Satoshi Nakamoto's stack

[Sithara007]

I have read somewhere in this forum that Satoshi is having around BTC980,000 in all of his wallets, which is worth some $1.4 billion as per today's exchange rates. But two important questions remains unanswered.

1. Is Satoshi Nakamoto alive?
2. If he is alive, then is he in the possession of the private keys to all of these wallets?

[Amph]

but the question is where are those coins now?

you need to look at all the new address that were generated between late 2009 and late 2010, the majority are made from satoshi, but i doubt he had 1M coins

the block reward was 50 and the diff was 1, 144 blocks per day, so only 7200 coins, basically he need to mine for more than 4 months alone to have 1M

[olushakes]

Hi Bitcoiners! i heard that Satoshi Nakamoto has more than 1M Bitcoins, and i became really curious to see the wallet with all those bitcoins! so i did some research and i couldn't find any info on which are the wallet adresses that hold such bitcoins, in fact i found out that the most bitcoins held in a wallet right now is about 300k bitcoins held by the FBI or some shit... so i would like to ask the community where is the address that holds such amount of bitcoins and what info we've got about what satoshi did with his coins, did he sold them? does he still have them? where are they? thanks for your help!
Love from Colombia <3

Even if you happen to get the address as you are looking for it, what will you use it for? You can't neither access it, neither can you convert it to yours. So in my opinion its a fruitless journey. Aside that, how do you expect someone as smart as Satoshi to actually have that amount and keep it in one location where it can be found easily like you have been researching, it means the authority would have gotten hold of him since time immemorial.

[Sithara007]

but the question is where are those coins now?

you need to look at all the new address that were generated between late 2009 and late 2010, the majority are made from satoshi, but i doubt he had 1M coins

the block reward was 50 and the diff was 1, 144 blocks per day, so only 7200 coins, basically he need to mine for more than 4 months alone to have 1M

It is possible, because there were hardly any others mining for long-term in 2009. A total of 2,625,000 coins were mined in 2009. It is not unfair to expect Satoshi to have mined some 35% to 40% of all these coins.

[electronicash]

satoshi i think is alive though. he just want to live life privately.

hei may have purposely forget all the logins of these wallet addresses as its like burning these coins. but it leaves a hacker a chance to solve a puzzle for a fortune. its almost impossible to hack those address but if someone can, coins are all his.

[The One]

? ? ? i really like bitcoin and i like learning about its past and i am really curious to know if satoshi still has them or he ended up selling them when they were 5$ because if i was him i would have been really tempted to sell 1M btc at 10 or 5 dollars it would have been a tough decision to make

I don't think he got an opportunity to sell his holding because if he had sold them in early stages than market could have crashed long time ago. 1 million+ coins are so much that if anybody sell them in one shot at current market, it will trigger a series of crash that won't be good for bitcoin.

And satoshi don't like to crash bitcoin economy due to his greed.

Greed? seriously? put your head in a toilet and stay there.

[cellard]

And satoshi don't like to crash bitcoin economy due to his greed.

There are many different logical possibilities, but the most obvious ones are these, to me:

A) Satoshi is a person
- he's dead and his heirs didn't know who he was
- he believes in bitcoin taking over the world's economy ; then it would be silly to sell his coins for a billion, when he can get a trillion and be "master of the world"
- he would have liked to sell them, but he doesn't know how to do so without giving up his anonymity: for sure, the exchange on which he sells the coins will know who he is, or to what bank account he withdraws.  He was already pretty paranoid in the old days.
- he didn't bother to keep the private keys ( <-- cannot believe this)
- he never had the keys himself, because he was working for someone.

B) this last point brings us to: Satoshi is an organisation.  In fact, the points are similar
- the association doesn't exist any more (for instance, the keys were in escrow, and the different signees don't agree to get together any more/are dead/are in prison /....)
- they are waiting for bitcoin to take over the world economy at which point they own a big part of it and will be the rulers of the world
- they don't know how to cash out without getting caught/found out
- on purpose, they didn't keep the keys, because they wanted to establish a system that would modify the economy/finance
- they were a group, doing this in command of a higher entity (a state, a rich family, a terrorist organisation, ...)

I would rule out B) in it's entirety. It's simply impossible that an organization remains coordinated enough that after 8 years there isn't a single leak of who or what satoshi was, and none of the members of the organization have moved a single coin.

My take is that A) satoshi was a single entity, and this entity either died or somehow lost his coins. Even if he believed in his creating 100% and knew BTC was going to be worth $1,000,000 each in 10 years, he would be too tempted to cash out some of them just in case. So unless he was already a multimillionaire and didn't care, it doesn't make much sense.

So either dead, or lost keys for me.

[Vilrex]

yeah it seems really strange he hasn't moved moved any coin since he started mining them... it makes me sad just to think that he lost the keys to all of those coins, imagine what he would be feeling today if he's alive...

(I started this post because i am really fascinated with bitcoins and i would like to learn a little more about satoshi not because i intend to steal them .-. satoshi deserves each one of the coins he mined)

[freebutcaged]

In my opinion to found the bitcoin adress with most bulk bitcoin hold in the blockchain​ network is very hard to find and if we will use a super computer then probably it will take time about 5-6 ( avrage) years , so here it will be more better to say the it is impossible to find out .
Secondly , Mr satoshi himself is the owner of the bitcoin network , so surely he will use best technology to store his bitcoin like cold storage , so that no one can see the transaction or no one can track them.for his bitcoin that he holds in his wallet .

Where have you been for almost a year? don't you know things like that?
I bet Satoshi is Jihan Wu imagine that.
He owns nothing in the code or in the network, he can't change anything even if he wanted to.
Satoshi has never spent any Bitcoins unless I missed that information.
After the first transaction made by him immediately all the hackers or and government agencies will start to track and locate him physically.

There is no best technology to say that someone could use and others can't, everything is open sourced and it's just a simple Bitcoin address.
There are currently some people trying to crack his addresses by collision tests to find private keys for addresses which hold coins.
It will not take 5-6 years to find those addresses but only a few seconds searching in blockchain explorers.

[leopard2]

When he ever gets released from Area 51, he will use these coins to buy Australia 

[European Central Bank]

where does this 1 million figure come from? i'm sure there are some other early miners who've never come out of the wood work.

[hardtime]

They 100% for sure aren't all in one wallet and nobody knows which coins are his. It's something you can speculate on but there will never be a solid answer. I honestly think the 1Million is a made up number based on nothing.

Yeah, I highly doubt he has this high a portion of all the Bitcoins that are and will be in existence at any given moment. I think investors would shy away from Bitcoin as they'd think that Satoshi could just crash the market at any moment if he was to reveal his identity and to sell all of / a majority of his bitcoins (As we know ALL wouldn't sell at once) at one time. I'm not going to say he doesn't have a lot of Bitcoin, as he probably has a good amount but NOTHING THAT HIGH.


Plus, after all this time do you really think he kept track of all of this? It'd be a bit insane to suspect someone would keep track of all the private keys for these addys.

that dude richer than rocafella

that dude richer than rocafella

[dinofelis]

And satoshi don't like to crash bitcoin economy due to his greed.

There are many different logical possibilities, but the most obvious ones are these, to me:

A) Satoshi is a person
- he's dead and his heirs didn't know who he was
- he believes in bitcoin taking over the world's economy ; then it would be silly to sell his coins for a billion, when he can get a trillion and be "master of the world"
- he would have liked to sell them, but he doesn't know how to do so without giving up his anonymity: for sure, the exchange on which he sells the coins will know who he is, or to what bank account he withdraws.  He was already pretty paranoid in the old days.
- he didn't bother to keep the private keys ( <-- cannot believe this)
- he never had the keys himself, because he was working for someone.

B) this last point brings us to: Satoshi is an organisation.  In fact, the points are similar
- the association doesn't exist any more (for instance, the keys were in escrow, and the different signees don't agree to get together any more/are dead/are in prison /....)
- they are waiting for bitcoin to take over the world economy at which point they own a big part of it and will be the rulers of the world
- they don't know how to cash out without getting caught/found out
- on purpose, they didn't keep the keys, because they wanted to establish a system that would modify the economy/finance
- they were a group, doing this in command of a higher entity (a state, a rich family, a terrorist organisation, ...)

I would rule out B) in it's entirety. It's simply impossible that an organization remains coordinated enough that after 8 years there isn't a single leak of who or what satoshi was, and none of the members of the organization have moved a single coin.

My take is that A) satoshi was a single entity, and this entity either died or somehow lost his coins. Even if he believed in his creating 100% and knew BTC was going to be worth $1,000,000 each in 10 years, he would be too tempted to cash out some of them just in case. So unless he was already a multimillionaire and didn't care, it doesn't make much sense.

So either dead, or lost keys for me.

I wasn't giving my personal opinion, but rather all the logically not totally implausible possibilities, from which we can then try to eliminate branches that are too much in disagreement with what is factually known.  I'm not entirely excluding "organization" however, because this may indeed be an explanation why the coins never moved: no single entity HAS the keys.  I agree with you that it cannot be a LARGE entity.  But 5 people or so, why not ?  5 people that are sworn together to become the rulers of the world and have the means to kill one another if ever someone fails ?   After all, how big is something like the Equation group ?  (I'm not suggesting they are the same, but of similar constitution).

That said, there is indeed no need for this to be a group: the work and the quality of the work are perfectly "deliverable" by a single relatively smart and competent person after all.

I'm also not entirely convinced of the idea that they will never move.  After all, you don't do all that work if you think it is shit, and will go nowhere.  You don't break your head to have cryptographic protection for centuries, if you think it will be forgotten 10 years from now.  As this stuff is perfectly designed to be a speculative asset with a price that "goes moon", and you think that this thing will take 20-30 years to go mainstream, why on earth would you expose yourself to being tracked earlier, if you can be the master of the world 10-20 years later ?  If you bet a coin will be of the order of a few million $ of today's worth, why on earth would you cash out on a measly exchange when it is thousand times below its value, and you expose your identity when it is not yet powerful enough to keep it safe at that moment.

I do not exclude that bitcoin is one of the biggest financial hold-ups in history, or at least, an attempt to it.  In fact, the potential to financial hold up is larger than anything that has ever been achieved by armies and politics: no single person has ever held 5% or more of the total financial system.  If the delusional dream of bitcoin comes true, namely, replacing the financial system, we have an entity that has more than 5% of the total system in hands and is entirely unknown.  Personally, I don't believe in it overtaking the financial system, but that was clearly not the PoV of the creator of the system.  So it looks to me like a perfectly logical explanation of why none of these coins have moved: they are waiting to rule the world.

It is this last potential aspect that makes me think rather of a group.  Why would an individual be interested in "ruling the world 20-30 years from now" ?  You can be dead.  You will be old (unless you are very young when you made it).  What's the point ?  However, an organisation with some "destiny", that's something else.  This is why I don't exclude the possibility of it being a group, even though the communications by Satoshi really sound like if he was just a dude in his basement.

[Amph]

but the question is where are those coins now?

you need to look at all the new address that were generated between late 2009 and late 2010, the majority are made from satoshi, but i doubt he had 1M coins

the block reward was 50 and the diff was 1, 144 blocks per day, so only 7200 coins, basically he need to mine for more than 4 months alone to have 1M

It is possible, because there were hardly any others mining for long-term in 2009. A total of 2,625,000 coins were mined in 2009. It is not unfair to expect Satoshi to have mined some 35% to 40% of all these coins.

not sure, according to this http://historyofbitcoin.org/ Hal was minign with satoshi very early, so you have already a competitor with satoshi

basically for all the 2009 there at least two mining, but no sign of other mining, if they really mined for an entire year before other joined then yes, he mined much mroe than 1M even accounting Hal there

[mdzahed134]

i have a lot to know about how much is deposite.i think if he is created btc so he has so many btc.

[franky1]

not sure, according to this http://historyofbitcoin.org/ Hal was minign with satoshi very early, so you have already a competitor with satoshi

basically for all the 2009 there at least two mining, but no sign of other mining, if they really mined for an entire year before other joined then yes, he mined much mroe than 1M even accounting Hal there

within a couple weeks of genesis there were atleast 5 people mining.

within 6 months a couple dozen atleast.
figures get more murkier after that.

yep even theymos was around early on (using sirius-m username)

if you want proof others were working on bitcoin in january 2009
Nicholas Bohm- http://satoshinakamoto.me/2009/01/25/re-bitcoin-list-problems/
hal finney - http://satoshinakamoto.me/2009/01/25/re-bitcoin-v0-1-released-2/

theres other names too. should anyone want to research it.
google is your friend

[cellard]

And satoshi don't like to crash bitcoin economy due to his greed.

There are many different logical possibilities, but the most obvious ones are these, to me:

A) Satoshi is a person
- he's dead and his heirs didn't know who he was
- he believes in bitcoin taking over the world's economy ; then it would be silly to sell his coins for a billion, when he can get a trillion and be "master of the world"
- he would have liked to sell them, but he doesn't know how to do so without giving up his anonymity: for sure, the exchange on which he sells the coins will know who he is, or to what bank account he withdraws.  He was already pretty paranoid in the old days.
- he didn't bother to keep the private keys ( <-- cannot believe this)
- he never had the keys himself, because he was working for someone.

B) this last point brings us to: Satoshi is an organisation.  In fact, the points are similar
- the association doesn't exist any more (for instance, the keys were in escrow, and the different signees don't agree to get together any more/are dead/are in prison /....)
- they are waiting for bitcoin to take over the world economy at which point they own a big part of it and will be the rulers of the world
- they don't know how to cash out without getting caught/found out
- on purpose, they didn't keep the keys, because they wanted to establish a system that would modify the economy/finance
- they were a group, doing this in command of a higher entity (a state, a rich family, a terrorist organisation, ...)

I would rule out B) in it's entirety. It's simply impossible that an organization remains coordinated enough that after 8 years there isn't a single leak of who or what satoshi was, and none of the members of the organization have moved a single coin.

My take is that A) satoshi was a single entity, and this entity either died or somehow lost his coins. Even if he believed in his creating 100% and knew BTC was going to be worth $1,000,000 each in 10 years, he would be too tempted to cash out some of them just in case. So unless he was already a multimillionaire and didn't care, it doesn't make much sense.

So either dead, or lost keys for me.

I wasn't giving my personal opinion, but rather all the logically not totally implausible possibilities, from which we can then try to eliminate branches that are too much in disagreement with what is factually known.  I'm not entirely excluding "organization" however, because this may indeed be an explanation why the coins never moved: no single entity HAS the keys.  I agree with you that it cannot be a LARGE entity.  But 5 people or so, why not ?  5 people that are sworn together to become the rulers of the world and have the means to kill one another if ever someone fails ?   After all, how big is something like the Equation group ?  (I'm not suggesting they are the same, but of similar constitution).

That said, there is indeed no need for this to be a group: the work and the quality of the work are perfectly "deliverable" by a single relatively smart and competent person after all.

I'm also not entirely convinced of the idea that they will never move.  After all, you don't do all that work if you think it is shit, and will go nowhere.  You don't break your head to have cryptographic protection for centuries, if you think it will be forgotten 10 years from now.  As this stuff is perfectly designed to be a speculative asset with a price that "goes moon", and you think that this thing will take 20-30 years to go mainstream, why on earth would you expose yourself to being tracked earlier, if you can be the master of the world 10-20 years later ?  If you bet a coin will be of the order of a few million $ of today's worth, why on earth would you cash out on a measly exchange when it is thousand times below its value, and you expose your identity when it is not yet powerful enough to keep it safe at that moment.

I do not exclude that bitcoin is one of the biggest financial hold-ups in history, or at least, an attempt to it.  In fact, the potential to financial hold up is larger than anything that has ever been achieved by armies and politics: no single person has ever held 5% or more of the total financial system.  If the delusional dream of bitcoin comes true, namely, replacing the financial system, we have an entity that has more than 5% of the total system in hands and is entirely unknown.  Personally, I don't believe in it overtaking the financial system, but that was clearly not the PoV of the creator of the system.  So it looks to me like a perfectly logical explanation of why none of these coins have moved: they are waiting to rule the world.

It is this last potential aspect that makes me think rather of a group.  Why would an individual be interested in "ruling the world 20-30 years from now" ?  You can be dead.  You will be old (unless you are very young when you made it).  What's the point ?  However, an organisation with some "destiny", that's something else.  This is why I don't exclude the possibility of it being a group, even though the communications by Satoshi really sound like if he was just a dude in his basement.

There's the risk of the quantum attack on old addresses that never moved, as pointed by theymos which proposed getting rid of those coins, which I think it's insane even if it sucks that the government may steal satoshi's coins in the future (or whoever is first able to crack those). Well, good for them, it will just mean they are bigger investors in bitcoin. Whoever is paying attention and cares will have their bitcoin safe against any cryptographic attacks. There will always be people taking care of the development of bitcoin so we will always have it protected and up to date against any exploits. You can trust bitcoin more than banks getting cracked.

[dinofelis]

There's the risk of the quantum attack on old addresses that never moved, as pointed by theymos which proposed getting rid of those coins, which I think it's insane even if it sucks that the government may steal satoshi's coins in the future (or whoever is first able to crack those). Well, good for them, it will just mean they are bigger investors in bitcoin. Whoever is paying attention and cares will have their bitcoin safe against any cryptographic attacks. There will always be people taking care of the development of bitcoin so we will always have it protected and up to date against any exploits. You can trust bitcoin more than banks getting cracked.

A quantum attack on a hash is not very easy, compared to a quantum attack on public key crypto (RSA, Diffie-Hellman, or EC style).  A quantum attack on a hashed value still takes 2^(n/2) quantum iterations (so 2^80 for one single address).  As a quantum computer is a very delicate *analogue* machine, there's no reason to think that 2^80 iterations on a quantum machine will be faster than 2^80 iterations on a classical cluster (on the contrary).

On the other hand, a quantum attack on a public key takes about 3n iterations, so all elliptic curve, or factoring stuff is essentially dead.

There's a way, way way bigger risk for addresses that don't move: a soft fork fading them out.  In fact, if segwit were activated, and later, one would decide that non-segwit addresses are invalid beyond block NN, Satoshi would have no choice but to move them, or lose them.
I fact, that's one of the reasons to be favourable for segwit: that this Satoshi's stash burden is finally cleared out.  There's a still bigger risk, of course: that is that bitcoin goes like black tulips.  The cryptographic issues with bitcoin are not on the top list of its potential failures.

[franky1]

A quantum attack on a hash is not very easy, compared to a quantum attack on public key crypto (RSA, Diffie-Hellman, or EC style).  A quantum attack on a hashed value still takes 2^(n/2) quantum iterations (so 2^80 for one single address).  As a quantum computer is a very delicate *analogue* machine, there's no reason to think that 2^80 iterations on a quantum machine will be faster than 2^80 iterations on a classical cluster (on the contrary).

On the other hand, a quantum attack on a public key takes about 3n iterations, so all elliptic curve, or factoring stuff is essentially dead.

put simply
sha is a very binary heavy puzzle
ECDSA if very vector heavy puzzle

quantum computers can play with vectors easily compared to binary.
trying to solve a binary puzzle with a non binary method and then have the result back in binary is not as efficient use of quantum.

some have estimated that solving a binary logic problem with quantum results in only a 2x efficiency. where as a vector logic problem can be something like 256x efficient

[Xester]

Hi Bitcoiners! i heard that Satoshi Nakamoto has more than 1M Bitcoins, and i became really curious to see the wallet with all those bitcoins! so i did some research and i couldn't find any info on which are the wallet adresses that hold such bitcoins, in fact i found out that the most bitcoins held in a wallet right now is about 300k bitcoins held by the FBI or some shit... so i would like to ask the community where is the address that holds such amount of bitcoins and what info we've got about what satoshi did with his coins, did he sold them? does he still have them? where are they? thanks for your help!
Love from Colombia <3

Satoshi Nakamoto is very sensitive and is also vigilant thus he want to be secured always. He is not keeping all of his coins in one wallet to protect it from hackers and invaders that may come and get it. Aside from that to keep his identity hidden he kept bitcoin in multiple wallets to avoid being monitored and traced by people. Satoshi is wise and he is spending his bitcoins right now and enjoying the profits.