.  See how that works both ways?  You're free to leave any time.

[myrkul]

I'm forced to pay taxes against my will. That's theft. You are receiving part of that stolen money and you encourage it to happen. You are having money stole from me and anyone else that pays taxes against their will.

And you weren't forced to pay against your will then YOU would stealing services and benefits from the rest of us that do pay taxes.  See how that works both ways?  You're free to leave any time.

If the services weren't forced down our throats at the barrel of a gun, nobody would be stealing anything. See how that works?

[FredericBastiat]

Very well, you're not aiding and abetting.

You're also not personally stealing from me. (in fact, since I think you're in another country you're not stealing from me at all, but that's beside the point) What you are doing is delegating your desire to steal from me (figuratively speaking) to a group of people. So a better description of what is going on would be conspiracy.

Myrkul, to be perfectly accurate (assuming we're going to apply physics here), our statist friend hasn't actually stolen from anybody. The State thru some delegating body (taxing facility) has taken/stolen/coerced money from the many. These are the thieves we should pursue. He personally hasn't actually stolen anything (he applied no force to that effect) from anybody. However, he is in possession of stolen property, which if it could be determined (difficult if the state refuses to disclose who they stole it from), could then be returned to you (the taxed/plundered). Now, if he were to refuse to return the stolen property, he would then qualify as a thief and could be prosecuted forthwith.

If we stick to the physics, we can punish the right individuals. Unfortunately, the State protects it's own. To wit, they give special privilege and license to the few, to plunder the many. They have a license to steal, protected by a greater collective force than you personally can produce in self defense, hence you yield to the plunderer because you fear for your life (or you value it more than your stolen property). This is why Sweden wouldn't dare try to tax Americans (or the reverse) because we know our "State" would protect us from such a seige.

Unfortunately, many of us don't stand up to the State (local) and refuse to be robbed. Shame, apathy breeds the seeds of destruction.

[myrkul]

Very well, you're not aiding and abetting.

You're also not personally stealing from me. (in fact, since I think you're in another country you're not stealing from me at all, but that's beside the point) What you are doing is delegating your desire to steal from me (figuratively speaking) to a group of people. So a better description of what is going on would be conspiracy.

Myrkul, to be perfectly accurate (assuming we're going to apply physics here), our statist friend hasn't actually stolen from anybody. The State thru some delegating body (taxing facility) has taken/stolen/coerced money from the many. These are the thieves we should pursue. He personally hasn't actually stolen anything (he applied no force to that effect) from anybody. However, he is in possession of stolen property, which if it could be determined (difficult if the state refuses to disclose who they stole it from), could then be returned to you (the taxed/plundered). Now, if he were to refuse to return the stolen property, he would then qualify as a thief and could be prosecuted forthwith.

If we stick to the physics, we can punish the right individuals. Unfortunately, the State protects it's own. To wit, they give special privilege and license to the few, to plunder the many. They have a license to steal, protected by a greater collective force than you personally can produce in self defense, hence you yield to the plunderer because you fear for your life (or you value it more than your stolen property). This is why Sweden wouldn't dare try to tax Americans (or the reverse) because we know our "State" would protect us from such a seige.

Unfortunately, many of us don't stand up to the State (local) and refuse to be robbed. Shame, apathy breeds the seeds of destruction.

Well said, as always.

[NghtRppr]

And you weren't forced to pay against your will then YOU would stealing services and benefits from the rest of us that do pay taxes.

I have no problem paying for services that I agree to pay for and actually use. If I want cable service, I pay for it. You want to pretend that it's a package deal but it's not. I should be able to pay for military defense but not waging wars in other countries. I should be able to pay for roads that I actually use but not roads in other area codes. How exactly am I stealing by not paying for a road I never drive on?

[david4dev]

our statist friend

I am not a statist. I am a socialist libertarian.

[NghtRppr]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe that because my family can't afford private education, I don't deserve to be educated?

Deserve? No. You only deserve to be left alone. Other than that, you either need to earn it or depend on voluntary charity. However, educating young people does benefit me and as such, I would definitely donate to charity to support education. I resent being forced by threat of physical violence though. I resent not being able to pick which charities to donate to and what form my charity should take. I would rather donate tutoring services in math or computer science than money.

[david4dev]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe that because my family can't afford private education, I don't deserve to be educated?

Deserve? No. You only deserve to be left alone. Other than that, you either need to earn it or depend on voluntary charity. However, educating young people does benefit me and as such, I would definitely donate to charity to support education. I resent being forced by threat of physical violence though. I resent not being able to pick which charities to donate to and what form my charity should take. I would rather donate tutoring services in math or computer science rather than money.

So you don't believe I have the right to education?

[NghtRppr]

So you don't believe I have the right to education?

No, I don't believe in positive rights. I owe you inaction, not action. I owe it to you not to hurt you or your property physically. I don't owe you my labor or the fruits thereof. That's only something a slave owes its master.

[myrkul]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe that because my family can't afford private education, I don't deserve to be educated?

Deserve? No. You only deserve to be left alone. Other than that, you either need to earn it or depend on voluntary charity. However, educating young people does benefit me and as such, I would definitely donate to charity to support education. I resent being forced by threat of physical violence though. I resent not being able to pick which charities to donate to and what form my charity should take. I would rather donate tutoring services in math or computer science rather than money.

So you don't believe I have the right to education?

You don't have the right TO anything. You have the right NOT to be forced into one educational mold. You can educate yourself, or delegate that job to whomever you choose.

[david4dev]

Here is another point of disagreement. I believe in positive rights. I believe I have the right to education, healthcare and more.

[AyeYo]

I'm forced to pay taxes against my will. That's theft. You are receiving part of that stolen money and you encourage it to happen. You are having money stole from me and anyone else that pays taxes against their will.

And you weren't forced to pay against your will then YOU would stealing services and benefits from the rest of us that do pay taxes.  See how that works both ways?  You're free to leave any time.

If the services weren't forced down our throats at the barrel of a gun, nobody would be stealing anything. See how that works?

No I don't, because the services aren't forced on you.  You're free to leave at any time.

Since you choose to stay, you choose to reap the benefits and pay for those benefits.  This is all voluntary.  You can leave at any time.

[FredericBastiat]

our statist friend

I am not a statist. I am a socialist libertarian.

Golly, I guess I'd better be more selective with my verbiage. You may not be a statist, in fact, I really don't care what you label yourself. All I care about is whether or not what property you have, was actually acquired in a mutually consensual way. To be perfectly crystal clear, If what property you have acquired was not stolen or coerced from another man/woman, then I have no argument with you. If however, I make you aware that the property you have acquired (anywhere in the chain of custody) is of a questionable nature, as it were, obtained thru coersion or force, and you believe that that is okay, you would be gravely wrong.

Theft is theft is theft. Whether you give yourself some title of nobility, mantle of force, wear a costume indicating your prowess, what have you, it mattereth not. Governments are merely a coalition of like-minded associates who believe their solidarity is somehow superior to the rights of the common man. They are nothing more than a collective of superior forces acting as a unit. They have no greater right to steal from the many as the individual does another man. Duh comes to mind. It really is that simple.

Notwithstanding that, and the fact that it would be near impossible to determine whose property (ie. plundered thru the state) belonged to who (reasonably determinable), such that you couldn't return it to it's rightful owner, I suppose you could keep the plunder. Just remember, next time your government gives you a hand-out, it's likely to be ill-gotten goods. That ought to at least make you think twice about the justification of it all.

I personally think it's unfortunate that we participate in such activities, but what to do...?

[david4dev]

I'm forced to pay taxes against my will. That's theft. You are receiving part of that stolen money and you encourage it to happen. You are having money stole from me and anyone else that pays taxes against their will.

And you weren't forced to pay against your will then YOU would stealing services and benefits from the rest of us that do pay taxes.  See how that works both ways?  You're free to leave any time.

If the services weren't forced down our throats at the barrel of a gun, nobody would be stealing anything. See how that works?

No I don't, because the services aren't forced on you.  You're free to leave at any time.

Since you choose to stay, you choose to reap the benefits and pay for those benefits.  This is all voluntary.  You can leave at any time.

I'm sorry, but leave to where exactly? Just saying 'you could leave this society' is hardly respecting that person's liberty.

[myrkul]

I'm forced to pay taxes against my will. That's theft. You are receiving part of that stolen money and you encourage it to happen. You are having money stole from me and anyone else that pays taxes against their will.

And you weren't forced to pay against your will then YOU would stealing services and benefits from the rest of us that do pay taxes.  See how that works both ways?  You're free to leave any time.

If the services weren't forced down our throats at the barrel of a gun, nobody would be stealing anything. See how that works?

No I don't, because the services aren't forced on you.  You're free to leave at any time.

Since you choose to stay, you choose to reap the benefits and pay for those benefits.  This is all voluntary.  You can leave at any time.

I was born here. Those services were forced on me before I had the choice to leave or not. And there is no reason why I should choose to leave the voluntary services which I pay for simply to avoid the involuntary ones that I do not wish to pay for.

[NghtRppr]

Here is another point of disagreement. I believe in positive rights. I believe I have the right to education, healthcare and more.

I also think rights are timeless. Throughout the history of the humanity, one human always owed it to another human not to attack them or their property. However, to say that cavemen owed each other healthcare is absurd.

[david4dev]

Here is another point of disagreement. I believe in positive rights. I believe I have the right to education, healthcare and more.

I also think rights are timeless. Throughout the history of the humanity, one human always owed it to another human not to attack them or their property. However, to say that cavemen owed each other healthcare is absurd.

Well I believe rights apply to everyone alive now and in the future. There is no point worrying about people who lived in the past because they are dead now and there is nothing we can do to help them.

[NghtRppr]

No I don't, because the services aren't forced on you.

Cool story. Too bad history shows it's not true.

My family owned this land since before it was a state. So one day, my ancestor, a farmer, is on his land and a government agent shows up. The exchange went something like this.

Agent: Hey, there. We're starting a new state.
Farmer: That's great to hear! I'm a good neighbor and I look forward to trading with you. Good luck!
Agent: No, you don't understand. You're part of this state now and you have to pay taxes.
Farmer: What?! I didn't agree to this! This is armed robbery! You're no better than a thief!
Agent: Well, you can always move.
Farmer: Move?! I've owned this land for generations. Why should I move? This is my land.
Agent: Not anymore.

Right, so now I'm the thief? Because some farmer couldn't stand up to an entire army?

Like I said, cool story. Too bad it's not based in reality.

[AyeYo]

No I don't, because the services aren't forced on you.

Cool story. Too bad history shows it's not true.

My family owned this land since before it was a state.

And Native Americans owned that land before anyone in your family 20+ generations removed even knew it existed.  The only reason you own that land is because the US government says you own it.  In order to enjoy that and all the other benefits of this system, you pay taxes.  If you don't want the benefits, then you're free to leave and no one will force you to pay taxes anymore.