Casascius selling direct again

[stereotype]

This is for bitcl1234oinfever and it is not meant to be sarcastic in any way.

From my experience (and I see it in Mike's comments) it is really hard to put the correct value on your own product.  You want people to buy but you also want to make sure you are maximizing your own value.  It is really easy to make incorrect assumptions about what people are thinking and the hardest customers to read are the ones who did not buy anything.  There are so many reasons to not buy something, most of which you have no hope of addressing.

Now I could have just sent a message to Mike myself about my concerns but the issue with that is I am one data point with my own whims and fancies and you can't just cater to one data point.  I thought I would create this thread to consolidate feedback from multiple people.  I was fully expecting some people to chime in saying, "no, this actually works and here is how."  I was also expecting people to chime in with varying levels of emotional baggage.  Whatever, it is all feedback and I am pretty sure Mike is the kind of guy who knows how to parse and use feedback.  This stuff is gold for a business.

In any case, I hope that Mike is able to use this.  For me, his rolls of coins don't make mathematical sense to purchase as a wholesaling option.  I think others have agreed.  I am sure Mike has other feedback in the purchase rate of the rolls.

Well put.

[TheSwede75]

+ I am routinely selling non-collector (2012/2013) casascius for about the following:

BTC1 = 1.50
BTC5 = 6
BTC25 (2011 but with correct hologram) = 28.5

I am interested in ordering a BTC1 coin for BTC1.50 if it's including shipping (US). Feel free to PM me details, order wallet address and anything else I need to know.

[rpietila]

+ I am routinely selling non-collector (2012/2013) casascius for about the following:

BTC1 = 1.50
BTC5 = 6
BTC25 (2011 but with correct hologram) = 28.5

I am interested in ordering a BTC1 coin for BTC1.50 if it's including shipping (US). Feel free to PM me details, order wallet address and anything else I need to know.

No it's otc only. You can buy one (2013 cas. BTC1) from me for BTC1.7998 incl shipping to US. But don't order from me, I will always be the most expensive dealer to order anything from.  Except silver, that is cheap.
Send me PM and pay to:
17neXTeRQswdV1Hr6csmssJL2HpFz5bGoi

if still interested although price is high.

[KarlChappe]

If I make an international order. Do I have to pay tax in addition of this price?
I think so but I'd like to be sure.

[KarlChappe]

If I make an international order. Do I have to pay tax in addition of this price?
I think so but I'd like to be sure.

From Casascius or from me?

I will send to you in cardboard cover, in a registered letter (2011 - insured letter). I don't think you have a realistic chance to pay taxes, but of course if you have to, you can volunteer to do it according to your legislation.

From Casascius Sir

[casascius]

The issue with me is I was involved in negotiations with him before he moved up the prices. He knew in Feb I was trying to buy his coins and was waiting for his new .5 BTC to place my large order. He could have told me he was going to do something different and that I should order then but he did not.

So yeah, I won't be buying, hell right now I can't. He never sent me the BTC payment address he asked me to wait for because he said his site might get hacked. And now it is not even listed on his site so I can't even buy the unsafe way.

Fundamentally I believe in honoring one's commitments and I recognize the frustration.  I didn't know I was going to do something different with my products - something different had to happen because the worldwide interest in Bitcoin shot up through the roof the day Cyprus started talking haircuts.

Part of me says I should go ahead and honor the February price and just simply accept the deal now at the prior price and chalk it up to simply me being slow (something I readily admit).

If I did that though, I thought I might point out that you would actually be paying more than I would be charging for the coin now.  I mean, BTC shot up 10x, and yet I haven't raised my markup on the gold coin 10x, and at any price I'd charge today I'd be getting 1/10 the BTC in exchange for my gold, meanwhile the reason for both increasing is the same: worldwide interest in bitcoins.  So, in effect, by me not taking your money in February, I have foregone a potential big gain, as you have actually enjoyed the opportunity for its value to appreciate tenfold in your wallet instead of mine, before expressing your frustration that I have failed to deliver your coin at the negotiated price.  I'm not going to be comparing February's bitcoin price to February's gold spot price and charging you that today... you'd condemn me as crazy.  While my failure to stay engaged and complete the deal we were discussing is not excusable, are the circumstances really that lousy and have I really left you with the short end of the stick to the point the total disaffection you're displaying here does me justice?

Looking forward to seeing you the next time we encounter one another regardless.

[casascius]

In any event, and like i said in his thread, theres a risk of damaging brand Casascius. The latest actions, for me, just chip away at the magic, and i say that with huge regret.  
 

I don't want the magic to die either.  This is how the problem looks in my mind: what kills the magic more, being eternally out of stock, or having a price most can't afford?

I put the price on my website intending to either get orders, or not get orders and be forced to lower it or do auctions.  This isn't me trying to jerk you guys around - discovering the market price is an essential function of a sustainable market.  Nobody is complaining when people put in BTC sell orders on MtGox for $500 $1000 or $1000000, everyone recognizes that these prices simply won't get paid until the market decides they are correct.  Me doing the same is nothing wrong.

I am sure there are many watching this thread who will be disappointed to know that I have received paid orders at the listed price for a number of rolls in the double digits (in other words, at least 10) in the day and a half it's been listed.  So, the market is saying, at least for the time being, that that's an acceptable price.  Nobody knows what the future holds and maybe this was pent up demand that will wane, I can't know for sure.  But I plan to hand-make coins at the same rate I've always been making them, and since I can't do much with them just having them sit in inventory, will lower the price if they stop selling at the listed price, all while I look into automation and hiring to increase the possibility for more output.  Scaling this is something I think would be the best duty I could ever fulfill with the extra windfall the higher market prices bring.  Meanwhile, I anticipate competition...I'm not doing anything to discourage it...(other than insist they do a damn good job and not to give phyiscal bitcoins a bad name).

[JustJake]

Mike, I don't know that anyone was expecting you to comment.  This thread was data for you.  But thank you for commenting.  In the end the real data point is sales and it is definitely interesting that you are transparent about that with us.  I am glad you are still moving coin.  If you are still just keeping up with demand then more power to you.  I will be watching prices on your site and watching for auctions as I am definitely interested in getting more of your product.

I find it funny how demand can "kill the magic" just as fast as anything else.  In our heart of hearts we are all hipsters that remember the good old days before these noob trend followers with money to spare came in and ruined it for the rest of us.  You hear me Johnny California?!  Stay out of Austin!

[bitcl1234oinfever]

Mike, I don't know that anyone was expecting you to comment.  This thread was data for you.  But thank you for commenting.  In the end the real data point is sales and it is definitely interesting that you are transparent about that with us.  I am glad you are still moving coin.  If you are still just keeping up with demand then more power to you.  I will be watching prices on your site and watching for auctions as I am definitely interested in getting more of your product.

I find it funny how demand can "kill the magic" just as fast as anything else.  In our heart of hearts we are all hipsters that remember the good old days before these noob trend followers with money to spare came in and ruined it for the rest of us.  You hear me Johnny California?!  Stay out of Austin!

So, thats your problem!? Others are coming onto "your" turf and you dont like it that others who have money and want to make money are buying from Mike and reselling them to the "noob trend followers with money to spare"?  The "rest of us", as you stated, I assume had the market cornered and were the only people who had the "goods" and were making a KILLING. Maybe not you per se, but others here who have posted. Now that Mike has opened up the vault door for others to buy from, it's rubbed some people the wrong way. Competition is great. Monopolies die hard and fast.....

It's a shame, but them are the facts of life.............Again, no offense to you or others. I applaud Mike in giving myself, Joe Blow, and Harry the Hippo, the opportunity to buy DIRECTLY from him. I can store them like others have in a vault for 50 years or re-sell them via a # of places online or to local people in my area. The choice is ours, thats what makes it great!

[casascius]

So, thats your problem!? Others are coming onto "your" turf and you dont like it that others who have money and want to make money are buying from Mike and reselling them to the "noob trend followers with money to spare"?  The "rest of us", as you stated, I assume had the market cornered and were the only people who had the "goods" and were making a KILLING. Maybe not you per se, but others here who have posted. Now that Mike has opened up the vault door for others to buy from, it's rubbed some people the wrong way. Competition is great. Monopolies die hard and fast.....

It's a shame, but them are the facts of life.............Again, no offense to you or others. I applaud Mike in giving myself, Joe Blow, and Harry the Hippo, the opportunity to buy DIRECTLY from him. I can store them like others have in a vault for 50 years or re-sell them via a # of places online or to local people in my area. The choice is ours, thats what makes it great!

I insist on minimum order quantities so as to differentiate resellers from individuals wanting to collect a coin... I don't have the resources to go into an in-depth evaluation as to who will do what witih their coins, nor to police anyone to make sure they are doing what they claimed they are doing.  I am sticking to a policy that I will not sell under 50 coins to anybody at a time, and this is a deliberate decision to make resale sustainable.  Take a deep breath though... the whole Bitcoin space is still such an open land grab it doesn't make sense to be worried about turf.

[JustJake]

So, thats your problem!? Others are coming onto "your" turf and you dont like it that others who have money and want to make money are buying from Mike and reselling them to the "noob trend followers with money to spare"?  The "rest of us", as you stated, I assume had the market cornered and were the only people who had the "goods" and were making a KILLING. Maybe not you per se, but others here who have posted. Now that Mike has opened up the vault door for others to buy from, it's rubbed some people the wrong way. Competition is great. Monopolies die hard and fast.....

It's a shame, but them are the facts of life.............Again, no offense to you or others. I applaud Mike in giving myself, Joe Blow, and Harry the Hippo, the opportunity to buy DIRECTLY from him. I can store them like others have in a vault for 50 years or re-sell them via a # of places online or to local people in my area. The choice is ours, thats what makes it great!

Ha!  You could find a deep end to go off of in a baby pool.  Is English your first language?  If not all is excused because it seems you are not picking up on the colloquialisms.  Everything you are complaining about follows the phrase "in our heart of hearts" which implies self reflection and is best displayed through hyperbole.  I was making fun of stereotypes.  Something that might be evident if any of my previous posts or even the first part of that post was taken into account.

[stereotype]

In any event, and like i said in his thread, theres a risk of damaging brand Casascius. The latest actions, for me, just chip away at the magic, and i say that with huge regret.  
 

I don't want the magic to die either.  This is how the problem looks in my mind: what kills the magic more, being eternally out of stock, or having a price most can't afford?

I put the price on my website intending to either get orders, or not get orders and be forced to lower it or do auctions.  This isn't me trying to jerk you guys around - discovering the market price is an essential function of a sustainable market.  Nobody is complaining when people put in BTC sell orders on MtGox for $500 $1000 or $1000000, everyone recognizes that these prices simply won't get paid until the market decides they are correct.  Me doing the same is nothing wrong.

I am sure there are many watching this thread who will be disappointed to know that I have received paid orders at the listed price for a number of rolls in the double digits (in other words, at least 10) in the day and a half it's been listed.  So, the market is saying, at least for the time being, that that's an acceptable price.  Nobody knows what the future holds and maybe this was pent up demand that will wane, I can't know for sure.  But I plan to hand-make coins at the same rate I've always been making them, and since I can't do much with them just having them sit in inventory, will lower the price if they stop selling at the listed price, all while I look into automation and hiring to increase the possibility for more output.  Scaling this is something I think would be the best duty I could ever fulfill with the extra windfall the higher market prices bring.  Meanwhile, I anticipate competition...I'm not doing anything to discourage it...(other than insist they do a damn good job and not to give phyiscal bitcoins a bad name).

Once again, thanks for the transparent response, particularly, the paid sales mentioned. I don't expect to find out the answer, but i wonder who that 'market' was/is, who think that is current fair value. Coming from a very small scale re-sellers point of view and experience, the retail market appears to have a cut off point at x2 face value (UK), where x1.6/7 sees decent conversions. So maybe there is a new floor in the price of Casascius coins, or maybe those orders are from corporate interests from recent publicity, or "these noob trend followers with money to spare" which JustJake mentioned above. Point being, the latter two 'markets' are distorted and/or what rpietila said earlier....elite.
If you are considering the wider Joe Public retail market, then you will understand that some interested re-sellers are feeling squeezed out.

If you do intend to scale up production, you need reliable, and consistent re-sellers, where they take care of price, and you worry about reliable and quality manufactured supply. Thats how healthy symbiotic markets work, and it works for the benefit of all.

Hey, we all have our own agendas, and i know nothing.

[stereotype]

So, thats your problem!? Others are coming onto "your" turf and you dont like it that others who have money and want to make money are buying from Mike and reselling them to the "noob trend followers with money to spare"?  The "rest of us", as you stated, I assume had the market cornered and were the only people who had the "goods" and were making a KILLING. Maybe not you per se, but others here who have posted. Now that Mike has opened up the vault door for others to buy from, it's rubbed some people the wrong way. Competition is great. Monopolies die hard and fast.....

It's a shame, but them are the facts of life.............Again, no offense to you or others. I applaud Mike in giving myself, Joe Blow, and Harry the Hippo, the opportunity to buy DIRECTLY from him. I can store them like others have in a vault for 50 years or re-sell them via a # of places online or to local people in my area. The choice is ours, thats what makes it great!

Ha!  You could find a deep end to go off of in a baby pool.  Is English your first language?  If not all is excused because it seems you are not picking up on the colloquialisms.  Everything you are complaining about follows the phrase "in our heart of hearts" which implies self reflection and is best displayed through hyperbole.  I was making fun of stereotypes.  Something that might be evident if any of my previous posts or even the first part of that post was taken into account.

JustJake. Your comments are lost on me, mate. Sorry.

[bitcl1234oinfever]

So, thats your problem!? Others are coming onto "your" turf and you dont like it that others who have money and want to make money are buying from Mike and reselling them to the "noob trend followers with money to spare"?  The "rest of us", as you stated, I assume had the market cornered and were the only people who had the "goods" and were making a KILLING. Maybe not you per se, but others here who have posted. Now that Mike has opened up the vault door for others to buy from, it's rubbed some people the wrong way. Competition is great. Monopolies die hard and fast.....

It's a shame, but them are the facts of life.............Again, no offense to you or others. I applaud Mike in giving myself, Joe Blow, and Harry the Hippo, the opportunity to buy DIRECTLY from him. I can store them like others have in a vault for 50 years or re-sell them via a # of places online or to local people in my area. The choice is ours, thats what makes it great!

Ha!  You could find a deep end to go off of in a baby pool.  Is English your first language?  If not all is excused because it seems you are not picking up on the colloquialisms.  Everything you are complaining about follows the phrase "in our heart of hearts" which implies self reflection and is best displayed through hyperbole.  I was making fun of stereotypes.  Something that might be evident if any of my previous posts or even the first part of that post was taken into account.

JustJake. Your comments are lost on me, mate. Sorry.

PHEWWWW!!!, and I thought it was just me!!! and YES, English is my 1st and ONLY language!!!! Again, I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone on here. We all have our own opinions and viewpoints. I will readily admit one thing: I WAS NOT AN ENGLISH MAJOR, NOR WILL I EVER BE OR PROFESS TO BE!!!!! LOL! I like you JUSTJAKE!

[Phil21]

Fun thread

Kudos to Mike for tying to capture as much value as possible from his product for himself.  This is great, and he's the person (not resellers) everyone here should be wanting the most success for.

That said, the current website pricing is out of my market range.  I felt the previous auctions of 55-57 btc per 1btc roll were priced about right (that's around $15 per coin above spot price atm) but others are going to put their value where they feel it should be.  Right now that is higher than I think it is, thus I'll wait for the price to drop or do without.  Certainly with website pricing I couldn't get my money back reselling them in-person to friends/co-workers as I would like to do.

Pretty simple stuff here.

Mike - great job on these!  You are an extremely valuable part of the Bitcoin "movement" and when I had multiple random family members who've just heard of bitcoin ask me about the physical pieces, I realized just how important this service actually is and decided I need to help support this when possible.

[JustJake]

I realized that I said "make fun of stereotypes" not realizing that there was someone posting on here with the handle "stereotype".  That was not directed at you man.

I think that the crux of what is going on is that Mike is not really set up to supply merchants with a wholesale model.  He just does not have the capacity to do that right now based on demand.  What he is really doing is whatever he can to keep his head above water and maintain quality service and product.  Raise prices and force quantity to lower his customer count and make sure he is not spending all his time shipping.  This is exactly what he should be doing and the only real problem is that everyone is using the misnomer "wholesale" and we carry our own understanding of the concept of wholesaler into our expectations.

Mike is not a wholesaler unless he can scale supply or the market proves that it will bear the individual coin markup to justify Mike's markup as reasonable for a wholesale model.  So really what it may boil down to is we need to stop appending the label of "wholesale" to what Mike is doing.  We want him to be a wholesaler, but that does not mean he is.

As a side note, I find it interesting when people convert bitcoin to $ when talking about the markup.  Mike absolutely has it right.  It is a bitcoin product purchased with bitcoin.  You can't fail to increase value if you keep it in one currency.  When I was nursing dreams about a wholesale model with casascius coin I was going to keep cash in an exchange to purchase bitcoin with whatever cash was being used to buy the coin on the spot.  At the end of the day I would always have more bitcoin.  When you do that only the percentage matters.

[casascius]

Also dont forget I have another cheap product coming out that I can sell you guys to spam the world with... I think the status is they've been minted and they are on their way to me.

Do you remember my Bitcoin "chocolates" from long ago?  Well, instead of being chocolate, this is a simple aluminum coin with "Strength in Numbers BTC BITCOIN" on the front, and then the back is totally blank.  I will have them in silver, gold, and a couple other colors.  And I am expecting a batch of these coins that exceed my entire body weight, pretty soon.  LIke maybe this next week.  The purpose of this coin is whatever you want it to be...spread the good bitcoin word.

You can put a sticker of your choice on it... whether it's just a home-printed label promoting bitcoin or whatever you want, or a QR code with 0.01 BTC you printed yourself or...whatever you want.  The coins themselves don't come with any private keys

There is a small recession in the back just in case you want to conceal a private key underneath your sticker, but it's off-center (toward the bottom) so it's not in your way if you don't want to conceal anything inside the coin.

THis is a mass-produced item that I don't have to do anything other than buy in bulk and reship so quantity won't be an issue.  That translates to a price that won't jump into the stratosphere even if there's lots of demand (I will mostly control the minimum order quantity).  When I see how they arrive, I'll decide how to price them, but I will probably be selling them in bags of hundreds or 1000 or by weight or just whatever makes it so I don't have to count coins one-by-one.  Being aluminum, it is a very light coin, an obvious weight difference as compared to my 1BTC coin.  The silver ones MIGHT come with a pretty mirror finish, but that remains to be seen (the gold and other colors won't, as they're anodized).

The coin will have, along the edge in small letters, "©CASASCIUS".  Before anyone asks why there's a copyright symbol, I am NOT asserting copyright status on the Bitcoin logo or anything on the coin, and to the extent copyright applies, I grant public domain status to the artwork and it may be freely used by others (other than my name, of course).  I think most people would desire my name on the coin, and by displaying the © symbol, I'm adding it in a manner that suggests I am responsible for the design, and one that avoids suggesting that I am the originator or the guarantor of whatever promises someone might have printed on the back.  This coin does not have any year marking on it, and this was intentional.

[casascius]

As a side note, I find it interesting when people convert bitcoin to $ when talking about the markup.  Mike absolutely has it right.  It is a bitcoin product purchased with bitcoin.  You can't fail to increase value if you keep it in one currency.  When I was nursing dreams about a wholesale model with casascius coin I was going to keep cash in an exchange to purchase bitcoin with whatever cash was being used to buy the coin on the spot.  At the end of the day I would always have more bitcoin.  When you do that only the percentage matters.

Totally true, keep this in mind:  coblee is selling some vintage coins on another thread... getting bids of ~68BTC for 30BTC face value coins... so in other words he's up to BTC1.26 (above face value) per coin... wow, right?... these are coins he bought from me at a markup of $2 or $3...

think for a moment who should be complaining... he's getting almost $200 and maybe more markup, for something that he bought from me for under $3 markup... I need a waambulance.

Actually, totally kidding.  I don't need a waambulance.  You see, he paid me BTC1.85 for those coins, each, plus BTC1.75 for postal mail to get them (per order, not per coin), because he bought them at a time when BTC was at rock bottom, and that was the price.  And....I've kept all those BTC, not sold them.  I have made a killing collecting BTC for postage I paid in dollars, because it has caused me to inadvertently buy BTC regularly that I wasn't ever intending to buy.  So, dispatch, tell the waambulance they can go back home.  As it turns out, I'm in pretty good shape.  But even if I wasn't, my purpose in making these coins wasn't to get into the coin business, it was to spam the world with BTC as a concept, and it looks like it's working regardless of what I charge.

[coblee]

As a side note, I find it interesting when people convert bitcoin to $ when talking about the markup.  Mike absolutely has it right.  It is a bitcoin product purchased with bitcoin.  You can't fail to increase value if you keep it in one currency.  When I was nursing dreams about a wholesale model with casascius coin I was going to keep cash in an exchange to purchase bitcoin with whatever cash was being used to buy the coin on the spot.  At the end of the day I would always have more bitcoin.  When you do that only the percentage matters.

Totally true, keep this in mind:  coblee is selling some vintage coins on another thread... getting bids of ~68BTC for 30BTC face value coins... so in other words he's up to BTC1.26 (above face value) per coin... wow, right?... these are coins he bought from me at a markup of $2 or $3...

think for a moment who should be complaining... he's getting almost $200 and maybe more markup, for something that he bought from me for under $3 markup... I need a waambulance.

Actually, totally kidding.  I don't need a waambulance.  You see, he paid me BTC1.85 for those coins, each, plus BTC1.75 for postal mail to get them (per order, not per coin), because he bought them at a time when BTC was at rock bottom, and that was the price.  And....I've kept all those BTC, not sold them.  I have made a killing collecting BTC for postage I paid in dollars, because it has caused me to inadvertently buy BTC regularly that I wasn't ever intending to buy.  So, dispatch, tell the waambulance they can go back home.  As it turns out, I'm in pretty good shape.  But even if I wasn't, my purpose in making these coins wasn't to get into the coin business, it was to spam the world with BTC as a concept, and it looks like it's working regardless of what I charge.

+100

Mike, I want a refund on the $250 I paid for shipping.

[Phil21]

That makes sense, and it's generally what I practice when possible in the bitcoin world.  I've paid for everything I can in btc, and accepted btc as payment for everything I've done.

However, I'm simply a very small scale exchange for a small set of people.  This means for every bitcoin I sell to someone, I need to replace it or end up cash heavy and bitcoin poor.

In this sense, for my limited market, physical bitcoins are competing against digital bitcoins for US dollars.  One of many products I may offer.  Someone very well may choose to pay a $20 above-spot fee for the security and novelty of the physical coin itself.  The same market dwindles quickly (remember, these are not hardcore believers - simply users of the bitcoin economy) when those per-coin fees get higher.  Use your own values for higher.

This is nothing new to anyone, just pointing out the model as it makes sense from my usage perspective.

It does make most sense to price these as bitcoins though, especially on the wholesale market.  So I see where this makes sense a lot more as an investment tool than a means of quick commerce.

Sounds like the mass produced coins coupled with some stickers and my laserjet is what I'll be looking for, to serve the needs of my customers