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Author Topic: Segregated Witness vs Bitcoin Unlimited vs Do Nothing  (Read 2766 times)
franky1
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April 19, 2017, 01:52:36 PM
Last edit: April 19, 2017, 02:03:30 PM by franky1
 #21

I always wondered why we still have (beside SegWit, bitcoin unlimited  and undecided miners) another option signaled: 8 MB blocks.
What BW Pool is thinking? This option is totally, not going to work, it is condemned to fail. They know it, we know it. Then Why?

its about knowing that 8mb is network safe. blockstream know it.
but blockstream want to control things by spoonfeeding.
since 2015 there has been
2017-03-08 - Bitcoin Core version 0.14.0 released
2017-01-03 - Bitcoin Core version 0.13.2 released
2016-10-27 - Bitcoin Core version 0.13.1 released
2016-08-23 - Bitcoin Core version 0.13.0 released
2016-04-15 - Bitcoin Core version 0.12.1 released
2016-02-23 - Bitcoin Core version 0.12.0 released

and even then there is a v0.14.1 coming soon.
and even if segwit gets activated. EVERYONE wanting segwit needs to download yet another version after activation just to get to 'opt-in' to the new keypairs just to get the voluntary disarming themself feature that blockstream used to call a 'fix'.
yep its not a network wide fix its just a voluntary dis-armourment/amnesty, which funnily enough only the innocent people not spamming would opt-in for anyway. thus solving nothing.

if blockstream just recognised in 2015 what the community wanted and done a 8mb single merkle version(consensus.h) where by the nodes could voluntarily say 'i prefer 2mb'(policy.h and useragent display)
then the pools follow the voluntary blocksize preference..

we would have a true single merkle block that was most definetly under 8mb size and dynamically growing at what the majority preferred of say 2mb and grows based on user settings at runtime. without the need of wasting 3 years and atleast 7 different downloads required

get it yet
7 downloads with unachievable hopes of 100% of people move the 46m UTXO to segwit keys to get the estimated upto 2mb 2merkle klusterf*ck of a tier network. which is going to be kept pushing right up until 2019

vs
something that could have been done properly last year that by now would have got high percentage community united around for a healthy peer network

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BillyBobZorton
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April 19, 2017, 02:05:33 PM
 #22

Hashing support for segwit goes up, price goes up:



Most relevant actors in the field reject BU and support segwit:



https://medium.com/@21/using-21-to-survey-blockchain-personalities-on-the-bitcoin-hard-fork-1953c9bcb8ed

Most nodes support segwit:





Only a fool would go against this objective reality. Miners that aren't yet signaling for segwit (basically Jihan only with his various pools) are proving to go against:

1) All experts
2) All relevant actors
3) The market
4) Basically all nodes (nobody support BU software)

Miners that are still not signaling for segwit (basically Jihan only with his various pools) are against Bitcoin going to the next level.

Miners that are supporting BU want to see the market crash, thus are enemies of Bitcoin.

The fact that a couple of chinese state-sponsored mining monopolies (basically Jihan only with his various pools) get to stop the rest of the Bitcoin ecosystem is ridiculous.
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April 19, 2017, 02:17:07 PM
Last edit: April 19, 2017, 04:02:12 PM by franky1
 #23

im laughing at billybob
trying to mix litecoin with bitcoin results to confuse the numbers.. funny

trying to say there are actually 100k nodes when a more reliable metric is bitnodes which has ~7000
and sipa (segwit main guys) block stats http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ver9-2k.png ~68% say no/abstain

1. bitcoin: 68% of blocks and 36% of nodes say no/abstain
where by even then you dont know if the 'yays' are explicit 'yays' or fabricated 'yays' just to avoid DDoS/hacks by hiding as 'yays'

2. assuming that its all down to 1-2 guys causing it...... (facepalm)

if you think that DDoSing isnt happening

meanwhile bitcoins segwit 31% block flagging is only temporary due to a hack expect it to drop back down below 30% in the next fortnight

https://twitter.com/f2pool_wangchun/status/848582740798611456
Quote
Wang Chun‏ @f2pool_wangchun

Someone hacked major mining operations and their stratum had been changed from antpool, viabtc, btctop to us. Our hashrate doubled instantly

10:07 am - 2 Apr 2017

* note it dropped below 30% on the 14th-15th of april as predicted





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April 19, 2017, 02:46:05 PM
 #24

im laughing at billybob
trying to mix litecoin with bitcoin results to confuse the numbers.. funny

trying to say there are actually 100k nodes when a more reliable metric is bitnodes which has ~7000
and sipa (segwit main guys) block stats http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ver9-2k.png ~68 say no/abstain

1. bitcoin: 68% of blocks and 36% of nodes say no/abstain
where by even then you dont know if the 'yays' are explicit 'yays' or fabricated 'yays' just to avoid DDoS/hacks by hiding as 'yays'

2. assuming that its all down to 1-2 guys causing it...... (facepalm)

if you think that DDoSing isnt happening

meanwhile bitcoins segwit 31% block flagging is only temporary due to a hack expect it to drop back down below 30% in the next fortnight

https://twitter.com/f2pool_wangchun/status/848582740798611456
Quote
Wang Chun‏ @f2pool_wangchun

Someone hacked major mining operations and their stratum had been changed from antpool, viabtc, btctop to us. Our hashrate doubled instantly

10:07 am - 2 Apr 2017

* note it dropped below 30% on the 14th-15th of april as predicted





Wrong. When asked, all major players rejected BU and want segwit.

Wang Chung recently started signaling for segwit with his f2pool, this resulted in a clear uptrend to $1,200, so I don't see how anyone that isn't delusional isn't seeing the positive connection of segwit on the price.

Please realize that no amount of posts will change this reality: Segwit up: price up. All major players except Jihan: support segwit.
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April 19, 2017, 02:59:49 PM
 #25

The " Do Nothing " crowd has to make up their damn mind and stop sitting on the wire like a bunch of cowards. Taking a position that would not

take us forward is going to hurt Bitcoin more than what they might think SegWit or BU would do. We need some sort of scaling solution or Bitcoin

will die or be replaced by a technology that can scale. { No scaling = RIP Bitcoin }  Angry

 
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April 19, 2017, 03:38:52 PM
 #26

The " Do Nothing " crowd has to make up their damn mind and stop sitting on the wire like a bunch of cowards. Taking a position that would not

take us forward is going to hurt Bitcoin more than what they might think SegWit or BU would do. We need some sort of scaling solution or Bitcoin

will die or be replaced by a technology that can scale. { No scaling = RIP Bitcoin }  Angry

Doing nothing is as valid of an option as the next thing. Some people value the immutability of bitcoin as a very attractive feature, specially if you intend to use bitcoin as a long term store of value where you expect the price going up.

Sure, I want to see bitcoin with segwit and lightning network to enable instant payments and see bitcoin getting used in over the counter real life situations, but other people don't care about scaling bitcoin, they just want it to be as immutable as possible. Lack of consensus may lead us into a split tho, and hodlers shouldn't have that on their plans.
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April 19, 2017, 03:44:06 PM
 #27

Some people value the immutability of bitcoin as a very attractive feature, specially if you intend to use bitcoin as a long term store of value where you expect the price going up.

Sure, I want to see bitcoin with segwit and lightning network to enable instant payments and see bitcoin getting used in over the counter real life situations, but other people don't care about scaling bitcoin, they just want it to be as immutable as possible. Lack of consensus may lead us into a split tho, and hodlers shouldn't have that on their plans.

There's immutable and then there's ossified. Many people would be more comfortable with something immutable that had capacity baked in. Then it's welcome to be as immutable as fuck.

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April 19, 2017, 03:47:57 PM
 #28

My best to worse choices are:
SW
Any other idea to resolve block size
Do nothing
BW

We will have to do something sooner or later, because without resolving this issue large worldwide acceptance cannot happen, but BW is not the answer. Bw is a commercial move to fill pockets of a few already wealthy individuals.

 
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April 19, 2017, 03:56:16 PM
 #29

Some people value the immutability of bitcoin as a very attractive feature, specially if you intend to use bitcoin as a long term store of value where you expect the price going up.

Sure, I want to see bitcoin with segwit and lightning network to enable instant payments and see bitcoin getting used in over the counter real life situations, but other people don't care about scaling bitcoin, they just want it to be as immutable as possible. Lack of consensus may lead us into a split tho, and hodlers shouldn't have that on their plans.

There's immutable and then there's ossified. Many people would be more comfortable with something immutable that had capacity baked in. Then it's welcome to be as immutable as fuck.

Well, the possibility for it to mutate is there: 95% hashrate agreement. Thought luck with that as we all know.

What are the alternatives? UASF, as we also know, can lead to a chain split, which can be a disaster for the price, but maybe it's our only way out from Jihan's monopoly.
We are assuming that the rest of the miners don't rebel against the PoW change and start mining BUcoin tho... so don't count victory.

It's a extremely tricky situation. I wish that we could at least get segwit, then LN. But even after we get LN, we would need eventual blocksize increases, otherwise optionally doing onchain transactions would be impossible, and LN functionality itself I assume would suffer eventually, without said blocksize increase.

Unfortunately, none of the "flexible blocksize" proposals work, so we will see situations like this every X years.
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April 19, 2017, 04:08:21 PM
 #30

It's a extremely tricky situation. I wish that we could at least get segwit, then LN. But even after we get LN, we would need eventual blocksize increases, otherwise optionally doing onchain transactions would be impossible, and LN functionality itself I assume would suffer eventually, without said blocksize increase.

Indeed. I think part of the problem is that despite all the noise, everyone with influence is still too fat and comfortable to be pushed to action. Exchanges are still coining it, miners certainly are, Core can point to things working perfectly.

The only people who may not be so content are the users and by the time they make themselves properly known they might be permanently shopping elsewhere.


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April 19, 2017, 04:10:06 PM
Last edit: April 19, 2017, 05:23:24 PM by franky1
 #31



you keep saying you want segwit.
what part of segwit can you prove is a 100% fix. that you desire about segwit
what part of segwit can you prove is a 100% guarantee promise. that you desire about segwit

can you even explain HOW the parts of segwit that you desire actually get the promise/fix

so before just pasting off another daily reddit script stats page..

i want you to actually do the segwit research and show you understand segwit, and can convince me that segwit will 100% get the promise you desire to show why you are sooo devoted into wanting it.

im guessing its going to be a reply about 'who' coded it not what they coded.

now lets see your reply.
please
no insults.
no 'cant be arsed'
no 'why should i tell you'
no 'if you dont know why ask me' word twisting..

i have done the research so lets see if you really understand segwit beyond the 30 second utopian sales pitch.


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April 19, 2017, 04:11:58 PM
Last edit: April 19, 2017, 04:40:28 PM by franky1
 #32

Core can point to things working perfectly.

i laugh at that statement
along with 'core are the best team'

if everything is perfect and core are the best team.. then there is no need for segwit, there would be no debate
because there are no problems and bitcoin is already in utopia.. right (sarcasm)

oh an the other laugh
core are independent..

after all if independent then when devs do something independently they why would they be subject to REKT campaigns. or fear peer reviewing and helping out independently of other implementations.

the only way they can end up helping is by pretending to attack by publicising the issues of other peer implementations. that way they wont get pigeon holed into other implementations be acting like they are attacking it. when realy they are saying something needs to be fixed at line x,y,z

even gmax is keping his head low by hiring samson mow to be the face of UASF so that gmax doesnt get the face smack talk about Uasf issues and thrown the BIP's moderation over to luke JR and trying to make it look lik achow is the cencorship master of the tech discussion of this forum.. although the puppet strings are visible

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April 20, 2017, 12:15:41 PM
 #33

Do Nothing crowd is going to be deciding factor of the scaling debate.
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April 20, 2017, 12:41:43 PM
 #34

i laugh at that statement
along with 'core are the best team'

if everything is perfect and core are the best team.. then there is no need for segwit, there would be no debate
because there are no problems and bitcoin is already in utopia.. right (sarcasm)

oh an the other laugh
core are independent..

after all if independent then when devs do something independently they why would they be subject to REKT campaigns. or fear peer reviewing and helping out independently of other implementations.

the only way they can end up helping is by pretending to attack by publicising the issues of other peer implementations. that way they wont get pigeon holed into other implementations be acting like they are attacking it. when realy they are saying something needs to be fixed at line x,y,z

even gmax is keping his head low by hiring samson mow to be the face of UASF so that gmax doesnt get the face smack talk about Uasf issues and thrown the BIP's moderation over to luke JR and trying to make it look lik achow is the cencorship master of the tech discussion of this forum.. although the puppet strings are visible

How much does Roger pays you for each FUD post you make? $1 $10? If you know so much about it why dont you share youre opinion on GitHub? You wont do that because youre troll ass will be destroyed over there.

I know you have been rejected Franky1, youre pessimism is not a way to excuse youre self.
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April 20, 2017, 02:17:00 PM
 #35

Why do we still debate about which one is better: SegWit or BU?!
Apparently no one cares about the community's opinions, only Hash-rate is the one speaking out loud. If you want your opinion to be heard, why don't you get some hashrate and then decide what you want?! And the sitting ducks who would flow with the river, they should decide what they want now and spare us this fucking headache.

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April 20, 2017, 02:38:33 PM
 #36

How much does Roger pays you for each FUD post you make? $1 $10? If you know so much about it why dont you share youre opinion on GitHub? You wont do that because youre troll ass will be destroyed over there.

I know you have been rejected Franky1, youre pessimism is not a way to excuse youre self.

i do not get paid, sponsored or handed any funds for my opinions or comments. nor am i paid by roger or any other bitcoin corporation or project.
i am self sufficient which means i don't have to 'toe the line' or kiss ass.

your right the censorship of cores github is high.. but that just reveals the problem..
lack of independence and obvious censorship.

there are over a dozen implementations that all get REKT. and lots of independent devs that have their opinions quashed at the door.
thats not the fault of independence. thats the fault of core not being as open as they falsely proclaim.

if you think that centralised control is cores asset. then you have failed to understand what the whole point of bitcoins ethos/invention was originally.

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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April 20, 2017, 02:52:21 PM
 #37

I always wondered why we still have (beside SegWit, bitcoin unlimited  and undecided miners) another option signaled: 8 MB blocks.
What BW Pool is thinking? This option is totally, not going to work, it is condemned to fail. They know it, we know it. Then Why?

I accept 16MB blocks, so why wouldn't it work? If they generated an 8MB block, my home PC would validate it in seconds, in the background while I'm gaming.

I can validate that while video editing. The trick is to use one drive for editing and another drive for Bitcoin.

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April 20, 2017, 03:42:31 PM
 #38

Some people value the immutability of bitcoin as a very attractive feature, specially if you intend to use bitcoin as a long term store of value where you expect the price going up.

Sure, I want to see bitcoin with segwit and lightning network to enable instant payments and see bitcoin getting used in over the counter real life situations, but other people don't care about scaling bitcoin, they just want it to be as immutable as possible. Lack of consensus may lead us into a split tho, and hodlers shouldn't have that on their plans.

There's immutable and then there's ossified. Many people would be more comfortable with something immutable that had capacity baked in. Then it's welcome to be as immutable as fuck.

Well, the possibility for it to mutate is there: 95% hashrate agreement. Thought luck with that as we all know.

What are the alternatives? UASF, as we also know, can lead to a chain split, which can be a disaster for the price, but maybe it's our only way out from Jihan's monopoly.
We are assuming that the rest of the miners don't rebel against the PoW change and start mining BUcoin tho... so don't count victory.

It's a extremely tricky situation. I wish that we could at least get segwit, then LN. But even after we get LN, we would need eventual blocksize increases, otherwise optionally doing onchain transactions would be impossible, and LN functionality itself I assume would suffer eventually, without said blocksize increase.

Unfortunately, none of the "flexible blocksize" proposals work, so we will see situations like this every X years.

Why?

The more i look into segwit, the i am not liking it. LN is a no no for me.

The current impasse can be solve with a straight forwards 1mb to 2mb. Then up to 3mb when the time comes. In the meanwhile the developers can go back to the drawing board.

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April 20, 2017, 03:49:39 PM
 #39

Hashing support for segwit goes up, price goes up:
-snip-

As much as I would like attribute the current bullish trend to rising SegWit support, it is most likely not the case.
Price of bitcoin is growing because all major Chinese Bitcoin exchanges + Bitfinex stopped accepting US dollar deposits and withdrawals.
Exchanges blame banks for problems with wired transfers. No one knows for sure what is going on.
This situation caused BTC price to grow due to increased demand because traders buy BTC to withdraw it and there is no way to sell it.


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April 20, 2017, 04:03:40 PM
 #40

From what I see SegWit is gaining more and more %. Just look at the numbers for the last 24h:

And imho the numbers are not even 100% "correct" because there are pools (like Slush) which are signaling sometimes SegWit, sometimes BU, so while now they "split" their hashrate (I am not sure how are they calculated), they will just join the winning side at the end.
Slush doesn't calculate anything to split their hashrate. They give each individual user/miner the option to vote and signal for whatever they want. They can also vote to let the pool operator decide what he feels best.
Take a look at this: https://slushpool.com/stats/?c=btc
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