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Author Topic: Ebay/paypal scam  (Read 12391 times)
TheJamesFund
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August 14, 2013, 08:34:07 PM
 #21

Paypal has no right to withdraw out of the bank account after the deposit is made, especially after 10 days.
Yes, they do. I even explained why in the post you are responding to.

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Anyways, I was awarded damages and collection cost. In my situation, there was no charge backs. Paypal withdrew money out of my account to hold funds and not because of charge backs.
Whether or not there was a charge back has nothing to do with anything.

Fundamentally, Paypal is a reversible payment service. They deliver funds from one person to another, so long as the sender actually wants to send those funds. If the buyer doesn't want to pay the seller or the sale violates Paypal's terms, Paypal reserves the right to disintermediate themselves, leaving the buyer and seller to resolve their dispute.

In your case, Paypal decided to disintermediate themselves. This just means they refused to handle the payment. The buyer still owes you the money and can still pay you if they want to. It's not Paypal's job to make someone pay you if they don't want to pay you. And it should be 100% clear to everyone that Paypal does not ever confirm a payment is irreversibly made.

As has been explained on this forum and many others, this makes Paypal unsuitable for selling Bitcoins to people you don't trust because the Bitcoin payment is irreversible and the Paypal payment isn't. You chose to rely on the honesty of the buyer. If the buyer is dishonest, then you're screwed, and that's not Paypal's fault. If the buyer is honest, they should have paid you once they got their money back from Paypal.


I Think you missed what I was saying. IN MY SITUATION....

1. The buyer did not do a charge back. <= buyer did not charge back nor did received funds back. Paypal held funds from me and reversed the BANK deposit that was completed quoting possible fraud.
2. I was AWARDED damages in District Court. = I sued I won

A District Judge made a decision thus your argument is invalid.
Also the rules of no e-currency and paypal was changed recently in 2013.


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JoelKatz
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August 14, 2013, 09:49:28 PM
 #22

I Think you missed what I was saying. IN MY SITUATION....
No, I got you.

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1. The buyer did not do a charge back. <= buyer did not charge back nor did received funds back. Paypal held funds from me and reversed the BANK deposit that was completed quoting possible fraud.
Right. PayPal decided to disintermediate itself, that is, it removed itself from the payment between you and the buyer. I'm assuming PayPal returned the funds to the buyer, and the buyer should have paid them to you. PayPal makes it very clear that their deposits are reversible and will be reversed if payments violate their ToS or if the buyer no longer wishes to make the payment.

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2. I was AWARDED damages in District Court. = I sued I won

A District Judge made a decision thus your argument is invalid.
Also the rules of no e-currency and paypal was changed recently in 2013.
Not knowing what evidence you presented in court or what arguments PayPal made, I can't tell whether the judge's ruling is correct or not. But just from what you said, PayPal didn't do anything wrong.

Again, I very much dislike PayPal. They massively screwed me over. I'd be the first to agree if they did anything wrong. But PayPal makes reversible payments, period. And PayPal reserves the right to remove themselves from a transaction they don't wish to be part of.

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murraypaul
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August 14, 2013, 10:06:19 PM
 #23

Paypal has no right to withdraw out of the bank account after the deposit is made, especially after 10 days.

Paypal User Agreement, section 10.2.d:
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We may reverse a payment (including, if appropriate, to the sender’s Funding Source), that violates our Acceptable Use Policy or section 9, or which we reasonably suspect of violating our Acceptable Use Policy or section 9;

You agreed to it, whether you read it first or not.

And selling Bitcoins would probably be taken to fall under either: (Paypal Acceptable Use Policy)

Quote
relate to transactions that (a) show the personal information of third parties in violation of applicable law, (b) support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other "get rich quick" schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs, (c) are associated with purchases of annuities or lottery contracts, lay-away systems, off-shore banking or transactions to finance or refinance debts funded by a credit card, (d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item, (e) are by payment processors to collect payments on behalf of merchants, (f) are associated with the sale of traveler’s cheques or money orders, (h) involve currency exchanges or cheque cashing businesses, or (i) involve certain credit repair, debt settlement services, credit transactions or insurance activities.

or

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Airlines and scheduled or non-scheduled charters/jets/air taxi operators; collecting donations as a charity or non-profit organization; dealing in jewels, precious metals and stones; acting as a money transmitter or selling stored value cards; selling stocks, bonds, securities, options, futures (forex) or an investment interest in any entity or property; or providing escrow services.

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August 15, 2013, 08:45:30 AM
 #24

It happened to me, too. Paypal & eBay scammed us. I sold bitcoins, I got positive feedback by buyer. Everything was looking normal. After 2 weeks I see the dispute. I sent all the proofs but they didn't do anything. Where's the seller protection?
Just stay away from those scammers.
murraypaul
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August 15, 2013, 11:13:24 AM
 #25

It happened to me, too. Paypal & eBay scammed us. I sold bitcoins, I got positive feedback by buyer. Everything was looking normal. After 2 weeks I see the dispute. I sent all the proofs but they didn't do anything. Where's the seller protection?
Just stay away from those scammers.

Paypal do not want your business.
They do not allow sales of Bitcoin.
If you ignore them, they will reverse the transaction and leave you and the buyer to sort it out.

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JoelKatz
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August 15, 2013, 06:17:21 PM
 #26

It happened to me, too. Paypal & eBay scammed us. I sold bitcoins, I got positive feedback by buyer. Everything was looking normal. After 2 weeks I see the dispute. I sent all the proofs but they didn't do anything. Where's the seller protection?
Just stay away from those scammers.
PayPal is quite clear that there's no seller protection from sales of digital goods or direct payments. In your case, the buyer still owes you the money and, assuming they still want to pay you, they should pay you. PayPal can't force an unwilling buyer to pay you money. PayPal makes reversible payments, period. The buyer pays you so long as the buyer wants to pay you.

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August 15, 2013, 10:40:43 PM
 #27

It happened to me, too. Paypal & eBay scammed us. I sold bitcoins, I got positive feedback by buyer. Everything was looking normal. After 2 weeks I see the dispute. I sent all the proofs but they didn't do anything. Where's the seller protection?
Just stay away from those scammers.
PayPal is quite clear that there's no seller protection from sales of digital goods or direct payments. In your case, the buyer still owes you the money and, assuming they still want to pay you, they should pay you. PayPal can't force an unwilling buyer to pay you money. PayPal makes reversible payments, period. The buyer pays you so long as the buyer wants to pay you.

So, I can do the same thing to other Bitcoin sellers in eBay, right? Because they don't protect sellers, they protect only buyers. I can buy all bitcoins in eBay and I open disputes to all of them. And that doesn't make me a scammer, right? I like your style of thought.
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August 15, 2013, 11:52:18 PM
 #28

So, I can do the same thing to other Bitcoin sellers in eBay, right? Because they don't protect sellers, they protect only buyers. I can buy all bitcoins in eBay and I open disputes to all of them. And that doesn't make me a scammer, right? I like your style of thought.
That makes you a scammer, not PayPal. If you agree to pay for something and receive that something, you have to pay for it. If not, you're a scammer.

In your case, the buyer still owes you the money they agreed to pay you, since they didn't pay it to you. If they're honest, they should still pay you. If they're dishonest, then they scammed you. PayPal and eBay don't provide seller protection for digital goods, you have to sue the buyer.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
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August 16, 2013, 10:56:23 AM
 #29

That makes you a scammer, not PayPal. If you agree to pay for something and receive that something, you have to pay for it. If not, you're a scammer.

In your case, the buyer still owes you the money they agreed to pay you, since they didn't pay it to you. If they're honest, they should still pay you. If they're dishonest, then they scammed you. PayPal and eBay don't provide seller protection for digital goods, you have to sue the buyer.

Then I'll tell judge what Bitcoin is on the court. Seriously, only 200-250 people know Bitcoin thing in Turkey. Smiley
That's obvious you don't know anything about Turkish law system, too.
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August 16, 2013, 05:15:51 PM
 #30

Then I'll tell judge what Bitcoin is on the court. Seriously, only 200-250 people know Bitcoin thing in Turkey. Smiley
That's obvious you don't know anything about Turkish law system, too.
That's not PayPal's fault. It's not their job to force someone to pay you if they don't want to. It's their job to make a payment from a willing sender. They also provide seller protection, but not for digital goods.

I am an employee of Ripple. Follow me on Twitter @JoelKatz
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stex2009
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August 16, 2013, 07:53:50 PM
 #31

What's the best method to win a case like this?
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August 16, 2013, 09:35:53 PM
 #32

What's the best method to win a case like this?
Sue the buyer.

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Bitmin1991
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September 19, 2013, 09:10:47 PM
 #33

Selling BTC on Ebay, totally against Ebay rules AND paypal policies is pretty dumb.

LOL Then why does eBay has a category SPECIFICALLY for Virtual Currency?

Category: "Coins & Paper Money >> Virtual Currency" On the "enter item details" page, there is a selection box labeled "Type" and you can select Bitcoin, Litecoin, Feathercoin, etc.



Sorry for bumping a old thread.
Blisk
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April 14, 2014, 06:24:50 AM
 #34

Selling BTC on Ebay, totally against Ebay rules AND paypal policies is pretty dumb.

LOL Then why does eBay has a category SPECIFICALLY for Virtual Currency?

Category: "Coins & Paper Money >> Virtual Currency" On the "enter item details" page, there is a selection box labeled "Type" and you can select Bitcoin, Litecoin, Feathercoin, etc.



Sorry for bumping a old thread.
They have it now, but didn't have it before.

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April 14, 2014, 09:54:47 PM
 #35

They made Ebay like ass...piss whatever...it is not just the same   Cry Embarrassed
Ebay does not work for europeand nowadays this is the true. Where i live ( Bulgaria) i can deliver you almost everything from China with escrow for almost no fee, here we have a strong china community and they are delivering staight from china with ships via Black Sea so if anybody interested in china stock can PM me .

BR,

Gondel
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April 18, 2014, 10:43:02 PM
 #36

I was thinking about something else

What if we sold paper wallets containing 1BTC on eBay?

we shipp it with tracking and everything

could paypal put a halt on it then?

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April 19, 2014, 05:00:40 AM
 #37

I was thinking about something else

What if we sold paper wallets containing 1BTC on eBay?

we shipp it with tracking and everything

could paypal put a halt on it then?

They can and arbitrarily do anything they want, refunding the buyer, locking your Paypal account and funds, cancelling your other listings, invalidating past listings and scraping back those funds also, clawing back money out of your linked accounts, sending you to collections. Even with a signed delivery confirmation, a buyer that "disputes" only needs to return your (emptied) piece of paper with tracking to automatically win a dispute.
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April 21, 2014, 07:27:50 AM
 #38

Are u dumb?

What BTC needs is pioneers that are willing to take risks and establish more markets for BTC, not negativity

I have had two BTC transactions with Paypal reversed by the buyers CC.  I  then submitted my evidence and Paypal  has sided with me and is disputing the reversal with the CC companies, time will tell if I receive my money.

But the more that this happens the more that Paypal and other online merchants are going to realize that BTC is here to stay and they need to make adjustments.

how am i dumb?

I just sent her one more email before I'm ready to message (not harass anyone) all her friends/family I just want to explain my story to them I hope it really comes back and bites her in the ass

Heres the last email I'm sending:
Hello,
Paypal has refunded you the $1200 for the bitcoins that I sent you will you please refund me. It really sucks being scammed. Please be a good person and send back my money or bitcoins. Good karma will come and vice-revisa. Please don't let this scam happen. It is really bad feeling to be scammed and I wish it upon no one.
Thank you,
-Michael


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May 14, 2014, 11:55:46 AM
 #39

this is the reason why i dont use e money wallets or e currency there is always a risk from the other side , as you dont know when is someone you deal with is gonna reverse the payment leaving you with nothing ,, so its better to deal face to face ,

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June 08, 2014, 12:35:22 AM
 #40

I have seen many forum posts with this type of scam. It was apparently quite common around a year ago until the BTC community caught on to what was happening.

Even though paypal reversed the transaction you still have the possibility of getting your money back. 

Since you have her name and address you could possibly sue her in small claims court to get your money back.

I would not recommend contacting her Facebook friends/family as you do not know for sure that it was her (could have stolen her identity and/or used a hacked account) and you could possibly be committing libel against her.
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