Ebay/paypal scam

[ooeygooeygold]

So a little over a month ago I was selling bitcoins on ebay and having a positive experience. Well that ended quickly as for reasons most of you already know about dealing with paypal and ebay. Well I have sold about 20-30 bitcoins on ebay  only till i started dealing with 5 bitcoins or more is when paypal stopped me. Pretty much saying to themselves wow this guy is making good money lets freeze it. So finally my time came and someone bought 3 bitcoins for $300 each (when bitcoins were over 200) and this women paid me and I paid her. We both left positive feedback and paypal froze the funds claiming fraud. The women had over 100 feedback and was a regular ebayer the last time she purchased something was less then a week before. I emailed her asking what was going on and if she could email paypal for me. She posted her blockchain address in paypal and I sent them screenshots of my blockchain transaction log and her leaving me positive feedback. Today paypal sent me an email saying they sent her the funds back. Well.....now what to do? I found her on facebook by matching the name and address. I'm thinking about sending all her friends and family about the scam she pulled on me with screenshoots. Does anyone have any better ideas for me?

[laughingbear]

If only someone could have warned you this might happen

[Kluge]

This has happened so many times, I'm really shocked it's still happening. You shouldn't be using Paypal for Bitcoins - ever.

Paypal is not to be used for digital goods -- their de jure rules, our de facto rules. She may not have even claimed fraud, but Paypal may have reversed the transaction because you broke their rules (probably eBay's, too) and don't consider the transaction valid.

What was in the email Paypal sent you?

[ooeygooeygold]

This has happened so many times, I'm really shocked it's still happening. You shouldn't be using Paypal for Bitcoins - ever.

Paypal is not to be used for digital goods -- their de jure rules, our de facto rules. She may not have even claimed fraud, but Paypal may have reversed the transaction because you broke their rules (probably eBay's, too) and don't consider the transaction valid.

What was in the email Paypal sent you?

We've concluded our investigation into the transaction detailed below.

We've returned the funds to the PayPal account holder, and your account
will be debited for the amount of this transaction.

-----------------------------------
Helping ensure safe transactions
-----------------------------------

Most of the payments you receive will be from, honest buyers. PayPal wants
to help ensure that your transactions are as safe as possible.

You can often reduce your risk by paying close attention to payment details
and unusual requests.

* Watch for address inconsistencies:
It's fairly common for a buyer's shipping address to be different from the
billing address. In some cases, though, it could indicate fraud. For
instance, a high-priced item that has a billing address in one country and
a shipping address in another may be suspicious.

* Beware of unusual requests that could indicate suspicious activity, such
as:
- Buyers who want rush shipment at any cost
- Buyers who send partial payments from different PayPal accounts
- Do not make payment in full

Go to the PayPal Security Center for more information.

-----------------------------------
Transaction Details
-----------------------------------


Buyer's name: Nancy
Buyer's email:
Transaction ID: 6K514636AU187815V

Transaction date: Apr 13, 2013
Transaction amount: $900.00 USD
Your transaction ID: 0YR94201AB405643K
Case number: PP-002-300-495-696


Thanks,

PayPal

Please do not reply to this email. This mailbox is not monitored and you
will not receive a response. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account
and click the Help link in the top right corner of any PayPal page.

[Kluge]

This has happened so many times, I'm really shocked it's still happening. You shouldn't be using Paypal for Bitcoins - ever.

Paypal is not to be used for digital goods -- their de jure rules, our de facto rules. She may not have even claimed fraud, but Paypal may have reversed the transaction because you broke their rules (probably eBay's, too) and don't consider the transaction valid.

What was in the email Paypal sent you?

We've concluded our investigation into the transaction detailed below.
*snip*

What did they send before that? Generally, they'll have someone personally oversee cases and give you updates.

[ooeygooeygold]

Dear Michael,

You have received a payment that we believe may not have been authorized by
the PayPal account holder.  Here are the details of the transaction we are
investigating:

-----------------------------------
Transaction Details
-----------------------------------


Buyer's name: Nancy
Buyer's email:
Transaction ID: 6K514636AU187815V

Transaction date: Apr 13, 2013
Transaction amount: $900.00 USD
Your transaction ID: 0YR94201AB405643K
Case number: PP-002-300-495-696

We recommend that you don’t ship the item until our investigation is
complete.  If you’ve already shipped the item, please log in to your PayPal
account and go to the Resolution Center to provide the shipping details.

In order to continue our investigation, we need some additional information
from you.

Here’s how to provide us the information we need:

1.  Log in to your PayPal account.
2.  Click “Resolution Center” near the top of the page.
3.  Click "Resolve" in the Action column to view the information we need.
4.  You can either fax or upload your documents to us.

You can fax your documents to us at: 402-537-5760

Please include a fax cover sheet that includes the email address registered
on your PayPal account and your case ID number.

Here’s how to upload your documents:

1.  Log in to your PayPal account.
2.  Click “Resolution Center” near the top of the page.
3.  Find your case under "Resolution Center cases," then click "Resolve"
next to the request for documentation. 
4.  Click “Upload Files.”
5.  Click “Browse” to find the file you want to send, and then click
“Open.”
6.  Enter a title for the file.
7.  Select the type of evidence, and then click “Attach This File.”
8.  Attach any other files, and then click “Send Files to PayPal.”

Please provide this information within 7 days.

This payment will remain on hold and unavailable to you until we complete
our investigation. We will email you when we complete our investigation.

Sincerely,
PayPal

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Help Center:
https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/helpweb?cmd=_help
Security Center:
https://www.paypal.com/us/security

This email was sent by an automated system, so if you reply, nobody will
see it. To get in touch with us, log in to your account and click "Contact
Us" at the bottom of any page.

Copyright © 2013 PayPal, Inc. All rights reserved. PayPal is located at
2211 N. First St., San Jose, CA 95131.

PayPal Email ID  PP943

[ooeygooeygold]

This has happened so many times, I'm really shocked it's still happening. You shouldn't be using Paypal for Bitcoins - ever.

Paypal is not to be used for digital goods -- their de jure rules, our de facto rules. She may not have even claimed fraud, but Paypal may have reversed the transaction because you broke their rules (probably eBay's, too) and don't consider the transaction valid.

What was in the email Paypal sent you?

We've concluded our investigation into the transaction detailed below.
*snip*

What did they send before that? Generally, they'll have someone personally oversee cases and give you updates.

feedback was positive on ebay....paypal and ebay are huge scammers

[soniq]

Are u dumb?

What BTC needs is pioneers that are willing to take risks and establish more markets for BTC, not negativity

I have had two BTC transactions with Paypal reversed by the buyers CC.  I  then submitted my evidence and Paypal  has sided with me and is disputing the reversal with the CC companies, time will tell if I receive my money.

But the more that this happens the more that Paypal and other online merchants are going to realize that BTC is here to stay and they need to make adjustments.

[ooeygooeygold]

Are u dumb?

What BTC needs is pioneers that are willing to take risks and establish more markets for BTC, not negativity

I have had two BTC transactions with Paypal reversed by the buyers CC.  I  then submitted my evidence and Paypal  has sided with me and is disputing the reversal with the CC companies, time will tell if I receive my money.

But the more that this happens the more that Paypal and other online merchants are going to realize that BTC is here to stay and they need to make adjustments.

how am i dumb?

I just sent her one more email before I'm ready to message (not harass anyone) all her friends/family I just want to explain my story to them I hope it really comes back and bites her in the ass

Heres the last email I'm sending:
Hello,
Paypal has refunded you the $1200 for the bitcoins that I sent you will you please refund me. It really sucks being scammed. Please be a good person and send back my money or bitcoins. Good karma will come and vice-revisa. Please don't let this scam happen. It is really bad feeling to be scammed and I wish it upon no one.
Thank you,
-Michael

[TheSwede75]

Selling BTC on Ebay, totally against Ebay rules AND paypal policies is pretty dumb.

[ooeygooeygold]

Selling BTC on Ebay, totally against Ebay rules AND paypal policies is pretty dumb.

+1 they could join up with crypto-currencies and make much more money instead they are trying to drive them away. Wonder who will win this fight? Maybe this time ebay/paypal got me but I'm sure as hell I won't be doing that again maybe even little to no business with either one of them anymore. In my eyes they completely scammed me.

[deepceleron]

This has happened so many times, I'm really shocked it's still happening. You shouldn't be using Paypal for Bitcoins - ever.

Paypal is not to be used for digital goods -- their de jure rules, our de facto rules. She may not have even claimed fraud, but Paypal may have reversed the transaction because you broke their rules (probably eBay's, too) and don't consider the transaction valid.

What was in the email Paypal sent you?

We've concluded our investigation into the transaction detailed below.
*snip*

What did they send before that? Generally, they'll have someone personally oversee cases and give you updates.

feedback was positive on ebay....paypal and ebay are huge scammers

Sellers cannot leave negative feedback even on the most scummy thieving users - they disabled that because bad feedback on criminals makes for a "negative user experience". eBay universally screws the seller, since the seller will always be easier to get money from (even by sending to debt collection if you withdrew the money) than the criminal using a hacked account, and then they take away the feedback ability that would make eBay look like a scammer's paradise for doing this.

eBay used to be just about collecting exorbitant fees on money and merchandise they never touched (and just let people leave honest feedback), Then they got into the PayPal business (so they could move money around in their system with 3% friction until it is all theirs), but then they realized that they couldn't let themselves eat the cost of fraud.

[ooeygooeygold]

Sellers cannot leave negative feedback even on the most scummy thieving users - they disabled that because bad feedback on criminals makes for a "negative user experience". eBay universally screws the seller, since the seller will always be easier to get money from (even by sending to debt collection if you withdrew the money) than the criminal using a hacked account, and then they take away the feedback ability that would make eBay look like a scammer's paradise for doing this.

eBay used to be just about collecting exorbitant fees on money and merchandise they never touched (and just let people leave honest feedback), Then they got into the PayPal business (so they could move money around in their system with 3% friction until it is all theirs), but then they realized that they couldn't let themselves eat the cost of fraud.

I cant wait for the day that all their scams catch up to them it is soon to come with all these crypto-currencies in the workings. I still feel bitcoins is in its baby stage. One day everyone in the world will be using some form of crypto-currency.

[Blisk]

Latelly is alot of stealing bitcoins on ebay. Because buyers knows when they report a compromised account paypal will always no mather what give money back to buyer. No mather what evidence you provide to paypal that selling was regular and honest.
So I lost about 2BTC with that kind of cheating buyers and you can't do anything.
Banks don't wan't a currency which they can not controll so they will do anything to discredit BTC.
I will not use ebay anymore for selling BTCs even because they tax me for BTC and I don't know one country on the world which have tax for BTC.
And they tax BTC and tkeas fees for listing and also paypal takes 3,4% for money transfering to paypal account and some percent takes when you get money on your credit card. So at the end you find out that they take 20-30% of your money.

[TheJamesFund]

Just to let you know I am Suing Paypal for the same thing, but I have proof that paypal is fraud. I had a friend paypal me for $110 stating its is for bitcoins. Even though my friend DID NOT make a claim, paypal reversed the money back to him...Paypal made there own judgement. I have lost $9000 over paypal where they deducted the funds out of my bank account AFTER 10 deposited into my account saying they suspected I was a scam when I had the account with them over 7 years AND a powerseller on ebay. They reversed not only the charges they thought was a fraud but reversed the bank deposits that was credit to my account OVER 10 days old. Left my account negative cause I wrote checks and wire more money to buy more BTC to sell. According to Paypal TOS you can only sue them individually now and not a class action suit. If you like to sue them and had significant loss, you can contact a local attorney to help you. It will cost $500 or so but you will get it back.

[TheJamesFund]

So a little over a month ago I was selling bitcoins on ebay and having a positive experience. Well that ended quickly as for reasons most of you already know about dealing with paypal and ebay. Well I have sold about 20-30 bitcoins on ebay  only till i started dealing with 5 bitcoins or more is when paypal stopped me. Pretty much saying to themselves wow this guy is making good money lets freeze it. So finally my time came and someone bought 3 bitcoins for $300 each (when bitcoins were over 200) and this women paid me and I paid her. We both left positive feedback and paypal froze the funds claiming fraud. The women had over 100 feedback and was a regular ebayer the last time she purchased something was less then a week before. I emailed her asking what was going on and if she could email paypal for me. She posted her blockchain address in paypal and I sent them screenshots of my blockchain transaction log and her leaving me positive feedback. Today paypal sent me an email saying they sent her the funds back. Well.....now what to do? I found her on facebook by matching the name and address. I'm thinking about sending all her friends and family about the scam she pulled on me with screenshoots. Does anyone have any better ideas for me?

I just notice the date I the same time frame when Paypal F me over

[JoelKatz]

Just to let you know I am Suing Paypal for the same thing, but I have proof that paypal is fraud. I had a friend paypal me for $110 stating its is for bitcoins. Even though my friend DID NOT make a claim, paypal reversed the money back to him...Paypal made there own judgement. I have lost $9000 over paypal where they deducted the funds out of my bank account AFTER 10 deposited into my account saying they suspected I was a scam when I had the account with them over 7 years AND a powerseller on ebay. They reversed not only the charges they thought was a fraud but reversed the bank deposits that was credit to my account OVER 10 days old. Left my account negative cause I wrote checks and wire more money to buy more BTC to sell. According to Paypal TOS you can only sue them individually now and not a class action suit. If you like to sue them and had significant loss, you can contact a local attorney to help you. It will cost $500 or so but you will get it back.

The buyers still owe you the money, you should sue *them* not PayPal. Much as I dislike PayPal (many of you probably know my PayPal horror story) they are perfectly within their rights to disintermediate themselves from a transaction they don't wish to be a part of.

[TheJamesFund]

Just to let you know I am Suing Paypal for the same thing, but I have proof that paypal is fraud. I had a friend paypal me for $110 stating its is for bitcoins. Even though my friend DID NOT make a claim, paypal reversed the money back to him...Paypal made there own judgement. I have lost $9000 over paypal where they deducted the funds out of my bank account AFTER 10 deposited into my account saying they suspected I was a scam when I had the account with them over 7 years AND a powerseller on ebay. They reversed not only the charges they thought was a fraud but reversed the bank deposits that was credit to my account OVER 10 days old. Left my account negative cause I wrote checks and wire more money to buy more BTC to sell. According to Paypal TOS you can only sue them individually now and not a class action suit. If you like to sue them and had significant loss, you can contact a local attorney to help you. It will cost $500 or so but you will get it back.

The buyers still owe you the money, you should sue *them* not PayPal. Much as I dislike PayPal (many of you probably know my PayPal horror story) they are perfectly within their rights to disintermediate themselves from a transaction they don't wish to be a part of.

Paypal has no right to withdraw out of the bank account after the deposit is made, especially after 10 days. Anyways, I was awarded damages and collection cost. In my situation, there was no charge backs. Paypal withdrew money out of my account to hold funds and not because of charge backs.

[infested999]

Paypal has no right to withdraw out of the bank account after the deposit is made

Yes they do, you signed their TOS.

[JoelKatz]

Paypal has no right to withdraw out of the bank account after the deposit is made, especially after 10 days.

Yes, they do. I even explained why in the post you are responding to.

Anyways, I was awarded damages and collection cost. In my situation, there was no charge backs. Paypal withdrew money out of my account to hold funds and not because of charge backs.

Whether or not there was a charge back has nothing to do with anything.

Fundamentally, Paypal is a reversible payment service. They deliver funds from one person to another, so long as the sender actually wants to send those funds. If the buyer doesn't want to pay the seller or the sale violates Paypal's terms, Paypal reserves the right to disintermediate themselves, leaving the buyer and seller to resolve their dispute.

In your case, Paypal decided to disintermediate themselves. This just means they refused to handle the payment. The buyer still owes you the money and can still pay you if they want to. It's not Paypal's job to make someone pay you if they don't want to pay you. And it should be 100% clear to everyone that Paypal does not ever confirm a payment is irreversibly made.

As has been explained on this forum and many others, this makes Paypal unsuitable for selling Bitcoins to people you don't trust because the Bitcoin payment is irreversible and the Paypal payment isn't. You chose to rely on the honesty of the buyer. If the buyer is dishonest, then you're screwed, and that's not Paypal's fault. If the buyer is honest, they should have paid you once they got their money back from Paypal.