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Author Topic: Last Time. In small words. Why 2MB impossible. Why Soft Fork. Why SegWit First..  (Read 6435 times)
hobbes
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May 08, 2017, 03:26:23 PM
 #161

OK, but I would call that a hardfork ('ignoring consensus orphaning mechanism').

soft forks do not need to result in a chain split
hard forks do not need to result in a chain split

soft involves just pool agreements to change something, thats just a network upgrade with one chain
hard involves nodes agreeing to change something, thats just a network upgrade with one chain

again
soft forks do not need to result in a chain split
hard forks do not need to result in a chain split

when some pools disagree and decide to intentionally ignore/ban/reject blocks/communication and the opposition continues. thats a chain split
when some nodes disagree and decide to intentionally ignore/ban/reject blocks/communication and the opposition continues. thats a chain split

soft can intentionally cause a split
hard can intentionally cause a split

and again
soft forks do not need to result in a chain split
hard forks do not need to result in a chain split

by thinking all "hard" actions = split.. and all "soft" actions = utopia.. that is taking softs best case scenario and hards worse case scenario. and avoid talking about the opposite
Please explain how a softfork would cause a chain split. A node ignoring/banning/rejecting blocks/communication means it diverted from the chain protocol which equals to a hard fork in my point of view.

hobbes
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May 08, 2017, 03:27:36 PM
 #162

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/69ypvg/segwit_situation_in_layman_terms/

franky1
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May 08, 2017, 07:43:12 PM
 #163

Please explain how a softfork would cause a chain split. A pool ignoring/banning/rejecting blocks/communication means it diverted from the chain protocol which equals to a chain split in my point of view.
FTFY

a hard chain split is about the nodes(users) doing something to cause 2 chains.
a soft chain split is about the pools doing something to cause 2 chains.

EG a soft chain split is even though nodes dont have to do anything. pools ignore each other purely based on a version number where the pools then decide to either join X or ignore X and build on Y

leading to the nodes that without doing anything end up following what they can happily accept


i just read your reddit summary and laughed my head off..

you do realise the only establishment causing drama are the portfolio of DCG (blockstream, btcc, coinbase, and more) with all their REKT campaigns, accusations, Pow killing proposals, deadlines, blackmails, bribes.

other non blockstream endorsed implementations are just plodding along not making threats and ven laughing at blockstreams attempt to get non-blockstream implementations to split, by simply saying 'no thanks w wanna stay as a peer network'

put it this way right now blockstream could make a 1merkle version that actually unites the community that can offer alot more features and set off a 6 month timeline. (afterall core think its ok to release 5 versions of software /year (0.13-0.13.1-0.13.2-0.14-0.14.1))

but blockstream motives are just to push the cludgy soft 2 merkle version and even if still veto'd in november will push on as the cludge version right upto the en of 2018 and try making it mandatory.
in short they cannot take no for an answer or dcide they should do something better

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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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May 08, 2017, 08:24:23 PM
Last edit: May 08, 2017, 08:34:34 PM by jbreher
 #164

But quadratically with block size meaning at 16MB blocks or so a 30% miner might still be able to block all nodes permanently.

No. As I explained (did you even read?), parallel validation routes around the quadratic hash time issue.

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More importantly, as miners who create blocks exhibiting this quadratic hash time issue have their blocks orphaned, they will be bankrupted. Accordingly, the creation of these blocks will be disincentivized to the point where they just plain won't be built.
For an attacker disrupting the network for a while might pay of via puts or rising altcoins or just by hurting Bitcoin.

No. As I explained (did you even read?), parallel validation routes around the quadratic hash time issue. A Bitcoin network with a significant proportion of miners implementing parallel validation can not be stalled by quadratic hash time.

Also let me remind you of the resource discussion further up. Of course it is relevant to this debate. Why do you oppose the technically sound and sustainable solution? Particularly as it happens to also bring other important benefits?

There was no resource 'discussion' upthread, an inadequate strawman of resource consumption was used to cast aspersions upon parallel validation.

I oppose The SegWit Omnibus Changeset mostly due to considerations other than segwit itself. Namely: the SF nature; the backdoor of versionbit changes; and the centrally-planned magic 4:1 ratio. But mostly because the 1.7x or 2x or whatever capacity increase it ends up being is too little, too late, and we'll just be back at this same argument before the year is up.

Anyone with a campaign ad in their signature -- for an organization with which they are not otherwise affiliated -- is automatically deducted credibility points.

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hobbes
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May 11, 2017, 08:40:26 AM
 #165

Please explain how a softfork would cause a chain split. A pool ignoring/banning/rejecting blocks/communication means it diverted from the chain protocol which equals to a chain split in my point of view.
FTFY

a hard chain split is about the nodes(users) doing something to cause 2 chains.
a soft chain split is about the pools doing something to cause 2 chains.

EG a soft chain split is even though nodes dont have to do anything. pools ignore each other purely based on a version number where the pools then decide to either join X or ignore X and build on Y

leading to the nodes that without doing anything end up following what they can happily accept
A node will always follow the longest chain of blocks it considers valid. What have pools to do with it? Once again ignoring version numbers sounds like a protocol violation = hard fork.

Quote

i just read your reddit summary and laughed my head off..
Glad I could entertain you  Smiley

Quote
you do realise the only establishment causing drama are the portfolio of DCG (blockstream, btcc, coinbase, and more) with all their REKT campaigns, accusations, Pow killing proposals, deadlines, blackmails, bribes.
Never heard about dcg before, quite interesting (though offtopic). Would be interesting to know how much of a stake they hold in all these companies listed on their website. Regarding your accusations I feel these rather come from the BU side (I read both r/btc and r/bitcoin).

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other non blockstream endorsed implementations are just plodding along not making threats and ven laughing at blockstreams attempt to get non-blockstream implementations to split, by simply saying 'no thanks w wanna stay as a peer network'
Sorry, I can't figure out what you are saying here.  Undecided



But quadratically with block size meaning at 16MB blocks or so a 30% miner might still be able to block all nodes permanently.

No. As I explained (did you even read?), parallel validation routes around the quadratic hash time issue.
Yes I did but I realize now I took a wrong train of thought at some point, sorry.

It's difficult to embrace a solution by someone with a track record as bad as BU recently if there is another more sustainable solution available by someone whose code I used without issue for years.

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I oppose The SegWit Omnibus Changeset mostly due to considerations other than segwit itself.
ok, this move the discussion forward.

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Namely: the SF nature;
As above: SF with hashrate majority safer than hardfork, replay protection is difficult

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the backdoor of versionbit changes;
From the other point of views it allows for easy upgrades. I can't imagine core could pull of anything that really goes against the will of the user majority. People would simply hard fork away. Same if they will not increase the block size if it is safely possible.

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and the centrally-planned magic 4:1 ratio.
Based on historic tx data and expected SW tx sizes I guess? This is concern trolling.

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But mostly because the 1.7x or 2x or whatever capacity increase it ends up being is too little
Better than nothing! And you are completely ignoring we need SegWit regardless of tx capacity.

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, too late,
Faster than anything else.

Quote
and we'll just be back at this same argument before the year is up.
Possibly but by then we have learned more about larger blocks in a safe way. Also we will know more about about lightning and how much time it will be able to buy us. This could make a difference of a factor of ten or more and buy us quite some time. Think of it as an opportunity. We can always hardfork later on.


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May 11, 2017, 08:45:07 AM
 #166

Bitcoin is fine, confirmed by price action. Segwit or BU will spook investors. Bitcoin is the gold standard of cryptocurrency, it is too big to change.

hobbes
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May 11, 2017, 12:38:12 PM
 #167

Bitcoin is fine, confirmed by price action. Segwit or BU will spook investors. Bitcoin is the gold standard of cryptocurrency, it is too big to change.
If we don't do anything we might as well bury Bitcoin right away. Altcoins will overtake quickly, just look at Litecoin.

As for the price action it could mean:
  • current investors have no idea what they are doing
  • current investors don't care
  • current investors are optimistic a good solution will be found in time
  • Bitcoin is undervalued despite the scaling discussion deadlock

I guess a mixture of the above...

franky1
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May 11, 2017, 12:49:18 PM
 #168


Quote
other non blockstream endorsed implementations are just plodding along not making threats and even laughing at blockstreams attempt to get non-blockstream implementations to split, by simply saying 'no thanks we wanna stay as a peer network'
Sorry, I can't figure out what you are saying here.  Undecided


lets kill 2 birds with one stone
1. blockstream wantis the network to split to give blockstream dominance
2. non blockstream implementations refusing to split.. wanting to keep the diverse implementations on an level/even playingfield

(gmaxwell is a founder and CTO of blockstream and also the lead dev of core and also the main moderator of technical discussions)

but in his own words
What you are describing is what I and others call a bilateral hardfork-- where both sides reject the other.

I tried to convince the authors of BIP101 to make their proposal bilateral ... Sadly, the proposals authors were aggressively against this.

The ethereum hardfork was bilateral, probably the only thing they did right--

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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
lurker10
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May 11, 2017, 12:49:36 PM
 #169

Bitcoin is fine, confirmed by price action. Segwit or BU will spook investors. Bitcoin is the gold standard of cryptocurrency, it is too big to change.
If we don't do anything we might as well bury Bitcoin right away. Altcoins will overtake quickly, just look at Litecoin.

As for the price action it could mean:
  • current investors have no idea what they are doing
  • current investors don't care
  • current investors are optimistic a good solution will be found in time
  • Bitcoin is undervalued despite the scaling discussion deadlock

I guess a mixture of the above...

No, Litecoin and alts aren't taking over the safe haven status of Bitcoin IF Bitcoin remains as is today. It's the safe haven status that investors are after. Buying coffee can be done with alts and credit card.

spartacusrex (OP)
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May 11, 2017, 01:53:31 PM
 #170

Bitcoin is fine, confirmed by price action. Segwit or BU will spook investors. Bitcoin is the gold standard of cryptocurrency, it is too big to change.
If we don't do anything we might as well bury Bitcoin right away. Altcoins will overtake quickly, just look at Litecoin.

As for the price action it could mean:
  • current investors have no idea what they are doing
  • current investors don't care
  • current investors are optimistic a good solution will be found in time
  • Bitcoin is undervalued despite the scaling discussion deadlock

I guess a mixture of the above...

^^ Totally agree with this.


No, Litecoin and alts aren't taking over the safe haven status of Bitcoin IF Bitcoin remains as is today. It's the safe haven status that investors are after. Buying coffee can be done with alts and credit card.

^^ Totally disagree with this.

Life is Code.
johnscoin
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June 24, 2017, 10:06:58 AM
 #171

3) Bigger Blocks would ALREADY be here IF we had just upgraded to segwit 6 fucking months ago. This ridiculous stalemate is what is causing this total cluster fuck of a situation.  Once we get SegWit.. oh mama.. ALL the clever things people have dreamed about can START to happen. AND Bigger Blocks!.. Safely.

..

CORE are NOT your enemy.


I think OP has realized that CORE are ACTUALLY your enemy now conveniently, given the fact that most Core members are against HF even months after SegWit.
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