[HOWTO] Trading/Buying/Selling Asicminer Shares Overview and Comparison

[SebastianJu]

Question & Answer:

Q: What are Asicminer-Passthroughs?
A: Asicminer-Passthroughs are not real Asicminer Shares. You buy a PT-Share from an exchange (see comparison below). The issuer owns real AM-Shares and sells you an AM-PT share. Then you get the dividend the real share gets delivered to you, because you own the PT-Share.

Q: What are Asicminer-Passthroughs-100?
A: They are PTs that are split in 100 parts. This way one real share is worth 100 of these shares. The price is lower this way and one can buy parts of a whole share.

Asicminer-Shares to Asicminer-Passthrough-Shares Comparison:

Asicminer-Shares:
Pro:
* Direct Contract with friedcat
* No Fees (Only donations for escrow while trading shares, if one was used. But that's not needed if you're greedy.)
* No delayed dividends compared to passthrough shares
Con:
* Harder to trade / Slower access to bitcoins/shares. Find an auction, start a thread or check the orderbook thread that is dead now. But maybe you find a relatively new offer in the orderbook thread and you can contact the user via pm about this.
* Possibility that you have to buy starting from a certain amount of shares, for example starting from 10 or 50. Means you need more money to invest often.
* Escrow needed for security in trading (there are free escrows, but a donation would be nice)

Asicminer-Passthrough-Shares:
Pro:
* Easily tradeable on the exchanges / Faster access to bitcoins/shares
Con:
* Fees
* Delayed dividends compared to non-passthrough shares
* No direct contract with friedcat but with burnside/deadterra, adding another small layer of insecurity
* Bound to an exchange, adding another small layer of insecurity

Asicminer-Passthrough-100-Shares:
Pro:
* Shares are worth 1/100 of a real share. One can buy with much less BTC.
* Fastest dividends payments besides the original Asicminer Shares.
* Easily tradeable on the exchanges / Faster access to bitcoins/shares
Con:
* Fees
* Dividend payment still delayed after real Asicminer, but the owner really is behind it and manages to send payments in minutes most of the time
* No direct contract with friedcat but with ThickAsThieves, adding another small layer of insecurity
* Bound to an exchange, adding another small layer of insecurity

Asicminer-Passthroughs Comparison:

Burnsides ASICMINER-PT on btct.co
Pro:
* AM-PT: Usually Higher share price for sellers
* AM-PT: As long burnside's ownership of BTC Trading Corp (BTCt.co) is 51% or higher, no management fee will be levied on dividend payments. (He has more than 51% at the moment.)
* AM-PT: Change real AM-Shares into PT-Shares is free always
* AM-PT: Change PT-AM-Shares into real AM-Shares is free when its 50 or more shares at once and its free for less than 50 shares once a month per account
* btct.co: "Deposits: Free | Withdrawals: 0 BTC FLAT FEE | Transfers (BTC): Free | Transfers (Assets): Free | Issue Dividends: Free"
* AM-PT: Usually dividends less delayed than AM-PT on bitfunder.com
Con:
* AM-PT: Usually Higher share price for buyers
* AM-PT: Change PT-AM-Shares into real AM-Shares cost 0.5% for less than 50 shares when the free transfer already happened. So the first transfer is free, all following under 50 shares have a price.
* AM-PT: If burnsides ownership of BTC Trading Corp (BTCt.co) drops below 51%, a management fee of 0.5% will be levied on each dividend payment. (He has more than 51% at the moment.)
* btct.co: Trading-Fees: "Trades using 2FA (Buyer): 0.2% (Trade Value X 0.002)
Trades using 2FA (Seller): 0.2% (Trade Value X 0.002)
Trades not using 2FA (Buyer): 0.25% (Trade Value X 0.0025)
Trades not using 2FA (Seller): 0.25% (Trade Value X 0.0025)"

ukyo's G.ASICMINER-PT on bitfunder.com
Pro:
* AM-PT: Usually Lower share price for buyers
* AM-PT: Each G.ASICMINER-PT share has the right to 100% of the dividends of 1 ASICMINER share. (No management fee)
* AM-PT: Transferring AM-PT-Shares to AM-Shares or the other way around have no fee
* bitfunder.com: Buying shares has no fee.
* bitfunder.com: No other fees than selling fees.
Con:
* AM-PT: Usually Lower share price for sellers
* AM-PT: Change PT-Shares into real shares starting from 250 shares (not set in stone, a bit lower possible if deadterra is ok with it)
* bitfunder.com: Selling fees range between between 1% and 0.5%(or lower with discounts) based on your account tier.
* AM-PT: Usually dividends more delayed than AM-PT on btct.co

Asicminer-Passthrough-100 Comparison:

ThickAsThieves TAT.ASICMINER on bitfunder.com
Pro:
* AM-PT: Usually Lower share price for buyers
* bitfunder.com: Buying shares has no fee.
* bitfunder.com: No other fees than selling fees.
Con:
* AM-PT: Usually Lower share price for sellers
* AM-PT: 5% fee for dividends
* AM-PT: No exchange from or to real AM-Shares and PT-100-Shares
* bitfunder.com: Selling fees range between 1% and 0.5%(or lower with discounts) based on your account tier.

ThickAsThieves TAT.ASICMINER on btct.co
Pro:
* AM-PT: Usually Higher share price for sellers
* btct.co: "Deposits: Free | Withdrawals: 0 BTC FLAT FEE | Transfers (BTC): Free | Transfers (Assets): Free | Issue Dividends: Free"
Con:
* AM-PT: Usually Higher share price for buyers
* AM-PT: 5% fee for dividends
* AM-PT: No exchange from or to real AM-Shares and PT-100-Shares
* btct.co: Trading-Fees: "Trades using 2FA (Buyer): 0.2% (Trade Value X 0.002)
Trades using 2FA (Seller): 0.2% (Trade Value X 0.002)
Trades not using 2FA (Buyer): 0.25% (Trade Value X 0.0025)
Trades not using 2FA (Seller): 0.25% (Trade Value X 0.0025)"

[furuknap]

I posted a reponse on SE too, that might answer a few more questions.

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10148/where-can-we-buy-shares-of-asicminer/10292#10292

I plan on writing a blog post about this because for some reason, a lot of people suddenly started asking how to get in.

 

.b

[furuknap]

OK, here's the blog post:

http://coin.furuknap.net/how-to-buy-asicminer-shares/

.b

[louong]

OK, here's the blog post:

http://coin.furuknap.net/how-to-buy-asicminer-shares/

.b

Great job! Posted this in the main ASICMINER thread but just wanted to add a slight correction for both posts - the ASICMINER PT on BitFunder does not have a 0.5% fee on dividends. BTC-TC does, but they've currently waived it for now.

[furuknap]

Great job! Posted this in the main ASICMINER thread but just wanted to add a slight correction for both posts - the ASICMINER PT on BitFunder does not have a 0.5% fee on dividends. BTC-TC does, but they've currently waived it for now.

Do you have a link for the BTCT fee waiver? I couldn't find it quickly and just want to verify for correctness.

I'll update the article and also add that you can convert from PT to regular and back, on terms depending on the PT.

.b

[louong]

Do you have a link for the BTCT fee waiver? I couldn't find it quickly and just want to verify for correctness.

https://btct.co/security/ASICMINER-PT

Click on "Details":

• A management fee of X% will be levied on each dividend payment where X is determined by the number of shares currently managed by the pass through.  For under 1000 shares, the management fee shall be 3%.  For over 1000 shares, the management fee shall be 2%.  For over 3000 shares, the management fee shall be 1.5%.  For over 5000 shares the management fee shall be 1%.  For over 10000 shares the management fee shall be 0.5%.
• The management fee will be waived for the first 90 days of operation of this Pass Through.

This was added/changed from the original 5% dividend fee on Mar. 5 - you can see it under the "Motions" tab.

[furuknap]

This was added/changed from the original 5% dividend fee on Mar. 5 - you can see it under the "Motions" tab.

Ah, thanks, I didn't see the date on the motion.

Article updated!

.b

[burnside]

Quick note that on the BTC-TC one, the transfer fees are also waived.

I intend to bring up a new motion, I want the imports to be free permanently, and the other fees to be reduced, as they were setup when BTC was worth quite a bit less.  Crazy how a couple months changes things in btc-land. 

[louong]

Should we add the new micro-share passthroughs in this thread?

[furuknap]

Should we add the new micro-share passthroughs in this thread?

Yes!

[SebastianJu]

Should we add the new micro-share passthroughs in this thread?

Is there more than the TAT.ASICMINER on bitfunder? Ill add them once i know all of them.

[furuknap]

Should we add the new micro-share passthroughs in this thread?

Is there more than the TAT.ASICMINER on bitfunder? Ill add them once i know all of them.

Well, for those that prefer convenience over slow loading times and awkward third parties holding your money, there's one over on BTCT too.

https://btct.co/security/TAT.ASICMINER

.b

[SebastianJu]

Should we add the new micro-share passthroughs in this thread?

Is there more than the TAT.ASICMINER on bitfunder? Ill add them once i know all of them.

Well, for those that prefer convenience over slow loading times and awkward third parties holding your money, there's one over on BTCT too.

https://btct.co/security/TAT.ASICMINER

.b

So thats the only both securities that trade AM-Shares in parts?

I cant see a big difference in loading time. I load up the asicminer-pts occasionally and its looks more like btc-tc takes 1-2 seconds longer until the site is loaded fully. But its not a big difference at all.
Regarding the third party holding bitcoins... i didnt put this into the list because its done for security. bitfunder didnt want to risk holding bitcoins at their own website so they use weexchange that can put all their power to create a secure website. Im not sure which approach leads to more security at the end. btctc or bitfunders way...

[burnside]

Should we add the new micro-share passthroughs in this thread?

Is there more than the TAT.ASICMINER on bitfunder? Ill add them once i know all of them.

Well, for those that prefer convenience over slow loading times and awkward third parties holding your money, there's one over on BTCT too.

https://btct.co/security/TAT.ASICMINER

.b

So thats the only both securities that trade AM-Shares in parts?

I cant see a big difference in loading time. I load up the asicminer-pts occasionally and its looks more like btc-tc takes 1-2 seconds longer until the site is loaded fully. But its not a big difference at all.
Regarding the third party holding bitcoins... i didnt put this into the list because its done for security. bitfunder didnt want to risk holding bitcoins at their own website so they use weexchange that can put all their power to create a secure website. Im not sure which approach leads to more security at the end. btctc or bitfunders way...

OT, but your coins are just on weexchange instead of bitfunder and weexchange == ukyo == bitfunder.  Kind of like if I required you to keep your coins on bitfloor to use btc-tc.  Your coins are still on a site, on the internet, exposed to third party risk.

Arguing that any hacks on bitfunder would have reduced effect is also moot.  It just adds one step to the withdraw process once your hack has successfully ratcheted up your share count or balance.  (hack site, withdraw to weexchange, withdraw to local wallet.)

The weexchange requirement is more a marketing thing than a security thing.

[SebastianJu]

Should we add the new micro-share passthroughs in this thread?

Is there more than the TAT.ASICMINER on bitfunder? Ill add them once i know all of them.

Well, for those that prefer convenience over slow loading times and awkward third parties holding your money, there's one over on BTCT too.

https://btct.co/security/TAT.ASICMINER

.b

So thats the only both securities that trade AM-Shares in parts?

I cant see a big difference in loading time. I load up the asicminer-pts occasionally and its looks more like btc-tc takes 1-2 seconds longer until the site is loaded fully. But its not a big difference at all.
Regarding the third party holding bitcoins... i didnt put this into the list because its done for security. bitfunder didnt want to risk holding bitcoins at their own website so they use weexchange that can put all their power to create a secure website. Im not sure which approach leads to more security at the end. btctc or bitfunders way...

OT, but your coins are just on weexchange instead of bitfunder and weexchange == ukyo == bitfunder.  Kind of like if I required you to keep your coins on bitfloor to use btc-tc.  Your coins are still on a site, on the internet, exposed to third party risk.

Arguing that any hacks on bitfunder would have reduced effect is also moot.  It just adds one step to the withdraw process once your hack has successfully ratcheted up your share count or balance.  (hack site, withdraw to weexchange, withdraw to local wallet.)

The weexchange requirement is more a marketing thing than a security thing.

I was of the impression that the coins are only virtually at bitfunder but in reality weexchange is keeping them. So that weexchange can focus in being safe and bitfunder doesnt have to take the risk to keep them. Now im not sure whats better. But thats the reason why i didnt add it in the list. I dont know if the approach of btctc is better than the one bitfunder has. I cant judge.

[burnside]

An on-topic update.  

New terms are up on https://btct.co/security/ASICMINER-PT

Summary here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=148350.msg2064909#msg2064909

The tl;dr: Zero maintenance fees on the divs.  First transfer out each month is free.  All transfers in are free.

Cheers.

[SebastianJu]

Looks like there are 3 AM-100-securities right now. I will check them tomorrow and add them into the list. Then i will add the new rules with burnsides pt too. Only wait for an answer to the applying of fees rule.

[furuknap]

Regarding the third party holding bitcoins... i didnt put this into the list because its done for security. bitfunder didnt want to risk holding bitcoins at their own website so they use weexchange that can put all their power to create a secure website. Im not sure which approach leads to more security at the end. btctc or bitfunders way...

This cuts both ways; two entities mean potentially two points of failure where only one needs to be 'hacked'. There is still a single point of failure in terms of your money, though, so if you hold large sums of cash in wee exchange, you're still subject to the same risk.

As for speed, it has taken me two months to buy a single share at Bitfunder simply because my repeated attempts at setting up a wee exchange account has failed every time. I really dislike "Whoopsie, something went wrong, we won't tell you what" error messages, especially from a web site that at best looks like something half-done from the mid-90s.

Until BF finds a much better way of handling money, I'm staying away, which of course is sad for the companies trying to get funding there.

.b

[SebastianJu]

Regarding the third party holding bitcoins... i didnt put this into the list because its done for security. bitfunder didnt want to risk holding bitcoins at their own website so they use weexchange that can put all their power to create a secure website. Im not sure which approach leads to more security at the end. btctc or bitfunders way...

This cuts both ways; two entities mean potentially two points of failure where only one needs to be 'hacked'. There is still a single point of failure in terms of your money, though, so if you hold large sums of cash in wee exchange, you're still subject to the same risk.

As for speed, it has taken me two months to buy a single share at Bitfunder simply because my repeated attempts at setting up a wee exchange account has failed every time. I really dislike "Whoopsie, something went wrong, we won't tell you what" error messages, especially from a web site that at best looks like something half-done from the mid-90s.

Until BF finds a much better way of handling money, I'm staying away, which of course is sad for the companies trying to get funding there.

.b

Since surviving glbse i dont keep more btc than needed at such platforms. I buy shares and thats it. Dont let something lay around. The shares cant be really stolen.

Its sad but if a website is really secure you probably will only find out when it gets hacked. Otherwise its still uncertain. Thats why i cant judge hows security against hacks with btctc, bitfunder or weexchange.

[ThickAsThieves]

Could you add my passthroughs to this thread?

You can get fractional shares now:
https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.ASICMINER
https://btct.co/security/TAT.ASICMINER