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Author Topic: Are we makeing up time for the lost years between 2013 and now or pump & D  (Read 916 times)
jubalix (OP)
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May 01, 2017, 03:42:02 AM
 #1

I kinda feel on a weekly time frame, we are pumping a bit hard, but on a macro scale BTC seems to go above critical amounts such over 1 c, 1$, 100$, 1K, etc.

Are we catching up for the lost years, eg due for a 5 ~10K pump then fall back to 3K or something?


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May 01, 2017, 03:44:01 AM
 #2

Nobody here knows for sure, just lots of uninformed speculation.  Hitting a new ATH definitely bodes well for bitcoin, and I think the price gains we've seen can be sustained.  And I must tell you, it is nice to see old timers such as yourself chiming in.
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May 01, 2017, 04:48:07 AM
 #3

Are we catching up for the lost years, eg due for a 5 ~10K pump then fall back to 3K or something?

i doubt that can happen now. the market is too big and way too different for a pump and dump when you compare it with 2013 so we can't expect the same rise as 2013 either. back then one single exchange called Mt Gox dictate bitcoin price but now you can see there are a lot of exchanges and each having a very small portion of the market (less than 10%).
and i mostly hope that doesn't happen either. because a rise that big followed by years of dipping is not a good sign for bitcoin's future.
a slow and steady rise instead of a big one day profit any day.

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jubalix (OP)
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May 01, 2017, 05:17:25 AM
 #4

Nobody here knows for sure, just lots of uninformed speculation.  Hitting a new ATH definitely bodes well for bitcoin, and I think the price gains we've seen can be sustained.  And I must tell you, it is nice to see old timers such as yourself chiming in.

heh old timer......

I was giving lectures in my specialty electives of banking law back in 2006 about FIAT currencies and how it all worked, FIAT is not bad per se, as it allows capital and labour to come together and produce something where otherwise it would not be able to be done by creating a consensus in about and availability in the right time frame

but fiat does cause exponential inverted pyramid of debt issuance by the banks [money printing] as the only way to pay debt off is to issue more debt. Again not to bad because you can just keep printing.

However the bad comes in where most people loose access to the proportion of the money printing, and so become disenfranchised as thier buying power become less.

It discounts labour capital and innovation. This seems to occur by the structural nature of the banking system, land ownership, and barriers to entry to various licenses and appreciating assets.

The Banking system without competition endlessly increases its % of the buying power of Banks and friends.

When I was lecturing on this, you could see the eyes glazing over, the actual sections of the banking act would have probably meant more to the audience.

Its amazing how un~prepared people are to even grasp the nature of money itself, it just beyond their comprehension. Almost every accountant I have talked about BTC outright states they do not understand it and are generally hostile.

One banker was very very hostile acting insulted that this thing could have value.

Most people are so chained by the non information surrounding FIAT that is endlessly propagated ie action x costs $Y billion as if means anything anymore.

Even my self with the the precise background to embrace BTC, both legal and technical, came across it in 2011 and still did not buy in. I tried but it was too hard from where I was in the world to get hold of BTC at least 3 days solid trying to get money through.

When it went from about $25? back to $2 I was wow I am so glad I missed out on buying that. Because I still had not grasped the implications!

It was only in 2013 when I heard on you tube video about mining that people were fabing asics the penny dropped.....because I knew from my engineering you needed serious money to get a foundry to fab up chips for you. This was not short term.

You almost have to have an epiphany to understand BTC and even then have a mind prepared by some rather unique circumstances to understand it.

Fortunately nothing educates people like seeing other people make money, and this $30B market cap makes people look on and learn.

Partly because BTC tech itself is sui generis, and so unable to be described adequately by anything before it. Its sort like only seeing the edges of something in 3D poking through, but the thing actually exists in 4D. You mind has to be able to imply the consequences, shape and impact of the thing.

Satoshi also struggled to describe the implications of the tech....its so encompassing

Then you sort of go wow, I see.

A few important aspects of BTC tech as I see it;

[1] Much of Govt rendered redundant,
[2] New form of ad hoc corporation,
[3] records system done
[4] generate trust without trust
[5] no censorship,
[6] atomized decision makeing (well not some much with the network issues atm).
[7] For the first time in the history of man, you can get wealth by a pure idea.
[8] Before this you had to go to a venture capitalist/bank and be issued money, ultimately or physically take wealth by force. For the first time in history by the power a pure idea, released, in code, an anonymous person/entity accrued $1+ Billion. They never went to Banks, VC's anyone.
[9] Another aspect of this is you can now hold wealth and only give it up if another party can convince you on the merits of their ideas. This will force rational tax policy.
[10] Nations can now have their inefficiencies and un economic decisions on a global scale by an independent actor.
[11] Aspects of legal systems may be replaced
[12] No off switch
[13] Transparent proof of wealth held.
[14] The inversion where only open source code will be trusted, which locks out most of the closed propriety models of software and ideas, and the patent system, this make it near impossible for say Facebook, Google, or any govt entity to act in the sphere maliciously
[15] The difference being you can not alienate the capital of BTC. By this I mean Apple say can make a bad decision and misspend all its capital and go bankrupt. BTC the value can not be alienated from BTC on transferred. No other company acts in this way (though banks kind of do). BTC value can de diminished by poor dev or lack of appropriate dev though.
[16] immutable ledger by which to arrange your actions
[17] You cannot buy it out, a govt or private actor and not just buy out BTC all they can do is increase its value if they choose to print money to try and buy it all.


Overall it forces trust in a trust in a trust less system it tends to minimize entropy so will win out.

When I say BTC tech I refer not to just BTC but the 1000's of alts all clamoring to be No.1, which I believe is the biggest deterrent any state actor could face in shutting down BTC itslef, there are literally so many more alts which will be exponentially harder to control, it makes BTC look rather tame.

I also suspect some government agencies are likely to launch their own coins or buy into BTC, in attempt to become a little more independent, and will see it withing their remit or lessening costs and being self funding, which will be very interesting overtime

Now a tiny fraction of a Fraction hold BTC or alts, Alot have heard about BTC, but in means almost nothing to them. The room for growth is in the trillions. As the market cap goes up its more likely to go up because it becomes more useful to larger value allocation. When you can dump it x billion and not move the market.










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May 01, 2017, 05:32:14 AM
 #5

I kinda feel on a weekly time frame, we are pumping a bit hard, but on a macro scale BTC seems to go above critical amounts such over 1 c, 1$, 100$, 1K, etc.

Are we catching up for the lost years, eg due for a 5 ~10K pump then fall back to 3K or something?


i think its natural for bitcoin price that trying to increase from 1c, $1, $100, $1k and more because its affect with the people which involve in the bitcoin industry itself and from year by years, i am sure that there will be more people that is interesting with bitcoin and they want to invest their money in bitcoin. so i don't think that the price will getting down too deep but it might for just correction price and after that the price still increase more.

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May 01, 2017, 05:49:35 AM
 #6

At some point it looks like an weird growth that might finally end in danger. But in the other side it's nature happening because from the time of it from $1 it grew with up and down track and not in a flat manner. So as OP stated the same too can happen we suddenly spiking to $10k and stabilizing around $3k getting a good price increase.
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May 01, 2017, 06:43:19 AM
 #7

I kinda feel on a weekly time frame, we are pumping a bit hard,
yeah when you look at short term it certainly looks like a rapid rise which you may even call a mini pump. but when you look at the longer period and also know about the history of what happened you can see this is nothing more than coming back to normal price.
and by history i mean recent history. when price was already at $1250+ and we were rising towards $1300 and the FUD about BU split started and then the panic selling came. that slowed things down. so considering $1250 was THE price, then after a couple of months we are at $1360 and that is no such a big rise in my opinion.

Are we catching up for the lost years, eg due for a 5 ~10K pump then fall back to 3K or something?
if we are to see such a big rise then we need a much faster rise than this!

Weak hands have been complaining about missing out ever since bitcoin was $1 and never buy the dip.
Whales are those who keep buying the dip.
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May 01, 2017, 08:26:32 AM
 #8

I kinda feel on a weekly time frame, we are pumping a bit hard, but on a macro scale BTC seems to go above critical amounts such over 1 c, 1$, 100$, 1K, etc.

Are we catching up for the lost years, eg due for a 5 ~10K pump then fall back to 3K or something?



No I can not see us pumping BTC that much. Just to reach $3000 we would need another $23 billion moving into BTC right now.
To reach your numbers of $10k for instance there is much more money needed, probably by institutional investors. With an ETF this might be possible. But without I can not see this happening after halving in 2020.
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May 01, 2017, 08:57:39 AM
 #9

I kinda feel on a weekly time frame, we are pumping a bit hard, but on a macro scale BTC seems to go above critical amounts such over 1 c, 1$, 100$, 1K, etc.

Are we catching up for the lost years, eg due for a 5 ~10K pump then fall back to 3K or something?



No I can not see us pumping BTC that much. Just to reach $3000 we would need another $23 billion moving into BTC right now.
Not true at all.  The amount of liquidity on exchanges is mind-boggling small and the vast majority of Bitcoin isn't even in circulation.  It wouldn't even take a quarter of that to pump up the price that far unless loads of hodlers give up and start dumping their old Bitcoin on exchanges.

Basically, right now it's a "pump" in that it's pretty quick growth and could reverse due to weak fundamentals, but the reverse would be to about $1100 rather than really significantly down.

The reality is that Bitcoin will rise, but it'll take time.  A full-on pump and dump could happen at some point, but it seems more likely that it would happen with an altcoin instead and the dump wouldn't fully happen - you could imagine some whales getting into ETH or something.

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May 01, 2017, 09:20:28 AM
 #10

it is going to happen, $3k, $5k, $10k prices will come to pass easily and i don't know why some people are still skeptical and have a hard time seeing the growth.
but the question is always about the when and how of it. and my opinion is that we may see a faster rise soon with all the things that are going on these days but don't think we can call it "pump" and it won't be a big rise to $5k

Buying the dip...
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May 01, 2017, 09:31:07 AM
 #11

Not true at all.  The amount of liquidity on exchanges is mind-boggling small and the vast majority of Bitcoin isn't even in circulation.  It wouldn't even take a quarter of that to pump up the price that far unless loads of hodlers give up and start dumping their old Bitcoin on exchanges.

Yeah. People tend to forget that it's just a fraction of all bitcoins mined which are actually "alive" and circulating. In reality, numbers we should be considering in practical sense of market cap are definitely a lot smaller.
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May 01, 2017, 10:12:33 AM
 #12

Not true at all.  The amount of liquidity on exchanges is mind-boggling small and the vast majority of Bitcoin isn't even in circulation.  It wouldn't even take a quarter of that to pump up the price that far unless loads of hodlers give up and start dumping their old Bitcoin on exchanges.

Yeah. People tend to forget that it's just a fraction of all bitcoins mined which are actually "alive" and circulating. In reality, numbers we should be considering in practical sense of market cap are definitely a lot smaller.
Market cap is a meaningless number anyway when referring to currencies.  Bitcoin is very unusual and it shouldn't be treated like the shares of a company - it's different and it's impossible to tell how much is in use or how much is lost or so many other factors.  Some people just like their soundbites.

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May 01, 2017, 10:50:29 AM
 #13

Not true at all.  The amount of liquidity on exchanges is mind-boggling small and the vast majority of Bitcoin isn't even in circulation.  It wouldn't even take a quarter of that to pump up the price that far unless loads of hodlers give up and start dumping their old Bitcoin on exchanges.

Yeah. People tend to forget that it's just a fraction of all bitcoins mined which are actually "alive" and circulating. In reality, numbers we should be considering in practical sense of market cap are definitely a lot smaller.
Market cap is a meaningless number anyway when referring to currencies.  Bitcoin is very unusual and it shouldn't be treated like the shares of a company - it's different and it's impossible to tell how much is in use or how much is lost or so many other factors.  Some people just like their soundbites.

good points all BTC is sui generis, and market cap does not really capture its value.

Also the amount in circulation is so much smaller than the supply. I mean 1 mill seem to be gone via satoshi, and everyone else with any sense, has most of thier BTC locked in cold storage, or they will lose it on an exchange eventually. Then there is the natural attrition via lost HD's, deaths etc.

The more I think about it the more I think BTC is going 5K or 10K sooner that later, but there will be a few shakeout on the way.


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May 01, 2017, 12:04:03 PM
 #14

No I can not see us pumping BTC that much. Just to reach $3000 we would need another $23 billion moving into BTC right now.
To reach your numbers of $10k for instance there is much more money needed, probably by institutional investors. With an ETF this might be possible. But without I can not see this happening after halving in 2020.

uh, no. to get to $3000 would probably require 100-200 million max. 23 billion dollars of direct expenditure dropped into the market now would probably push it far over $15,000.
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May 01, 2017, 01:38:46 PM
 #15

No I can not see us pumping BTC that much. Just to reach $3000 we would need another $23 billion moving into BTC right now.
To reach your numbers of $10k for instance there is much more money needed, probably by institutional investors. With an ETF this might be possible. But without I can not see this happening after halving in 2020.

uh, no. to get to $3000 would probably require 100-200 million max. 23 billion dollars of direct expenditure dropped into the market now would probably push it far over $15,000.

Yepp you're right of course.My bad!
Big amount of coins is in cold storage and won't see the market.
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May 03, 2017, 04:21:35 PM
 #16

Not true at all.  The amount of liquidity on exchanges is mind-boggling small and the vast majority of Bitcoin isn't even in circulation.  It wouldn't even take a quarter of that to pump up the price that far unless loads of hodlers give up and start dumping their old Bitcoin on exchanges.

Yeah. People tend to forget that it's just a fraction of all bitcoins mined which are actually "alive" and circulating. In reality, numbers we should be considering in practical sense of market cap are definitely a lot smaller.
Yes no doubt but this highly increasing price makes many of us to think of what is going to happen to the bitcoin in the future. Though it is circulating in the market but still there is something fishy. Also it cannot be surely said that the market cap that is said to be smaller is actually the smaller one as to be pretended as the bigger.
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