No Taxation...Donation!

[xcsler]

Over the past several years of paying my "fair share" of taxes and studying Libertarianism, Voluntarism, and Austrian economics I have come to the conclusion that taxes are essentially collective theft and inefficient.

Unlike my liberty minded colleagues, statists cannot envision a functional world without their brilliant and insightful guidance and Bitcoin represents huge threat to their central planning philosophy.
The current POTUS rails against "promoting selfishness as a virtue" and over the past 4 years has made good on his initial campaign promise to "spread the wealth around". There is no doubt that there is great income inequality across the globe but I would argue that this has more to do with government policies and their central bank enablers than anything else.

I believe that roads, schools, healthcare and everything else can be provided more efficiently by the free market. I suspect that many Bitcoiners and Satoshi himself hold similar beliefs.

I would like to see our community develop tools whereby individuals could voluntarily fund projects that have been traditionally thought of as being under the purview of the state. I would hope that this could prove once and for all that individual freedom is sacrosanct and that Bitcoin could be seen as a force for the common good and embraced as opposed to a threat.

[virtualmaster]

They are very valid points. I agree.
Bitcoin should help the people everywhere.

[Birdy]

While I would like that to happen, I'm very doubtful.
But Bitcoiners are more likely to like your concept, I'm sure.

(See also this discussion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=187616)
I got so much hate for an idea that is pretty much in the middle ground of enforced taxes by states and free will to spend.
(Majority decides what tax would be a good number for a state to sustain)

[Hawker]

I don't get it - why do some Bitcoin enthusiasts think that Bitcoin magically removes the need for a state?

[farlack]

Taxes are needed.

1. I don't go to school, and my kids are not old enough, and will go to private when they are.
Why should I have to pay for schools? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
2. I hardly use the roads, and when I go long distance, I pay a toll to use the road.
Why should I be paying for roads all over the state of Florida? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
3. I don't go to hospitals, why should I pay for others to go? Don't get yourself injured.
I hardly leave my house, why should I pay because some idiot ran into a tree on his motorcycle?

As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population. If I don't use it, why pay for it?
Though, knowing society will fall without everyone else to using my money, I will pay up.

[tuliplover]

Taxes are needed.

1. I don't go to school, and my kids are not old enough, and will go to private when they are.
Why should I have to pay for schools? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
2. I hardly use the roads, and when I go long distance, I pay a toll to use the road.
Why should I be paying for roads all over the state of Florida? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
3. I don't go to hospitals, why should I pay for others to go? Don't get yourself injured.
I hardly leave my house, why should I pay because some idiot ran into a tree on his motorcycle?

As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population. If I don't use it, why pay for it?
Though, knowing society will fall without everyone else to using my money, I will pay up.

Those are valid questions, though i don't see why society would fall because you're sitting home alone, unmolested.

[farlack]

Taxes are needed.

1. I don't go to school, and my kids are not old enough, and will go to private when they are.
Why should I have to pay for schools? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
2. I hardly use the roads, and when I go long distance, I pay a toll to use the road.
Why should I be paying for roads all over the state of Florida? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
3. I don't go to hospitals, why should I pay for others to go? Don't get yourself injured.
I hardly leave my house, why should I pay because some idiot ran into a tree on his motorcycle?

As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population. If I don't use it, why pay for it?
Though, knowing society will fall without everyone else to using my money, I will pay up.

Those are valid questions, though i don't see why society would fall because you're sitting home alone, unmolested.

If no one was paying money into things they don't use, society will fall.

[Hawker]

Taxes are needed.

1. I don't go to school, and my kids are not old enough, and will go to private when they are.
Why should I have to pay for schools? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
2. I hardly use the roads, and when I go long distance, I pay a toll to use the road.
Why should I be paying for roads all over the state of Florida? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
3. I don't go to hospitals, why should I pay for others to go? Don't get yourself injured.
I hardly leave my house, why should I pay because some idiot ran into a tree on his motorcycle?

As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population. If I don't use it, why pay for it?
Though, knowing society will fall without everyone else to using my money, I will pay up.

Those are valid questions, though i don't see why society would fall because you're sitting home alone, unmolested.

If no one was paying money into things they don't use, society will fall.

You are right but brace yourself for frantic whines of people who insist that the time to charge for a fire service is when the fire has already started.

[tuliplover]

Taxes are needed.

1. I don't go to school, and my kids are not old enough, and will go to private when they are.
Why should I have to pay for schools? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
2. I hardly use the roads, and when I go long distance, I pay a toll to use the road.
Why should I be paying for roads all over the state of Florida? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
3. I don't go to hospitals, why should I pay for others to go? Don't get yourself injured.
I hardly leave my house, why should I pay because some idiot ran into a tree on his motorcycle?

As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population. If I don't use it, why pay for it?
Though, knowing society will fall without everyone else to using my money, I will pay up.

Those are valid questions, though i don't see why society would fall because you're sitting home alone, unmolested.

If no one was paying money into things they don't use, society will fall.

Why?

[tuliplover]

Taxes are needed.

1. I don't go to school, and my kids are not old enough, and will go to private when they are.
Why should I have to pay for schools? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
2. I hardly use the roads, and when I go long distance, I pay a toll to use the road.
Why should I be paying for roads all over the state of Florida? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
3. I don't go to hospitals, why should I pay for others to go? Don't get yourself injured.
I hardly leave my house, why should I pay because some idiot ran into a tree on his motorcycle?

As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population. If I don't use it, why pay for it?
Though, knowing society will fall without everyone else to using my money, I will pay up.

Those are valid questions, though i don't see why society would fall because you're sitting home alone, unmolested.

If no one was paying money into things they don't use, society will fall.

You are right but brace yourself for frantic whines of people who insist that the time to charge for a fire service is when the fire has already started.

You mean nobody would pay for any kind of insurance, unless they're forced to?

[Hawker]

Taxes are needed.

1. I don't go to school, and my kids are not old enough, and will go to private when they are.
Why should I have to pay for schools? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
2. I hardly use the roads, and when I go long distance, I pay a toll to use the road.
Why should I be paying for roads all over the state of Florida? If I had the choice I wouldn't.
3. I don't go to hospitals, why should I pay for others to go? Don't get yourself injured.
I hardly leave my house, why should I pay because some idiot ran into a tree on his motorcycle?

As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population. If I don't use it, why pay for it?
Though, knowing society will fall without everyone else to using my money, I will pay up.

Those are valid questions, though i don't see why society would fall because you're sitting home alone, unmolested.

If no one was paying money into things they don't use, society will fall.

You are right but brace yourself for frantic whines of people who insist that the time to charge for a fire service is when the fire has already started.

You mean nobody would pay for any kind of insurance, unless they're forced to?

http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

Have a read of this.  Even your ideal libertarian society will have things like conscription and eminent domain.  Pretty sure that fire services will be compulsory much the same way.

[WiW]

I don't get it - why do some Bitcoin enthusiasts think that Bitcoin magically removes the need for a state?

It doesn't. It simply returns one's power to decide how to spend one's money. States are known to thrive on exactly the opposite.

It will be interesting what "states" will look like in a bitcoin world. States looking like they are today will certainly have a hard time not going bankrupt when everyone decides for themselves how to spend their money, instead of figureheads wasting it on bombs.

[Hawker]

I don't get it - why do some Bitcoin enthusiasts think that Bitcoin magically removes the need for a state?

It doesn't. It simply returns one's power to decide how to spend one's money. States are known to thrive on exactly the opposite.

It will be interesting what "states" will look like in a bitcoin world. States looking like they are today will certainly have a hard time not going bankrupt when everyone decides for themselves how to spend their money, instead of figureheads wasting it on bombs.

States will treat Bitcoin the way they treat gold or any other commodity.

[WiW]

I don't get it - why do some Bitcoin enthusiasts think that Bitcoin magically removes the need for a state?

It doesn't. It simply returns one's power to decide how to spend one's money. States are known to thrive on exactly the opposite.

It will be interesting what "states" will look like in a bitcoin world. States looking like they are today will certainly have a hard time not going bankrupt when everyone decides for themselves how to spend their money, instead of figureheads wasting it on bombs.

States will treat Bitcoin the way they treat gold or any other commodity.

Gold-based states and paper-based states look very different. Especially if you change the one parameter tech level = post industrial revolution. It will be interesting indeed, but I'm confident it will be different.

[cp1]

When you make everyone better you make your situation better at the same time.

[Hawker]

I don't get it - why do some Bitcoin enthusiasts think that Bitcoin magically removes the need for a state?

It doesn't. It simply returns one's power to decide how to spend one's money. States are known to thrive on exactly the opposite.

It will be interesting what "states" will look like in a bitcoin world. States looking like they are today will certainly have a hard time not going bankrupt when everyone decides for themselves how to spend their money, instead of figureheads wasting it on bombs.

States will treat Bitcoin the way they treat gold or any other commodity.

Gold-based states and paper-based states look very different. Especially if you change the one parameter tech level = post industrial revolution. It will be interesting indeed, but I'm confident it will be different.

True.  Gold-based states are as rare as unicorns and paper-based states are all over the place.  But my point that Bitcoin will be taxed like gold or any other commodity remains.

[Birdy]

True.  Gold-based states are as rare as unicorns and paper-based states are all over the place.  But my point that Bitcoin will be taxed like gold or any other commodity remains.

The difficulty is proving how much Bitcoins you have.
How will a state handle this without enforcing ridicously high control on the internet?

[tuliplover]

http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

Have a read of this.  Even your ideal libertarian society will have things like conscription and eminent domain.  Pretty sure that fire services will be compulsory much the same way.

It's on my list, though I thought Friedman was an ancap, so no conscription and such. But I'll see what his issues are and we can get back to it.
It's interesting that you think you know what my ideal society would look like, and you're sure that there would be a compulsory fire service.
Maybe the future will be a little different from what you can imagine.

[Hawker]

http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

Have a read of this.  Even your ideal libertarian society will have things like conscription and eminent domain.  Pretty sure that fire services will be compulsory much the same way.

It's on my list, though I thought Friedman was an ancap, so no conscription and such. But I'll see what his issues are and we can get back to it.
It's interesting that you think you know what my ideal society would look like, and you're sure that there would be a compulsory fire service.
Maybe the future will be a little different from what you can imagine.

He is indeed an ancap.  Its a good book - it makes what being in a libertarian society would be like very clear and logical.

[BTC Books]

1. I don't go to school, and my kids are not old enough, and will go to private when they are.
Why should I have to pay for schools? If I had the choice I wouldn't.

So you have an educated workforce that can keep up with technology.  If you're an employer with nothing to sift through but a bunch of dummies, you won't be able to compete.  If you're an uneducated employee, you won't be employed for long.  And in all cases, it's nice to be able to have an intelligent conversation with one's neighbors.

2. I hardly use the roads, and when I go long distance, I pay a toll to use the road.
Why should I be paying for roads all over the state of Florida? If I had the choice I wouldn't.

Because roads are the glue that bind our culture together.  Because without decent roads you'd have no cost-effective access to the goods of the world.  Because without roads you'd die of your first heart attack in an ambulance with a broken axle.  Because without tolls you can actually get somewhere - with toll roads everywhere, a holiday road trip would proceed at an average speed of about 25mph.  Because roads are a part of the strategic defense of a country.

3. I don't go to hospitals, why should I pay for others to go? Don't get yourself injured.
I hardly leave my house, why should I pay because some idiot ran into a tree on his motorcycle?

Because you will, fool.  You think you're going to live forever, without any health problems at all?  You want doctors working on you who have little experience because nobody can afford their services?  You want that idiot who ran into the tree fixed up, so he isn't a burden on all of us for the next forty years - or do you want him to get repaired and - having learnt a good lesson - walk out of the hospital and resume whatever his contributions to our society might be (keeping in mind that he must be contributing something, if he could afford the motorcycle in the first place)?

As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population. If I don't use it, why pay for it?
Though, knowing society will fall without everyone else to using my money, I will pay up.

These 'points' you raise are about what makes a society, and what holds it together.  And they are a part of what is called the Commons.  Without the willingness to pay for something we will never use, at some level, we will never get what we need to survive.  Never.  Because: "As you can see, I'm selfish, just like most of the population."

The Commons is exactly the same as an insurance policy.  You pay in - and you pay much less than any given service will cost you individually if you should happen to use it without 'coverage' - and you know that you can always get it out if necessity demands.

I've got no problems at all with taxation.  My problems are with those who do it, how they do it, and what they use the money for.

"Let me get this straight:

You want to defund Social Security.
And take people's security in the future away.
You want to defund Medicare
And take away their security now.
You want to defund Planned Parenthood
So we can have more unwanted children and more sexually transmitted diseases
You want to defund education
So that only those who can afford a private education will be educated
You want to defund HUD
And put poor people on the street
And you want everyone to be able to buy assault rifles?
What the hell could possibly go wrong?" ~Anon