The new design of BFL Single

[Quix]

Wait, what? I thought, chip for chip, BFL's chips seriously outperform the Avalon ones. Hence why Avalon uses 108 or something chips to achieve 60GH/s

Avalon actually uses 240 chips...

Number of chips is not a useful metric, you're discounting die size, transistor counts and many other factors.

Realistically, the important metrics are watts/hashrate and price. If one brand used 12 huge chips and the other 10,000,000 tiny chips but performed the same at the same price it wouldn't matter at all would it?

[computerparts]

Wait, what? I thought, chip for chip, BFL's chips seriously outperform the Avalon ones. Hence why Avalon uses 108 or something chips to achieve 60GH/s

Avalon actually uses 240 chips...

Number of chips is not a useful metric, you're discounting die size, transistor counts and many other factors.

Realistically, the important metrics are watts/hashrate and price. If one brand used 12 huge chips and the other 10,000,000 tiny chips but performed the same at the same price it wouldn't matter at all would it?

Displacement is also an important metric. It looks like 6 singles could fit in the same place as one Avalon.

[nathanrees19]

Number of chips is not a useful metric, you're discounting die size, transistor counts and many other factors.

Component count roughly correlates with unit production cost, which suggests that BFL could push prices down further than Avalon could.

But yes, I agree that right now J/H and $/H/s (is that equivalent to s$/H?) are more important, with a secondary focus on H/s/m³.

[smoothie]

I love to suck BFL cock

ohrly?

I don't know, you may be confusing me with the guy that's had (access to) a little single for a month...

lol backpedal time....see ya 

[PuertoLibre]

I still recall Inaba throwing crap at Avalon customers for the size of our units. Except we got them early (enough) and they have been hashing for a little over a month. They are on spec, they work (99% of the time) and they did what was promised.

Now the story with BFL is entirely different....
Products disappeared overnight, and all prices for new customers doubled:
The Jalapeno disappeared and now has evolved into a two chip monster. Don't ask him about the number of chips shortages to come and how that will affect people down the line. The Mini-Rig also disappeared.

Now Inaba is virtually silent on the power and "being green" issue. He probably does not want to tell his customers that each BFL product is an electric hog compared to the original specs. What he was always adamant would never happen to his products. Their profitability over the long term is now closer to that of an Avalon (or much less) with two key differences.

A) The Avalons came out ~on time~ so each customer has plenty of Cash or Bitcoins. The BFL ASIC customers in contrast have lost all that time as "unrecoverable funds" from each delay after delay in the face of increasing difficulty. Their customers are late to the game.
B) The Avalons are actually upgradeable. The Avalons are 66~74GH/s while the BFL's are stuck in nuetral at 60GH/s....we hope....
BFL's 65nm chips perform nearly as bad as 110nm chips.


Inaba is also silent on the fact that their product has grown larger in it's footprint by the day. The compact nature and selling point is all but gone.

Inaba is silent on "competitive GigaHash performance" upgrades owed to their customers. (BFL hampsters are getting 60Gh/s units while Avalon customers got nearly 70GH/s+) Which means BFL customers now have the inferior product.

I could go on, but you'd pretty much get the idea...

Why take it so personal? Because Josh honored you by your not ordering at BFL?  

Personal? I don't quite understand.

------------------------

Here is what happened shortly after I got my Avalon Hashing away at 67 to 74GH/s:

I realized that I should order something with ALOT more hashing power. I was about to invest 30k into a BFL Minirig. Keep in mind, I paid actual Fiat for my Avalon. I didn't just do what alot of miners did (as in charge up their credit cards nor take out a loan).

I paid money out from my own pocket and savings. It was my first mining rig. So it was a leap of faith to be honest. I looked over most products and decided on Avalon because it was one self contained unit. The BFL rig was a close second, but after witnessing Inaba/Josh and BFL Engineers queries, statements and attitude...they didn't look all that hot or right. This was back in October/September 2012.

Speed forward to almost the end of March. I decided after seeing my first miner racking up Bitcoins and watching the wallet fill up (and to be honest the price of BitCoins skyrocket) I decided I should buy one of the MiniRigs @ 1.5TeraHashes/s.

Problem. I had to clear the money through my family for such a large purchase. (I swear on Gods good name I am telling the Truth)

They were fine with it, then I mentioned Inaba's name. DAMN...

As soon as they heard that and they asked me if this was the notorious and infamous Inaba/Josh...they pulled the rug on that purchase. They asked me all the smart questions that everyone with common sense on this forum usually asks. Has this guy or his company shipped any units? My painful answer was a clear no.

Then I was asked if this was the guy in the CES video. I said yes, it was. Then they asked me why in the world I would order from this guy. I really only had one defense to go by, because he has promised to ship Minirigs of 1.5 TeraHashes/s. I explained that this was a good chunk of processing power at any mining pool. (They more or less understood the idea.)

The problem was, they didn't think Inaba would ship especially after several months. So they said "no way" not gonna happen. I couldn't get their approval.

------------------------

They instead asked me what was "Avalon" doing and if they couldn't buy "more modules" or more devices. I said they hadn't really mentioned much on the extra modules and at around that time the batches weren't open yet. No one was against buying more Avalons they just were rejecting the whole BFL idea.

In hindsight, I guess I was impulsive on that idea. I am glad I listened....about within the span of 10 days later, the Minirigs disappeared from BFL's website, replaced with an "OutofStock" message. Inaba then came out and said there were serious power issues. The Minirigs were going to be broken into several pieces. People did the calculations and came to the conclusion that a Minirig would take 8 to 10 kilowatts of power. More than is probably safe to run in a standard residence.

(Or risk getting a raided by the FBI or DEA for suspected pot growing from an abnormally high electric bill. It's an indicator they look for in case people don't know.)

So, as far as I can see, BFL entire product line fell apart....

Right now it is pretty much impossible to buy a Minirig. It is also impossible to get anything above a Jalapeno in the short term. So like it or not, I guess I will be ordering from Avalon once again. I am not as biased against BFL as most people think. I would buy from them if they fired Inaba for omni-potent incompetence and if they actually shipped in volume....well....and if the product actually remains stable over a short term of being in customers hands....which I think won't be the case as they are practically dev units at this point. (In my opinion)

====================

So the short story is, in my eyes, as well as in the eyes of others....BFL fell apart, raised their prices, and will probably be impossible to buy their high end devices...let alone the lower end ones.

This is the type of story where you have a rolling turd that just keeps getting bigger and bigger down hill. At each step BFL has always been one issue after another. To examine that for the last 9 months and not come to a conclusion that it is a bad buy in more ways than one....

It would be a great products to buy (well not really anymore) if it actually worked, and they actually delivered...but it just doesn't materialize en masse.

[PuertoLibre]

It also doesn't make much sense to buy a 60Gh/s miner at this point.

The profitability is going down at this point....so if I am going to buy something it has to be superior to 75Gh/s. BFL simply has no way of delivering that at this point. It will probably turn into May and they won't even be shipping the singles. (IMO)

No matter how I keep cutting this cake in my mind, it doesn't add up. I am not looking for "residual earnings" in BitCoins either. The BFL rigs are late to the game and don't make much sense anymore unless you buy multiple units. Only if you buy multiple units and somehow managed to get their old pricing would it make sense.

2.5k is a little much for a 60Gh/s miner at this late in the game. I am waiting on upgraded modules from Avalon. That is the only road I see that is worthwhile at this point.

[nathanrees19]

It also doesn't make much sense to buy a 60Gh/s miner at this point.

The profitability is going down at this point....so if I am going to buy something it has to be superior to 75Gh/s.

........or just buy two smaller units. If that's not economical, then the problem is hashrate per dollar which has nothing to do with the size of the units.

[Bitsaurus]

I can't believe I actually bought an ASIC from these guys.  Good thing I got my refund and put it towards Avalon Batch 3.

I do wish the BFL customers well, just want them to do well 2 months after I get my Avalons 

[computerparts]

Good thing I got my refund and put it towards Avalon Batch 3.

[opentoe]

I still recall Inaba throwing crap at Avalon customers for the size of our units. Except we got them early (enough) and they have been hashing for a little over a month. They are on spec, they work (99% of the time) and they did what was promised.

Now the story with BFL is entirely different....
Products disappeared overnight, and all prices for new customers doubled:
The Jalapeno disappeared and now has evolved into a two chip monster. Don't ask him about the number of chips shortages to come and how that will affect people down the line. The Mini-Rig also disappeared.

Now Inaba is virtually silent on the power and "being green" issue. He probably does not want to tell his customers that each BFL product is an electric hog compared to the original specs. What he was always adamant would never happen to his products. Their profitability over the long term is now closer to that of an Avalon (or much less) with two key differences.

A) The Avalons came out ~on time~ so each customer has plenty of Cash or Bitcoins. The BFL ASIC customers in contrast have lost all that time as "unrecoverable funds" from each delay after delay in the face of increasing difficulty. Their customers are late to the game.
B) The Avalons are actually upgradeable. The Avalons are 66~74GH/s while the BFL's are stuck in nuetral at 60GH/s....we hope....
BFL's 65nm chips perform nearly as bad as 110nm chips.


Inaba is also silent on the fact that their product has grown larger in it's footprint by the day. The compact nature and selling point is all but gone.

Inaba is silent on "competitive GigaHash performance" upgrades owed to their customers. (BFL hampsters are getting 60Gh/s units while Avalon customers got nearly 70GH/s+) Which means BFL customers now have the inferior product.

I could go on, but you'd pretty much get the idea...

Why take it so personal? Because Josh honored you by your not ordering at BFL?  

Personal? I don't quite understand.

------------------------

Here is what happened shortly after I got my Avalon Hashing away at 67 to 74GH/s:

I realized that I should order something with ALOT more hashing power. I was about to invest 30k into a BFL Minirig. Keep in mind, I paid actual Fiat for my Avalon. I didn't just do what alot of miners did (as in charge up their credit cards nor take out a loan).

I paid money out from my own pocket and savings. It was my first mining rig. So it was a leap of faith to be honest. I looked over most products and decided on Avalon because it was one self contained unit. The BFL rig was a close second, but after witnessing Inaba/Josh and BFL Engineers queries, statements and attitude...they didn't look all that hot or right. This was back in October/September 2012.

Speed forward to almost the end of March. I decided after seeing my first miner racking up Bitcoins and watching the wallet fill up (and to be honest the price of BitCoins skyrocket) I decided I should buy one of the MiniRigs @ 1.5TeraHashes/s.

Problem. I had to clear the money through my family for such a large purchase. (I swear on Gods good name I am telling the Truth)

They were fine with it, then I mentioned Inaba's name. DAMN...

As soon as they heard that and they asked me if this was the notorious and infamous Inaba/Josh...they pulled the rug on that purchase. They asked me all the smart questions that everyone with common sense on this forum usually asks. Has this guy or his company shipped any units? My painful answer was a clear no.

Then I was asked if this was the guy in the CES video. I said yes, it was. Then they asked me why in the world I would order from this guy. I really only had one defense to go by, because he has promised to ship Minirigs of 1.5 TeraHashes/s. I explained that this was a good chunk of processing power at any mining pool. (They more or less understood the idea.)

The problem was, they didn't think Inaba would ship especially after several months. So they said "no way" not gonna happen. I couldn't get their approval.

------------------------

They instead asked me what was "Avalon" doing and if they couldn't buy "more modules" or more devices. I said they hadn't really mentioned much on the extra modules and at around that time the batches weren't open yet. No one was against buying more Avalons they just were rejecting the whole BFL idea.

In hindsight, I guess I was impulsive on that idea. I am glad I listened....about within the span of 10 days later, the Minirigs disappeared from BFL's website, replaced with an "OutofStock" message. Inaba then came out and said there were serious power issues. The Minirigs were going to be broken into several pieces. People did the calculations and came to the conclusion that a Minirig would take 8 to 10 kilowatts of power. More than is probably safe to run in a standard residence.

(Or risk getting a raided by the FBI or DEA for suspected pot growing from an abnormally high electric bill. It's an indicator they look for in case people don't know.)

So, as far as I can see, BFL entire product line fell apart....

Right now it is pretty much impossible to buy a Minirig. It is also impossible to get anything above a Jalapeno in the short term. So like it or not, I guess I will be ordering from Avalon once again. I am not as biased against BFL as most people think. I would buy from them if they fired Inaba for omni-potent incompetence and if they actually shipped in volume....well....and if the product actually remains stable over a short term of being in customers hands....which I think won't be the case as they are practically dev units at this point. (In my opinion)

====================

So the short story is, in my eyes, as well as in the eyes of others....BFL fell apart, raised their prices, and will probably be impossible to buy their high end devices...let alone the lower end ones.

This is the type of story where you have a rolling turd that just keeps getting bigger and bigger down hill. At each step BFL has always been one issue after another. To examine that for the last 9 months and not come to a conclusion that it is a bad buy in more ways than one....

It would be a great products to buy (well not really anymore) if it actually worked, and they actually delivered...but it just doesn't materialize en masse.

It sounds like we all paid a shit load of money to BFL a long time ago only to have a few developers, BFL employees, family members making really good money off our own money we sent them months ago. Our money basically made some working units to some "preferred" people. They apparently are picking and choosing who gets what. How nice.

[aTg]

here are much bastard who's copying me ideas ...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177550.msg1849955#msg1849955

Here is a possible solution for minirig.

[mjsbuddha]

Yeah, the heat might still be enough to fry some eggs, too  

The single is still 25GHs is it? If so you would expect it to be around or under 150watts. My toaster is about 1,000 watts, so I would think you would be waiting quite a while for that toast to pop. 150watt is about the power consumption of a reasonable video card for mining, which can get away with a muffin fan to exhaust the warm air.


It will be interested to see what the power consumption is on 25GHs worth of these Avalon chips lots of DIY people are mad keen on in the other threads.

An easy bake oven is only 100 watts

[erk]

An easy bake oven is only 100 watts

My LED torch is only 1 watt, and your point is exactly?

[meowmeowbrowncow]

Think about Elden Tyrell's "Process invariant" metrics.  So, apparently, both Avalon and ASICMiner have designed an ASIC on an older process node that is more computationally efficient.


This is a bearish sign for BFL.  Especially in the fact that ASICMiner is already moving forward with their newer process node designs.



We all know who's full of BS and who's not now.  Re-structure your plans.

[mjsbuddha]

An easy bake oven is only 100 watts

My LED torch is only 1 watt, and your point is exactly?

My point is ,yes it has far less wattage then a toaster but it has the wattage of 1.5 easy bake ovens. You probably wont be able to make toast on one but you may be able to make some delicious tiny cakes They should use that as a selling point

[johnyj]

So the short story is, in my eyes, as well as in the eyes of others....BFL fell apart, raised their prices, and will probably be impossible to buy their high end devices...let alone the lower end ones.

This is the type of story where you have a rolling turd that just keeps getting bigger and bigger down hill. At each step BFL has always been one issue after another. To examine that for the last 9 months and not come to a conclusion that it is a bad buy in more ways than one....

It would be a great products to buy (well not really anymore) if it actually worked, and they actually delivered...but it just doesn't materialize en masse.

Thanks for the story, a potential MiniRig purchase   Hope Josh could read this 

Avalon has all the R&D people and manufacturer contacts in one place, BFL contracted out some part of their operation, an integrated  solution is always slower than a whole solution

But I really think it's good that they don't have MiniRig offering now, this product will kick the difficulty to moon and hurt almost everyone's profit, very bad 

[erk]

So the short story is, in my eyes, as well as in the eyes of others....BFL fell apart, raised their prices, and will probably be impossible to buy their high end devices...let alone the lower end ones.

This is the type of story where you have a rolling turd that just keeps getting bigger and bigger down hill. At each step BFL has always been one issue after another. To examine that for the last 9 months and not come to a conclusion that it is a bad buy in more ways than one....

It would be a great products to buy (well not really anymore) if it actually worked, and they actually delivered...but it just doesn't materialize en masse.

Thanks for the story, a potential MiniRig purchase   Hope Josh could read this 

Avalon has all the R&D people and manufacturer contacts in one place, BFL contracted out some part of their operation, an integrated  solution is always slower than a whole solution

But I really think it's good that they don't have MiniRig offering now, this product will kick the difficulty to moon and hurt almost everyone's profit, very bad 

I would cancel all mini rig orders if I were BFL. There is no way at 5watts/GHs that product will work unless you have 3 phase installed, or they get some wafers done with fabrication way smaller than 65nm. In either case it's back to the drawing board on that one. How much power can you pull from a typical US domestic power outlet?

[Sitarow]

So the short story is, in my eyes, as well as in the eyes of others....BFL fell apart, raised their prices, and will probably be impossible to buy their high end devices...let alone the lower end ones.

This is the type of story where you have a rolling turd that just keeps getting bigger and bigger down hill. At each step BFL has always been one issue after another. To examine that for the last 9 months and not come to a conclusion that it is a bad buy in more ways than one....

It would be a great products to buy (well not really anymore) if it actually worked, and they actually delivered...but it just doesn't materialize en masse.

Thanks for the story, a potential MiniRig purchase   Hope Josh could read this 

Avalon has all the R&D people and manufacturer contacts in one place, BFL contracted out some part of their operation, an integrated  solution is always slower than a whole solution

But I really think it's good that they don't have MiniRig offering now, this product will kick the difficulty to moon and hurt almost everyone's profit, very bad 

I would cancel all mini rig orders if I were BFL. There is no way at 5watts/GHs that product will work unless you have 3 phase installed, or they get some wafers done with fabrication way smaller than 65nm. In either case it's back to the drawing board on that one. How much power can you pull from a typical US domestic power outlet?

Mini rigs are not for your typical miner

[Littleshop]

Yeah, the heat might still be enough to fry some eggs, too  

The single is still 25GHs is it? If so you would expect it to be around or under 150watts. My toaster is about 1,000 watts, so I would think you would be waiting quite a while for that toast to pop. 150watt is about the power consumption of a reasonable video card for mining, which can get away with a muffin fan to exhaust the warm air.


It will be interested to see what the power consumption is on 25GHs worth of these Avalon chips lots of DIY people are mad keen on in the other threads.

An easy bake oven is only 100 watts

Interestingly so is a 100 watt light bulb.  Coincidence?   

[wrenchmonkey]

So the short story is, in my eyes, as well as in the eyes of others....BFL fell apart, raised their prices, and will probably be impossible to buy their high end devices...let alone the lower end ones.

This is the type of story where you have a rolling turd that just keeps getting bigger and bigger down hill. At each step BFL has always been one issue after another. To examine that for the last 9 months and not come to a conclusion that it is a bad buy in more ways than one....

It would be a great products to buy (well not really anymore) if it actually worked, and they actually delivered...but it just doesn't materialize en masse.

Thanks for the story, a potential MiniRig purchase  Hope Josh could read this  

Avalon has all the R&D people and manufacturer contacts in one place, BFL contracted out some part of their operation, an integrated  solution is always slower than a whole solution

But I really think it's good that they don't have MiniRig offering now, this product will kick the difficulty to moon and hurt almost everyone's profit, very bad  

I would cancel all mini rig orders if I were BFL. There is no way at 5watts/GHs that product will work unless you have 3 phase installed, or they get some wafers done with fabrication way smaller than 65nm. In either case it's back to the drawing board on that one. How much power can you pull from a typical US domestic power outlet?

About 2400 watts on a standard 20amp breaker. Of course, anybody who's serious about putting in a mining farm isn't going to just plug their shit into a standard outlet and walk away.

Residential power can easily throw down 200a @240v. or 48,000 watts, or enough to run 1600 jalapenos @30watts. There's literally ZERO chance of anybody over-drawing residential power with BFL equipment.

If you're talking about their 1500Gh units, even if you assume 5watts/Gh that's still only 62.5 amps. Plenty of residential hot tubs drawing WAY more than that...