Clarification question, bitcoin network hashrate, comparison to supercomputers

[Rosa_Weinhold]

Hello everyone,

my name is Rosa, I'm studying International Business in Germany and am currently writing my Bachelor thesis 'The disruptive potential of Blockchain on economy'. I would like to ask a clarification question concerning the current computing power of the bitcoin network (resp. the network hashrate).
Please correct me if I'm wrong with the following:

1. The Bitcoin network hashrate is 45,988,115.27 petaflops ( http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/ ).
    45988115.27 petaflop = 45988.11527 exaflop ( http://endmemo.com/convert/computer%20speed_s.php )
2. The fastest super computer works with 93,014.6 petaflops ( https://www.top500.org/resources/top-systems/sunway-taihulight-national-supercomputing-center-i/ ) Cost for the system (excluding running costs: US-$ 270 million ) ( http://www.netlib.org/utk/people/JackDongarra/PAPERS/sunway-report-2016.pdf )
3. Hence: All nodes of the bitcoin network combined are 494 x more powerful than the super computer? ( 45,988,115.27/93,014.6=494.422)

It just seems to be so overwhelming that it makes me doubt my own calculations.

I'm not an expert on technical details (though I'm trying to become one;), so I would be really grateful for your feedback:)
Thank you for your time in advance. I appreciate your effort to help me .

Rosa

[FlamingFingers]

Actually your calculations are quite true. According to bitcoinwatch's 2013 report, the Bitcoin Network is more powerful than the world's top 500 supercomputers combined, and that's because Bitcoin is a massive computing network.

[Xester]

I do agree with that since even by using simple logic if you compute all of the bitcoin nodes when their numbers combined we can get a result much more powerful and stronger than the supercomputers. But if you increase the numbers of supercomputers or the CIA will launch their Quantum computers which is a thousand times more powerful than supercomputers then probably it will defeat all the combined nodes not only in number but in power.

[Rosa_Weinhold]

Dear Xester,
thank you for your inspiration with the CIA supercomputers, I have not thought of this massive computer power source. Maybe I'll be able to find some figures to compare. I appreciate your effort!


Dear FlamingFingers,
I totally agree with your2013 report, I just wanted to upgrade those old calculations to 2017. Thank you for your time! This helped me a lot.

[xhomerx10]

Hello everyone,

my name is Rosa, I'm studying International Business in Germany and am currently writing my Bachelor thesis 'The disruptive potential of Blockchain on economy'. I would like to ask a clarification question concerning the current computing power of the bitcoin network (resp. the network hashrate).
Please correct me if I'm wrong with the following:

1. The Bitcoin network hashrate is 45,988,115.27 petaflops ( http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/ ).
    45988115.27 petaflop = 45988.11527 exaflop ( http://endmemo.com/convert/computer%20speed_s.php )
2. The fastest super computer works with 93,014.6 petaflops ( https://www.top500.org/resources/top-systems/sunway-taihulight-national-supercomputing-center-i/ ) Cost for the system (excluding running costs: US-$ 270 million ) ( http://www.netlib.org/utk/people/JackDongarra/PAPERS/sunway-report-2016.pdf )
3. Hence: All nodes of the bitcoin network combined are 494 x more powerful than the super computer? ( 45,988,115.27/93,014.6=494.422)

It just seems to be so overwhelming that it makes me doubt my own calculations.

I'm not an expert on technical details (though I'm trying to become one;), so I would be really grateful for your feedback:)
Thank you for your time in advance. I appreciate your effort to help me .

Rosa

 A couple of points:

1) Nodes are not miners.  Miners do the hashing (ie most of the FLOPs)

 Your statement  "Hence: All the nodes of the Bitcoin..." is false.

2) Sunway is 93,014.6 TFlop/s not PFlops (this becomes 93.0146 PFlops)

3) Why are you converting PetaFlops to ExaFlops?!

4) 45,988,115.27 PFlops divided by 93.0146 PFlops =  494418.24477017586486422561619359

 So it would seem that All the Bitcoin miners combined have 494,418 x the power of the fastest supercomputer.
 
4b) Your number are now correct but keep in mind that the mining hardware on the Bitcoin network is specifically designed to do only one thing - the SHA256 hash function - using ASIC chips (Application Specific Integrated Circuit).  Your iPhone would be much more powerful than the Bitcoin network for finding the square root of 93,014.6... infinitely more powerful I bet!


 Hope that helps you to achieve technical prowess.

[Carlton Banks]

It's not an Apples to Apples comparison.


Supercomputer performance is measured in FLOPs, which is an abbreviation for floating point operations per second. But the Bitcoin mining rate is measured in hashes per second.


The Bitcoin hashing algorithm for calculating the next block header (which miners invoke to produce the overall network hashrate) is not a floating point operation, it is integer based arithmetic, not floating point arithmetic.


So to make a comparison, assumptions have to be made about equating 1 FLOP to 2 SHA-2 hashes (a single Bitcoin block header involves 2 SHA-2 hashes). The assumptions one makes alter the equation, so it's not really a true empirical measurement.

[odolvlobo]

1. The Bitcoin network hashrate is 45,988,115.27 petaflops...

Just reiterating what Carlton Banks wrote...

The Bitcoin network hash rate is not 45,988,115.27 petaflops. It is 3638726.32 terahashes/second. FLOPS (floating point operations per seconds) and hashes/second are different and are not directly comparable, especially since computing a hash involves no floating point operations.

[jonald_fyookball]

1. The Bitcoin network hashrate is 45,988,115.27 petaflops...

Just reiterating what Carlton Banks wrote...

The Bitcoin network hash rate is not 45,988,115.27 petaflops. It is 3638726.32 terahashes/second. FLOPS (floating point operations per seconds) and hashes/second are different and are not directly comparable, especially since computing a hash involves no floating point operations.

if i'm not mistaken, one 'hash' here means a complete blockheader (SHA-256) hash, which consists of 64 'turns' or 'rounds', each of which is made of about 2 dozen actual operations.

[d5000]

The Bitcoin network hash rate is not 45,988,115.27 petaflops. It is 3638726.32 terahashes/second. FLOPS (floating point operations per seconds) and hashes/second are different and are not directly comparable, especially since computing a hash involves no floating point operations.

At least at the Bitcoinwatch web site they already did the conversion THash/sec to PetaFLOPs.

I don't know if they did it correctly, but then you must blame the website admin, not the OP.
 

[European Central Bank]

isn't this kind of a pointless comparison? supercomputers can do anything they're tasked to do. an asic is a useless brick for anything other than calculating bitcoin. it's like comparing a sprinter to a marathon runner.

[Qartada]

The reason for that is because Bitcoin miners are hugely profit motivated.  We're talking about a Bitcoin being worth over $1000, and about 144 blocks with 12.5 Bitcoin plus transaction fees being mined every day we're talking about around two million dollars per day of profit motivation which can be spread out among thousands of people easily and dedicated to one simple purpose.  Supercomputers will never have to be as fast as the whole Bitcoin network - that would be insane.

[Carlton Banks]

1. The Bitcoin network hashrate is 45,988,115.27 petaflops...

Just reiterating what Carlton Banks wrote...

The Bitcoin network hash rate is not 45,988,115.27 petaflops. It is 3638726.32 terahashes/second. FLOPS (floating point operations per seconds) and hashes/second are different and are not directly comparable, especially since computing a hash involves no floating point operations.

if i'm not mistaken, one 'hash' here means a complete blockheader (SHA-256) hash, which consists of 64 'turns' or 'rounds', each of which is made of about 2 dozen actual operations.

In which case, you mean 128 rounds, not 64. Bitcoin SHA-2 ASICs perform x2 SHA-2 256 hashes for each block header calculation, not x1.

[Amph]

supercomputer can't mine bitcoin if that is the point of your post, they are far less efficient and slow compared to asic, also they would require huge resource just to mine few satoshi not worth it

basically right now bitcoin mining ecosystem is a whole giant supercomputer that do only one task, which is generate more bitcoin, not talking about node, which only support the network

maybe a better comparison could be made between a supercomputer and all the computer that run a full nodes

[AGD]

OP, why are you calling your thesis " 'The disruptive potential of Blockchain on economy'" instead of " 'The disruptive potential of Bitcoin on economy'?

[Rosa_Weinhold]

Hello everyone,

thank you for your time. I made notes to everything you said and try to make conclusions for my thesis.

To sum up what my intention is: I want to make a comparison (e.g. supercomputer, bitcoin mining network) to demonstrate the potential of Bitcoin/Blockchain.

I'm happy if anyone gives me information that I can use (and understand;) to make a persuasive analogy.
_______________________


Dear xhomerx10,

I appreciate your input:
1. True. I mixed up the network and the network of miners. Thank you for your feedback.
2. You're correct, Sunway is 93 Pflop/s.
3. Idk. Seems like this was pointless. Probably bc I'm not good in converting.
4. I would love to use this "494,418 x times the power" but as Carlton Banks stated, I can not make this comparison.
4b. Good point, I'll keep in mind the SHA256 hash.
Well, I'm happy if I'll manage to understand the very basic technical background:)
______________________

Dear Carlton Banks,

what you mentioned is an important reminder (although I can not really make sense out of it, due to my lack of understanding the difference of a floating point operation and an integer based arithmetic) How do I compare 1 Flop. Can you give me an idea of how those two can be compared to bring up a powerful conclusion? I want to make a statement pointing out how powerful the Bitcoin network is, in comparison to supercomputers.

If I understood your assumption to alter the equation correctly, then...

... 1.45,730,934 (Network hashrate in Petaflops) / 2 (bc a single block header involves 2 SHA-2 hashes) = 22,865,467 (headers).
2. 9.3e+16 /22,865,467 = 4,067,268,776 (what )

_________________________

Dear odolvlobo, dear jonald_fyookl,

I bet it's important what you mentioned. I can see that there must be a difference between petaflops and terahashes/second and 64 'turns' in one header. I can just not make sense out of it, I'm sorry, that I can not follow you.

___________________________


Dear European Central Bank,

thank you for your question. The comparison is not pointless. Let me explain to you why.
I bet to you and everyone familiar with encryption, computing language and technical knowledge (I guess most of you guys), the comparison is useless, because you know the details and program and do things I have no clue about ( I'm bad in maths, but ok in macroeconomics)

But there are many people out there that should understand what Bitcoin/Blockchain is about. They should be able to feel the impact the open ledger can have, not just for finance but so many other industries that we can't even imagine now. I need the comparison between the supercomputers and the bitcoin network to delight the minds of non-experts. And even we can, to some point, imagine if a US-$ 270 million supercomputer loses against Bitcoin, that must be wicked stuff. I'm writing this thesis to give economists some fundamental information about Blockchain.

With your name (eCENTRALb, an institution that's not amused about a peer-to-peer network invented to substitute them) you should see where I'm going.

_______________

Dear Qartada,

thank you for your contribution. Mining itself is interesting, unfortunately, I can not focus on all the different points of interest of Bitcoin.

_____________________

Dear Amph,

I understand your point of view. The bitcoin mining ecosystem is a whole giant supercomputer. This is, why I was trying to make a comparison in the first place.

I agree, that a comparison with all the full nodes would work too. I'm not sure whether I'll find figures for all full nodes combined though.

______________________

Dear AGD,

The title of the thesis is focusing on Blockchain technology instead of bitcoin because I want to show the impact for economy with all the industries and not just finance. Finance is, by now, the most discussed industry which will be impacted by Bitcoin (or already is). I admire Nakamoto for having this outstanding, positive change idea of a public ledger. The idea behind bitcoin is what I'm concentrating on.

[Dorky]

Humans prefer to waste resources for pursue of money than pursue to end sufferings.

[Haladay]

@Rosa_Weinhold This is such an interesting bachelor thesis in the field of international business, Rosa. We learnt lots of things due to your topic. Good luck with this.

As a guy said above, bitcoin or altcoin miners cannot do any task given. They're only programmed to make coin realted calculations. Yet a supercomputer can do anyhing (task) given.

[naughty1]

Your thesis is very good, it contains all the necessary information and accuracy. I see the investment of your time, you have thoroughly explored the information about it, so, you have a complete project. If I'm the one who reviews and censors for your scheme, I'll give you a good result, which is perfectly worth it for you. I do not see any mistakes. Wish you have a good result with it.

[jonald_fyookball]

go search wiki on SHA-256 hash

[AGD]

Hello everyone,

thank you for your time. I made notes to everything you said and try to make conclusions for my thesis.

To sum up what my intention is: I want to make a comparison (e.g. supercomputer, bitcoin mining network) to demonstrate the potential of Bitcoin/Blockchain.

I'm happy if anyone gives me information that I can use (and understand;) to make a persuasive analogy.
_______________________


Dear xhomerx10,

I appreciate your input:
1. True. I mixed up the network and the network of miners. Thank you for your feedback.
2. You're correct, Sunway is 93 Pflop/s.
3. Idk. Seems like this was pointless. Probably bc I'm not good in converting.
4. I would love to use this "494,418 x times the power" but as Carlton Banks stated, I can not make this comparison.
4b. Good point, I'll keep in mind the SHA256 hash.
Well, I'm happy if I'll manage to understand the very basic technical background:)

...

Dear AGD,

The title of the thesis is focusing on Blockchain technology instead of bitcoin because I want to show the impact for economy with all the industries and not just finance. Finance is, by now, the most discussed industry which will be impacted by Bitcoin (or already is). I admire Nakamoto for having this outstanding, positive change idea of a public ledger. The idea behind bitcoin is what I'm concentrating on.

Dear Rosa.
"Blockchain Technology" is just one fragment of the "Bitcoin Technology", where "Blockchain" is mostly refering to the decentralized open ledger system of Bitcoin. The industry has no interest to let everybody else know, what is written in "their" Blockchain. I.E. a bank would have no interest to establish an open decentralized ledger for obvious reasons. A regular company wouldn't release customer data in an open blockchain for the same obious reasons.
Now in the end, when most people (esp. bankers) refer to "Blockchain technology" instead of saying "Bitcoin", they do it because they can't control Bitcoin and they would like to do the same as Bitcoin, but NOT decentralized and NOT open source, which makes no sense. Bitcoin works because it is open source, decentralized, (pseudo-)anonymous and doesn't need a third party, like a bank for a transaction.

edit: I forgot the most important factor for the early rise of Bitcoin: Bitcoin in the early days made people earn money just by running a miner on a PC.