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Author Topic: ELI5 UASF and explain what if ...  (Read 619 times)
me in here (OP)
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April 13, 2017, 04:08:29 PM
 #1

i keep hearing this UASF thing these days so what is it

will it need the 95% of nodes (Users) to signal it? or is it different?

and what if these users don't reach majority who are activating it. what then?
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April 13, 2017, 04:25:44 PM
 #2

will it need the 95% of nodes (Users) to signal it? or is it different?
No. It does not rely on the node count (although it can be a nice metric for nodes that we know are 'old' and legit). If it did, it could be easily attacked via Sybil attacks.

and what if these users don't reach majority who are activating it. what then?
It primarily depends on the supermajority adoption by the economy and the supermajority of users desiring this proposal. If this does not happen, then the BIP just doesn't activate. Another UASF BIP can be prepared for 2018 which would enable more time to coordinate the update.

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April 13, 2017, 04:36:01 PM
 #3

thanks for the answer, you forgot to ELI5 UASF, i have read it but have trouble getting it really Smiley

- if it doesn't rely on node count and/or majority how is it not going to end badly, for example with a split or DDOS attakcs.

- who exactly is "supermajority"
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April 13, 2017, 04:39:56 PM
Last edit: April 14, 2017, 10:11:46 AM by Ayers
 #4

i could be wrong, but isn't UASF a way to force miners to adopt segwit? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-latest-scaling-twist-support-building-uasf/

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April 13, 2017, 04:43:43 PM
 #5

thanks for the answer, you forgot to ELI5 UASF, i have read it but have trouble getting it really Smiley
This website does a pretty good job at explaining it: http://www.uasf.co/

- if it doesn't rely on node count and/or majority how is it not going to end badly, for example with a split or DDOS attakcs.
In the worst case scenario it will cause a split, yes. However, the way the idea behind UASF works is that with almost the whole economy behind it, even the most stubborn miners would have no choice but to follow. If they don't, they'd be mining on a worthless chain (regardless whether they have majority hashrate power or not).

- who exactly is "supermajority"
That's not an entity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermajority

i could be wrong, but isn't UASF a way for dev core to force miners to adopt segwit? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-latest-scaling-twist-support-building-uasf/
The Bitcoin Core developers have nothing to do with UASF, nor is UASF/BIP148 part of Bitcoin Core. Don't spread false information.

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April 13, 2017, 05:06:47 PM
 #6

thanks for the link Lauda

more question
maybe my english is bad but i still dont get what "economic majority" that the link also repeats is.
i think the correct question would be "what does economic majority consists of?"

Quote
BIP148 requires support from the economic majority, particularly exchanges and wallets.
exchanges will support both or all possible outcomes, they do not care. they actually will be happy if there is a split because there will be 2 high volume coins to list and take fees from trading of them, we saw how they listed BU or am i missing something here?!

wallets will also support both and all possible outcomes, they have many users who will demand different things (right or wrong)
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April 13, 2017, 05:40:34 PM
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thanks for the link Lauda

more question
maybe my english is bad but i still dont get what "economic majority" that the link also repeats is.
i think the correct question would be "what does economic majority consists of?"

Quote
BIP148 requires support from the economic majority, particularly exchanges and wallets.
exchanges will support both or all possible outcomes, they do not care. they actually will be happy if there is a split because there will be 2 high volume coins to list and take fees from trading of them, we saw how they listed BU or am i missing something here?!

wallets will also support both and all possible outcomes, they have many users who will demand different things (right or wrong)

Exchanges, wallet developers, services, nodes... the sum of it all is what i understand as economic majority.

So if you have all of those wanting to UASF segwit and 2 miners wanting to block it, its pretty stupid.
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April 14, 2017, 05:58:45 AM
 #8

i could be wrong, but isn't UASF a way for dev core to force miners to adopt segwit? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-latest-scaling-twist-support-building-uasf/
The Bitcoin Core developers have nothing to do with UASF, nor is UASF/BIP148 part of Bitcoin Core. Don't spread false information.

sorry but where you see that i have mentioned bitcoin core? i just said that it's a way to force miners accepting segwit, the coindesk article isn't talking about core being behind UASF

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April 14, 2017, 06:16:06 AM
 #9

i keep hearing this UASF thing these days so what is it

will it need the 95% of nodes (Users) to signal it? or is it different?

and what if these users don't reach majority who are activating it. what then?

UASF is not talking about nodes nor it will talk about the miners. Rather UASF is a movement from miners to the users like the individual users, merchants, Exchanges, wallet providers and etc. This time around it will be the users who will dictate what kind of soft fork they need and thus this will mean that the miners will be forced but to follow the requirement or request of UASF otherwise their bitcoin will not be acepted and will be deemd worthless.
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April 14, 2017, 07:18:04 AM
 #10

Exchanges, wallet developers, services, nodes... the sum of it all is what i understand as economic majority.

So if you have all of those wanting to UASF segwit and 2 miners wanting to block it, its pretty stupid.
Correct. UASF only works if there is very broad support for it. Segwit is pretty much solely blocked by Jihan (and don't get fooled by those that tell you that Antpool is his only pool Roll Eyes ).

sorry but where you see that i have mentioned bitcoin core? i just said that it's a way to force miners accepting segwit, the coindesk article isn't talking about core being behind UASF
You have said 'for dev core' which implies Bitcoin Core to anyone who reads your post. Don't back out of false statements now; just admit to being wrong and fix your post.

This time around it will be the users who will dictate what kind of soft fork they need and thus this will mean that the miners will be forced but to follow the requirement or request of UASF otherwise their bitcoin will not be acepted and will be deemd worthless.
It's not exactly "dictating" else you could force adoption with certainty. It is more of an attempt by the users to acquire consensus for a soft fork, therefore also an attempt to activate it.

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April 14, 2017, 11:30:46 AM
Last edit: April 14, 2017, 11:40:49 AM by franky1
 #11

UASF is about NODES
and yes them nodes users need to upgrade yet again by august (that makes 4 downloads just to try different things related to segwit activation(facepalm), before even getting to the real segwit keypair wallet download which is the real 'feature' gesture(wont be available until weeks after activation))
Quote
A UASF forgoes the need for miner signalling because economic nodes are given more time to upgrade to the new rules and begin enforcing in the future.

UASF (bip 148) is CODE so it IS about nodes. not some website that people socially say yes to.

but right now because UASF is not ready, the only way to show support is by 'social flagging' (old nodes displaying a comment in their useragent)
(sybil attack risk) and lame websites where 'consultants' that dont even need to run nodes can sign many times as different subsidiary of their consultant business (for instance: bitcoin embassy, satoshiportal, bylls are one business with multiple subsidiaries pretending to sign independently to gain support count 'socially')

although the CODE is not ready. blockstream/core/uasf are telling people to change their useragent comments to flag for it if they want it
Quote
Successful User Activated Soft Forks require a strong consensus from the economy to be successful. BIP148 also is subject to changes as it is reviewed, so some minor details may change before it is ready. Until there is sufficient consensus, it is not advised to use any binaries that implement BIP148. However, the BIP148 reference can be applied for testing and review purposes. If you want to signal support, change your user agent comment to be “UASF-SegWit-BIP148”, along with communicating with other Bitcoin users that you support BIP148.

again proof that it is about code and nodes (software) (that is not ready yet)
Quote
Can BIP148 be cancelled?
Yes. In the event that the economic majority does not support BIP148, users should remove software that enforces BIP148.




and now for the technicals.
UASF requires 85% hashpower by august to be sustained where by if still at 85% near the end they will start orphaning off nay-sayers/abstainer pools blocks to then (trick) the block count into thinking there are less nay-sayers/abstainers(this 85% may change before the CODE for UASF is publicly available)



remember you cannot reject a block in the network by just having a signed message on some polling website. so it IS about nodes that have code that does the rejecting (not available yet).
Quote
Soft forks rely on the economic incentives of the majority of miners and economic actors to reject invalid blocks based on the new ruleset. Since the new BIP148 rules are a stricter set than the old rules, any chain split means the chain with the old rules would be in danger of being wiped out. If the majority of miners enforce the new ruleset, all blocks produced that are invalid in the new ruleset will become orphaned.



and yes, by rejecting blocks. its not about pools doing funky things like throwing random data.. its simple (word twisted) that if your pool is one of the 15% nay sayer where the block actually contains valid transactions and the blockreward follows the current 12.5btc amount.. but is not wearing the segwit sponsored version bit.. its biasedly orphaned and treated as a naughty boy and thrown aside.
this will cause chain splits. again not based on bad data but based on rejecting blocks purely because they are not kissing segwit ass.
(thats the funny part 'segwit is backward compatible' but try making a normal old block and get orphaned)


TL:DR;
UASF
actually means hard consensus(if you untwist the blockstream shep stroke to sleep 'soft' wordplay games) with 5-15% block rejection/split of network if it gets to a sustained (currently proposed 85%) minimum in august-november



the real funny part is.
blockstream believed that a november 2016 rule change could have been active within a month via only pools
blockstream believe that august rule change could be active by november via a node+pools

so if we actually, back in late 2015 done a proper node and pool (hard)consensus of a 1 merkle upgrade for the entire network with a 4mb baseblock(no weight) where that 4mb was dynamic after that.. we would already have had a united community where everyone gets what they want.
+ real blocksize growth even for native keypair users (because 1mb baseblock no longer existing)
+ those that want to use segwit keypair can
+ all nodes on same peer network fully validating old and new keypairs equally (no TIER upstream filter/stripping block nodes)
+ and hopefully other common sense changes like a lowered txsigops limit of say 2000, that does NOT increase even if the blocksize increased to truly mitigate quadratics.
- (though native key users can still malleate(which is still possible even in soft segwit))

all without wasting 2 years and 4-5 downloads in that timespan



even funnier. even if segwit still gets rejected for the half gesture it is.. they wont just accept it as a no, and then ask the community what would work best to get a nited community.. they will just try again and delay things for another year with segwit in its current form but with yet another deadline
Quote
Can BIP148 be cancelled?
Yes. In the event that the economic majority does not support BIP148, users should remove software that enforces BIP148. A flag day activation for SegWit would be the next logical steps and require coordination of the community, most likely towards the end of 2018.

so if the community say no this year(for good reason) dont expect any new/alternative community uniting re-code from blockstream devs before 2019. they will just re-push the half baked segwit as-is today with a new deadline and new buzzword play to stroke ego's to sleep

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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