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Author Topic: [Suggestion] Scammers should be punished/Trust shown correctly  (Read 1167 times)
Panda Trump
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May 13, 2017, 10:40:25 PM
 #1

I've recently been scammed by LoudBearing. This user had alot of negative feedback, but it was "untrusted feedback". Therefore, at first glance I only saw positive stuff... That's how he was able to scam me. Ofcourse, you can just see the untrusted feedback too by going to his trusted page and then clicking on the "show untrusted feedback", but I can guarantee you that alot of newbies do not know this. And it's just plain annoying to have to looked people's trusted page to see their real trust score... Could it be a possibility to just show that instead of only the 'trusted' trust score? Or atleast add it under it or something? Idk, but please...

And now we're talking about scammers... Why aren't they punished on here? Like really... There are people with tons of negative feedback... Still scamming people every week and that won't stop untill there's something done about it...

I hope something can be done and our lives can be made easier :-)

Have a nice day,
-Your Cute Little Trump

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May 13, 2017, 10:54:39 PM
 #2

I've recently been scammed by LoudBearing. This user had alot of negative feedback, but it was "untrusted feedback". Therefore, at first glance I only saw positive stuff... That's how he was able to scam me. Ofcourse, you can just see the untrusted feedback too by going to his trusted page and then clicking on the "show untrusted feedback", but I can guarantee you that alot of newbies do not know this. And it's just plain annoying to have to looked people's trusted page to see their real trust score... Could it be a possibility to just show that instead of only the 'trusted' trust score? Or atleast add it under it or something? Idk, but please...

And now we're talking about scammers... Why aren't they punished on here? Like really... There are people with tons of negative feedback... Still scamming people every week and that won't stop untill there's something done about it...

I hope something can be done and our lives can be made easier :-)

Have a nice day,
-Your Cute Little Trump

He probably gave him fake trusts via his alt accounts to hide his neg trust ratings... That's how you missed them. Fuckers are getting smarter with everyday.

Mods/Admins can't punish them because this forums is swarmed with scammers. You ban them, they change their ip's and come back with more alt accounts. You ban his/her alt acc's, they buy acc's. Impossible to stop them.

You can report his suspicious alt accounts though, all of his accounts will get banned. Scamming is OK, but farming acc's is NO NO.

Here is a couple of three things you should know:

1- Always avoid newbie accounts.
2- Always fully check the trust page till the end. (you missed this)
3- If you feel like using escrow, you probably should.
4- Green trust doesn't mean he/she wont scam you, acc trading is not being punished.
5 and 6, Forum is filled with scammers you better stay away, if you don't feel safe, stop shopping.




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freebutcaged
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May 13, 2017, 11:13:21 PM
 #3

Trust system in this forum is in place to punish naughty kids so they can't participate in signature campaigns if not behaving nicely.
Satoshi has green trust, does it mean he was perfect coding Bitcoin?
I did participate in a signature campaign managed by a legendary member with tons of green trust scores but they didn't pay anyone and basically were a scam ICO, but no one cared, I even asked a DT2 member to seek justice in our behalf but talking to a wall could at least shake a few atoms.
If you are unable to simply scroll down to see the untrusted feed back then you are not fit to deal with people online.

Mods and administrators are not jobless with free time they have other obligations one of which to keep this forum functioning not to be a court room but to be a platform for community to interact.
If you go to Syria you might be captured by Isis and be killed, the safest option is to avoid going there if really not needed, a newbie should understand that no? if not then an idiot deserves to die. Smiley
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May 13, 2017, 11:33:07 PM
 #4

How do you check if something is a scam or not? What if there are false positives/negatives? Such is the reason why scams are not moderated. As well as that, there are way too many things to check to see if they are scams or not. Just see how many active threads are in all of the Marketplace section.



I'm not saying that a scammer is not at fault for the scam and this will seem quite calloused, but anyone that is scammed by a person who has plenty of negative feedback deserves it. It's will be a learning experience and next time, they will do the research. Newbies will get scammed - that's the reality of it. There's nothing we can do except try to mitigate the effects by tagging accounts prophylactically or by trying to link alts (that a scammer may have).



Never be too trusting.

Panda Trump
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May 14, 2017, 08:35:03 AM
 #5

I've recently been scammed by LoudBearing. This user had alot of negative feedback, but it was "untrusted feedback". Therefore, at first glance I only saw positive stuff... That's how he was able to scam me. Ofcourse, you can just see the untrusted feedback too by going to his trusted page and then clicking on the "show untrusted feedback", but I can guarantee you that alot of newbies do not know this. And it's just plain annoying to have to looked people's trusted page to see their real trust score... Could it be a possibility to just show that instead of only the 'trusted' trust score? Or atleast add it under it or something? Idk, but please...

And now we're talking about scammers... Why aren't they punished on here? Like really... There are people with tons of negative feedback... Still scamming people every week and that won't stop untill there's something done about it...

I hope something can be done and our lives can be made easier :-)

Have a nice day,
-Your Cute Little Trump

He probably gave him fake trusts via his alt accounts to hide his neg trust ratings... That's how you missed them. Fuckers are getting smarter with everyday.

Mods/Admins can't punish them because this forums is swarmed with scammers. You ban them, they change their ip's and come back with more alt accounts. You ban his/her alt acc's, they buy acc's. Impossible to stop them.

You can report his suspicious alt accounts though, all of his accounts will get banned. Scamming is OK, but farming acc's is NO NO.

Here is a couple of three things you should know:

1- Always avoid newbie accounts.
2- Always fully check the trust page till the end. (you missed this)
3- If you feel like using escrow, you probably should.
4- Green trust doesn't mean he/she wont scam you, acc trading is not being punished.
5 and 6, Forum is filled with scammers you better stay away, if you don't feel safe, stop shopping.
I don't need those points as I know those. He wasn't a newbie, nor a Jr. Member. Nor does rank tell anything about it. I'm just saying that negative trust should be shown better and easier to observe than having to look at his trust page and then manually open the untrusted part...
Newbies don't understand that, as it's just not logical to hide 90% of the negative feedback...

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May 14, 2017, 08:41:23 AM
 #6

How do you check if something is a scam or not? What if there are false positives/negatives? Such is the reason why scams are not moderated. As well as that, there are way too many things to check to see if they are scams or not. Just see how many active threads are in all of the Marketplace section.



I'm not saying that a scammer is not at fault for the scam and this will seem quite calloused, but anyone that is scammed by a person who has plenty of negative feedback deserves it. It's will be a learning experience and next time, they will do the research. Newbies will get scammed - that's the reality of it. There's nothing we can do except try to mitigate the effects by tagging accounts prophylactically or by trying to link alts (that a scammer may have).



Never be too trusting.
Your first paragraph, I can't really disagree. It's alot of work ofcourse to figure that out.

Second paragraph is nonsense. I was scammed by someone with plenty of negative feedback, BUT AT FIRST SIGHT IT WAS ONLY POSITIVE FEEDBACK SHOWING UP! Because the positive feedback was trusted and the negative was untrusted, so I could only see the positive side at first sight. I'm sorry, but what you just said is COMPLETE nonsense. Ofcourse it would be a learning lesson, but an UNNECESSARY learning lesson. I've been on the internet for a while now and I've done alot of deals on other sites. There I just looked someone's trust and done. Here I would first have to figure out that there is 'trusted' trust and 'untrusted' trust and that I can only see the 'trusted' trust at first sight and have to dig deeper to find the 'untrusted' trust? That's NOT logical!

You said "anyone that is scammed by a person who has plenty of negative feedback deserves it."
So if you were killed by someone who had killed alot of other people before, but who you thought was your friend and who had always hidden that information from you, you would say you would deserve it to die, just because you didn't know that he killed all those people before? Nonsense

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May 14, 2017, 08:51:01 AM
 #7

Trust system in this forum is in place to punish naughty kids so they can't participate in signature campaigns if not behaving nicely.
Satoshi has green trust, does it mean he was perfect coding Bitcoin?
I did participate in a signature campaign managed by a legendary member with tons of green trust scores but they didn't pay anyone and basically were a scam ICO, but no one cared, I even asked a DT2 member to seek justice in our behalf but talking to a wall could at least shake a few atoms.
If you are unable to simply scroll down to see the untrusted feed back then you are not fit to deal with people online.

Mods and administrators are not jobless with free time they have other obligations one of which to keep this forum functioning not to be a court room but to be a platform for community to interact.
If you go to Syria you might be captured by Isis and be killed, the safest option is to avoid going there if really not needed, a newbie should understand that no? if not then an idiot deserves to die. Smiley

I simply can't agree with you. It's not "scrolling down". It's first having to figure out that there is 'trusted' and 'untrusted' trust. There's no way a newbie can know that exists and when looking at someone's profile you would first see only the 'trusted' trust. I, as someone who was a newbie at that time, thought that all feedback would be shown on the profile page. It was only after the deal, so after I was scammed that I went to his trust page to leave negative feedback, and then noticed there was 'trusted' and 'untrusted' feedback...

And to your Syria example, what would you think if you weren't told anything about the negative parts of Syria? You had only heard about the positive parts... Beautiful view, nice people, awesome activities... etc! And it would be after you were killed by ISIS that you would notice there was something wrong with syria after all. Please... It would prevent so many people from being scammed if untrusted feedback was just added to the trust score you see at people's profile page...

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May 14, 2017, 08:53:39 AM
 #8

I don't need those points as I know those. He wasn't a newbie, nor a Jr. Member. Nor does rank tell anything about it. I'm just saying that negative trust should be shown better and easier to observe than having to look at his trust page and then manually open the untrusted part...
Newbies don't understand that, as it's just not logical to hide 90% of the negative feedback...

What you ask is nonsense. Positive trusts have the right to be shown as much as Negative trust ratings. Just check the whole goddamn page. You were lazy to do so and that's why he was able to scam you. It was your mistake, not the trust system's. And as you said already, the hints were already there. You missed them that's all.




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May 14, 2017, 10:51:43 AM
 #9

Quote
You can report his suspicious alt accounts though, all of his accounts will get banned. Scamming is OK, but farming acc's is NO NO.


What do u mean by scamming is OK. It is not OK to scam people. How can you say that its OK to scam people?

Any way, I agree with Panda Trump, The trust page is kind of strange especially if someone is a newbie. The Trust system can be improved a bit. I know it won't be easy changing the system as it will require countless hours of coding. But something more modern could be done.

Instead of trusted and untrusted feedback. There should only be only 1 big list. The "Trusted Feedback" can be highlighted and the ratings from "Untrusted members" should be just bold. Well that's just my opinion.

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May 14, 2017, 11:08:43 AM
Last edit: May 14, 2017, 11:19:29 AM by Panda Trump
 #10

I don't need those points as I know those. He wasn't a newbie, nor a Jr. Member. Nor does rank tell anything about it. I'm just saying that negative trust should be shown better and easier to observe than having to look at his trust page and then manually open the untrusted part...
Newbies don't understand that, as it's just not logical to hide 90% of the negative feedback...

What you ask is nonsense. Positive trusts have the right to be shown as much as Negative trust ratings. Just check the whole goddamn page. You were lazy to do so and that's why he was able to scam you. It was your mistake, not the trust system's. And as you said already, the hints were already there. You missed them that's all.
As you stated "Positive trusts have the right to be shown as much as Negative trust ratings.", I think you misunderstood my suggestion...

The site's trust system works like this:

There's 'trusted' trust. If someone who is not in your 'trusted' network gives a person negative/positive feedback, it will be shown as 'trusted' feedback, showing -1 or +1

But also...
There's 'untrusted' trust. If someone who is not in your 'trusted' network gives a person negative/positive feedback, it will be shown as 'untrusted' feedback, not showing anything.

Most of the user's ratings were 'untrusted' feedback and therefore hidden. Only the trusted feedback was shown, which was all positive. As I was new and didn't know there existed something like "trusted" and "untrusted" feedback on this site, I only looked at the trust he had on his profile page (So it only showed the 'trusted' feedback, which was only positive ones. All the negative ones were hidden in the 'untrusted feedback'.

Now my suggestion is to not only show the 'trusted' feedback, but also the 'untrusted' feedback.
This will make trading alot easier and will prevent ALOT of new users from being scammed.

It's just not logical to show the 'trusted' feedback, but not show the other feedback, which probably makes up the truth and could have a major influence on the decision whether to trade with the user or not to trade with the user.
A new user who hasn't read anywhere about the difference between untrusted and trusted feedback (like me and I'm careful with trading...) will only see the 'trusted' feedback, which can give a very false view of the user's reliability.

Now you'll probably be stubborn and say "just check the freaking trust page!", but 1. not everyone knows it's there... 2. If I see only positive feedback on someone's profile page, I wouldn't go to the trust page to see wht those people have to say. Only now that I know there's both trusted and untrusted feedback, I am checking the trustpage... But it's just nonsense that it doesn't show up on the profile page/under the avater at posts.

I think both trusted and untrusted feedback should be shown better.


Quote
You can report his suspicious alt accounts though, all of his accounts will get banned. Scamming is OK, but farming acc's is NO NO.


What do u mean by scamming is OK. It is not OK to scam people. How can you say that its OK to scam people?

Any way, I agree with Panda Trump, The trust page is kind of strange especially if someone is a newbie. The Trust system can be improved a bit. I know it won't be easy changing the system as it will require countless hours of coding. But something more modern could be done.

Instead of trusted and untrusted feedback. There should only be only 1 big list. The "Trusted Feedback" can be highlighted and the ratings from "Untrusted members" should be just bold. Well that's just my opinion.

I agree with you. Both should be listed and it should atleast be shown better, also on profile page and under the avatar. I hope we can get this implemented.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe this would require too much coding, and then maybe a temporary solution, till a permanent solution comes around, would be to notify all newbies of the difference between untrusted and trusted feedback.

Thanks for your time,
-Panda Trump



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May 14, 2017, 01:39:56 PM
 #11

You said "anyone that is scammed by a person who has plenty of negative feedback deserves it."
So if you were killed by someone who had killed alot of other people before, but who you thought was your friend and who had always hidden that information from you, you would say you would deserve it to die, just because you didn't know that he killed all those people before? Nonsense

Not a great analogy.

You can say that this person is your friend - that's fine. Except... you have the information available about his killings. If various people stated that he killed someone, wouldn't you do some research into that topic before accompanying him on a trip to the dark forest at midnight? You're not forced to do it just like how you're not forced to trade with a potential scammer.



There actually is an option in the Forum Profile Information section that allows you to show untrusted feedback by default. I think this should at least be enabled for everyone upon registration.



By the way, I couldn't find the original user you were talking about. Can you link to his profile?



There is always a problem with newbies checking untrusted feedback since they may hold them at an equal caliber as trusted feedback. Suppose there is a user you wish to trade with yet they have ~30 negative feedbacks coming from a single person who was a scammer. Newbies wouldn't always be inclined to research and would simply dismiss the user thinking that they are untrustworthy.

(Look at my wall for god's sake. I can come up with a reply for each of the negative ones [and most have no references])

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May 14, 2017, 02:48:14 PM
 #12

Quote
You can report his suspicious alt accounts though, all of his accounts will get banned. Scamming is OK, but farming acc's is NO NO.


What do u mean by scamming is OK. It is not OK to scam people. How can you say that its OK to scam people?

Any way, I agree with Panda Trump, The trust page is kind of strange especially if someone is a newbie. The Trust system can be improved a bit. I know it won't be easy changing the system as it will require countless hours of coding. But something more modern could be done.

Instead of trusted and untrusted feedback. There should only be only 1 big list. The "Trusted Feedback" can be highlighted and the ratings from "Untrusted members" should be just bold. Well that's just my opinion.

I mean you won't get banned just because you scammed people. You'll only get bad trust ratings.

If you farm accounts and spam the board on the other hand, they will exterminate every last piece of you.

I know it is not OK, but i am not talking about me and you or any other people. I am talking about the forum rules.

-----

As for the OP again, I know how trust system works. You need to check both Trusted & Untrusted feedback before dealing with someone. Everything.




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Panda Trump
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May 14, 2017, 03:30:03 PM
 #13

You said "anyone that is scammed by a person who has plenty of negative feedback deserves it."
So if you were killed by someone who had killed alot of other people before, but who you thought was your friend and who had always hidden that information from you, you would say you would deserve it to die, just because you didn't know that he killed all those people before? Nonsense

Not a great analogy.

You can say that this person is your friend - that's fine. Except... you have the information available about his killings. If various people stated that he killed someone, wouldn't you do some research into that topic before accompanying him on a trip to the dark forest at midnight? You're not forced to do it just like how you're not forced to trade with a potential scammer.



There actually is an option in the Forum Profile Information section that allows you to show untrusted feedback by default. I think this should at least be enabled for everyone upon registration.



By the way, I couldn't find the original user you were talking about. Can you link to his profile?



There is always a problem with newbies checking untrusted feedback since they may hold them at an equal caliber as trusted feedback. Suppose there is a user you wish to trade with yet they have ~30 negative feedbacks coming from a single person who was a scammer. Newbies wouldn't always be inclined to research and would simply dismiss the user thinking that they are untrustworthy.

(Look at my wall for god's sake. I can come up with a reply for each of the negative ones [and most have no references])

The problem is that as you're new, you do not know that untrusted feedback exists, just like you don't know of his murders. Ofcourse you could look at the untrusted feedback. So could you research your friend completely... But I doubt you do a full research on your friend, including DNA tests on unsolved killing mysteries?

What I'm saying is that no one wants to go through all that crap and newbies don't even know it's possible. I don't even understand why there's 'untrusted' and 'trusted' feedback anyways.

And you're saying that you would rather have newbies get scammed than them dismissing potential scammers?


Also, I agree with you that it should allow you to see untrusted feedback by default, upon registration and then as an option to disable it. That would be a solution too.

I really hope a solution to this problem gets implemented.

The person's profile Link:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=772006

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May 14, 2017, 03:35:54 PM
 #14

Quote
You can report his suspicious alt accounts though, all of his accounts will get banned. Scamming is OK, but farming acc's is NO NO.


What do u mean by scamming is OK. It is not OK to scam people. How can you say that its OK to scam people?

Any way, I agree with Panda Trump, The trust page is kind of strange especially if someone is a newbie. The Trust system can be improved a bit. I know it won't be easy changing the system as it will require countless hours of coding. But something more modern could be done.

Instead of trusted and untrusted feedback. There should only be only 1 big list. The "Trusted Feedback" can be highlighted and the ratings from "Untrusted members" should be just bold. Well that's just my opinion.

I mean you won't get banned just because you scammed people. You'll only get bad trust ratings.

If you farm accounts and spam the board on the other hand, they will exterminate every last piece of you.

I know it is not OK, but i am not talking about me and you or any other people. I am talking about the forum rules.

-----

As for the OP again, I know how trust system works. You need to check both Trusted & Untrusted feedback before dealing with someone. Everything.

you're an complete idiot, huh? I'm talking about how most people don't even know about the existence of Untrusted feedback, as it's not shown anywhere but on the trustpage. Please read the posts...

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May 14, 2017, 04:12:55 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2017, 05:06:14 PM by mindrust
 #15

you're an complete idiot, huh? I'm talking about how most people don't even know about the existence of Untrusted feedback, as it's not shown anywhere but on the trustpage. Please read the posts...

Sorry i'm an idiot who reads every feedback there is and never got scammed and you got scammed because you are a lot smarter than me. Keep this up, It will definitely help you a lot more in the long run.

I am an idiot because i know about the existence of untrusted feedback and you are not an idiot because you didn't know about it. Keep it right up, ignore me and what i've said. Have a nice day.




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actmyname
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May 14, 2017, 04:59:55 PM
 #16

The problem is that as you're new, you do not know that untrusted feedback exists, just like you don't know of his murders. Ofcourse you could look at the untrusted feedback. So could you research your friend completely... But I doubt you do a full research on your friend, including DNA tests on unsolved killing mysteries?

Again, analogy can't really be worked as easily here. If someone seems sketchy, all you have to do is not enter a trade with them. That's pretty simple, isn't it?

What I'm saying is that no one wants to go through all that crap and newbies don't even know it's possible. I don't even understand why there's 'untrusted' and 'trusted' feedback anyways.

You can modify your trust settings to "trust" an individual and all their feedback will be shown in trusted feedback. There is also hierarchal trust, which means you can trust a layer deeper - for example, if you trust person X and person X trusts person Y, then it is possible for person Y's feedbacks to also be shown in the trusted section. If you don't want it, of course, there is a modifier. (It can go as deep as 4 or as shallow as 0).
By default everyone has DefaultTrust trusted and has a depth of 2 for trust feedbacks.



And you're saying that you would rather have newbies get scammed than them dismissing potential scammers?

No. This was a separate point so perhaps I should have had a different segue. This is on the discussion of why enabling by default can potentially cause problems (though I'd say the pros outweigh them).




I'm not sure where you found trusted positive feedback. All of the person's feedbacks are untrusted by default and there's a lot more red than positive there.

You should also start a Scam Accusation topic on the user. That would likely (if enough evidence was garnered) result in them receiving negative feedback from a DT1 or DT2 member.




Please edit your posts, by the way. Double-posting is against forum rules.

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May 14, 2017, 06:11:26 PM
 #17

And now we're talking about scammers... Why aren't they punished on here? Like really... There are people with tons of negative feedback... Still scamming people every week and that won't stop untill there's something done about it...
What do you want us to do ? Ban their Ip's ? They come back with VPN's. Just give  one feasible solution which you think will make the difference.

-Your Cute Little Trump
Not Mine.Don't remember accepting you.

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unamis76
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May 14, 2017, 07:55:52 PM
 #18

The only way to solve your "issue" is, well... Put everyone on your trust list.

Any way, I agree with Panda Trump, The trust page is kind of strange especially if someone is a newbie. The Trust system can be improved a bit. I know it won't be easy changing the system as it will require countless hours of coding. But something more modern could be done.

A new forum is already on the works, you can make suggestions on its section.
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May 14, 2017, 09:40:28 PM
 #19

If you go to profile > Forum Profile Information, and check "Show untrusted feedback by default:" the untrusted feedback will show up without needing to click.

But it is important to note that it is untrusted. It could be fake, as feedback is not moderated.

Please don't stop us from using ASICBoost which we're not using
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May 14, 2017, 09:46:22 PM
 #20

And now we're talking about scammers... Why aren't they punished on here? Like really... There are people with tons of negative feedback... Still scamming people every week and that won't stop untill there's something done about it...
What do you want us to do ? Ban their Ip's ? They come back with VPN's. Just give  one feasible solution which you think will make the difference.

-Your Cute Little Trump
Not Mine.Don't remember accepting you.
How about instituting some sort of tribunal, by which scammers are judged, like blackhatworld?  Other forums seem to have no problem whatsoever banning scammers.  They're just not tolerated.  And this argument that they keep coming back with alt accounts applies to spammers & shitposters, too, and yet they're banned here.  Does that make any sense?  Doesn't to me.  Sounds more like Theymos tolerates scammers for a reason that's known only to him.  Lauda and others have speculated about that reason, but I don't know anything more them.  The old 'scammer tag' was very useful.  The present trust system really isn't.  Just my opinion.
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