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Author Topic: Ola... any crypto-aware accountants who can assist?  (Read 1431 times)
bitterbug
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May 16, 2017, 04:27:54 PM
 #1

Ola, boa tarde,

Are there any English-speaking accountants who know how to declare some crypto exchanges for tax purposes? I would like some help with my self-assessment tax-return which is due for filing soon, in Portugal.

Obrigado,
Jim
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riclas
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May 16, 2017, 05:42:03 PM
 #2

Hi Jim,
you are supposed to declare whatever earnings in euros you got from crypto trades in annex g section 13001, or as "rendimentos obtidos no estrangeiro" if all the trades were done abroad. Either way the tax is the same.

Buying and selling Bitcoin through National, SEPA and MBWAY bank transfer: https://localbitcoins.com/accounts/profile/riclas/?ch=4mm6
bitterbug
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May 16, 2017, 08:32:52 PM
 #3

Thanks, riclas,

Could you elaborate on 'All the trades were done abroad', please?

I was in Portugal, at the time of the trades, if that is what you mean. But the fiat/crypto exchanges were not in Euros. If I convert using daily rates, is that acceptable?

riclas
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May 17, 2017, 04:11:44 PM
 #4

The exchanges themselves are not important. the important part is what you got into your bank account in Euros versus what you got out of it. The surplus is the reportable part.

Buying and selling Bitcoin through National, SEPA and MBWAY bank transfer: https://localbitcoins.com/accounts/profile/riclas/?ch=4mm6
bitterbug
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May 17, 2017, 05:04:25 PM
 #5

The exchanges themselves are not important. the important part is what you got into your bank account in Euros versus what you got out of it. The surplus is the reportable part.

Right. The next question is probably more important.... do I need to declare crypto-crypto trades? Or just fiat-crypto and crypto-fiat trades?

Not sure if you know that level of detail.

Thanks
amaral1977
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May 19, 2017, 10:07:52 PM
 #6

In my interpretation of the law, as crypto is not officially considered money what will be taxed is the surplus you have in Fiat. As Riclas said what would be taxed is the diference between the fiat you used to aquire the crypto and the fiat you got from selling considering it was a profit.
the crypto-crypto trades wont be considered IMO and interpretation of the law.

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cethros
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December 17, 2017, 12:24:52 AM
 #7

Hi,

I'm also a foreigner asking myself this kind of questions.
If this is considered as revenue obtained abroad, would it be exempted in case of someone benefiting from the non-habitual resident program (NHR)?

Do you know a good lawyer in Portugal (preferably Lisbon) who would be able to assist for those issues?
Trimegistus
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December 20, 2017, 06:29:22 PM
Last edit: December 20, 2017, 08:37:08 PM by Trimegistus
 #8

Hi Jim,
you are supposed to declare whatever earnings in euros you got from crypto trades in annex g section 13001, or as "rendimentos obtidos no estrangeiro" if all the trades were done abroad. Either way the tax is the same.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Portuguese law doesn't have a single word about crypto currencies, exchanges, mining, trading, nothing!

Section G, Rendimentos obtidos no estrangeiro, refers to work done abroad, not to crypto trading!

The law is completely absent when it comes to anything crypto related.

Buying and selling BTC is not regulated in Portuguese law, therefore we don't have to pay anything.

If this is a crime, show me the law I'm breaking will you? Please?

CarDioLogic
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December 21, 2017, 02:29:51 PM
 #9

I assumed the taxation would be the same for crypto as if you're trading stocks in Portugal, cryptos would probably be considered assets that you trade, so any profits made would have the same taxation as any profits you make while trading stocks.

PS: i don't know alot about accounting or the law in this area nor have i traded cryptos before (yet), it just seems to  make sense to me that they would be subjected to the same taxation as stock trading.
I think that there is not any law regulating cryptos or that there are any official government instructions relating to crypto taxation, better to consult a lawyer or an accountant.
CarDioLogic
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December 21, 2017, 02:32:56 PM
 #10

Hi Jim,
you are supposed to declare whatever earnings in euros you got from crypto trades in annex g section 13001, or as "rendimentos obtidos no estrangeiro" if all the trades were done abroad. Either way the tax is the same.

I'm sorry, but where exactly did you see that?
I'm thinking of getting into crypto trading, but i also want to be sure i'm doing the "proper taxes".


The law is completely absent when it comes to anything crypto related.

Buying and selling BTC is not regulated in Portuguese law, therefore we don't have to pay anything.

If this is a crime, show me the law I'm breaking will you? Please?

How do you explain your profits to the fiscal authorities then (especially if they are big)? They might think you stole, or got them througth other illegal activities.
I think you are making a mistake, you should be careful and honest when it comes to taxes.
Trimegistus
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December 21, 2017, 06:50:43 PM
 #11

The law is completely absent when it comes to anything crypto related.

Buying and selling BTC is not regulated in Portuguese law, therefore we don't have to pay anything.

If this is a crime, show me the law I'm breaking will you? Please?

How do you explain your profits to the fiscal authorities then (especially if they are big)? They might think you stole, or got them througth other illegal activities.
I think you are making a mistake, you should be careful and honest when it comes to taxes.

1 - I don't have to explain my profits when they are obtained via a non-regulated mechanism.

2 - I'm not doing anything illegal!

3 - I'm a miner and a staker! These activities don't fall under any local legislation. I mine at my own expenses, purchasing  very expensive equipment, paying huge electrical bills. Then I sell my coins. I don't have to pay taxes on this!

4 - It's up to them to prove that I'm evading taxes. And I dare them to do that! Where is it written that selling ETH obtained via mining is subject to any taxes?

5 - Similar principles apply to crypto trading because all other trading is very well regulated, bonds, stocks, derivatives, etc, etc.

6 - Where does crypto fit in? Is it a currency? A bond? A stock? A commodity? Where is it defined?

7 - Crypto currencies are not regulated, hence one cannot be accused of breaking the law by tax evasion. I pay all my taxes!

I'm an honest citizen and you should be more careful before accusing people you don't know. Particularly when you don't even know waht you are talking about!

Stop spreading false information! Stop frightening people with your ignorance! And stop judging others!


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December 21, 2017, 09:36:05 PM
 #12

1 - I don't have to explain my profits when they are obtained via a non-regulated mechanism.

Well... selling drugs isn't also regulated and lot of people obtain profits from it. Never the less, although this is one activity deemed illegal, people DO HAVE to explain from where the money came from precisely to prove they didn't obtained it from illicit activities nor from tax evasion.


4 - It's up to them to prove that I'm evading taxes. And I dare them to do that! Where is it written that selling ETH obtained via mining is subject to any taxes?

Digital mining no, not yet. It isn't yet subject to taxation as actual mining. Give them some months and I bet you'll need a license to mine!! Remind you of the leaches sitting in the government (Béééhhhh)!! Cheesy

7 - Crypto currencies are not regulated, hence one cannot be accused of breaking the law by tax evasion. I pay all my taxes!

It's not the mining or the digital asset they want to tax. They want to tax the money you made from it. Although they don't do it yet, they might. Specially if some bank, exchange or any other third party tips them on the cash you made.
Wink

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Trimegistus
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December 21, 2017, 09:57:17 PM
 #13

1 - Point taken. I should've explained myself better.

4 - Exactly. They are always eager to take taxes, even when they don't have a clue where they are coming from!

7 - When that time comes, I'll abide to the law as I always have and always will. But for now, there is nothing they can do.


Jay_Pal
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December 21, 2017, 10:35:51 PM
 #14

7 - When that time comes, I'll abide to the law as I always have and always will. But for now, there is nothing they can do.

I get your point and respect it but my living experience and looking how the Tax Services work... We have to be extra careful.
Mind that even with bonds or stock actions, they don't tax the stock or the bond. They tax the extra money you make.
Perhaps, if the drug sellers took part of the profit to pay taxes, nobody would ask them where did the money came from!!!
And believe me... fighting the Tax Services in court is a nightmare...
And although you are correct in some assumptions, the problem is that they are still assumptions: when they pick you up, they already have found the loophole in the law to nail your ass.
One example is a debt pawning your salary via notification: imagine it becomes due since they were unable to collect or because you have paid that.
In a normal world, your boss would receive another notification stating the pawn wouldn't be necessary anymore.
In Portugal... they will not send the notification since you have another one of smaller value.
They will pay in full the one expired, the Taxes will deduce the smaller one and... someday after you make pressure on an unnumbered couple of people, you will receive the exceeding but without any interests on.
The point is, there is no legislation indeed but that wouldn't stop them of making your life a nightmare. You'd spend all your profits in court.
There's no need to take unnecessary chances so, the greatest problem is indeed finding a lawyer who's able to advise to some degree of correctness.
I know a great lawyer and I know a fiscalist but I don't know how would any of them be able to provide the most correct answer. And both know to some degree what mining and cryptocurrency are.
And although this is a subject already debated (reaching no conclusion at all in the end) in other topics, this one is important to, at least, gather and share the correct information.

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Trimegistus
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December 21, 2017, 11:03:54 PM
 #15

I gave the correct information; there is no legislation on the matter.

In order for the tax service to to come after you, they have to justify their actions with the law! That's what they do, and I totally support all their actions. They cannot, and will not charge you with anything only based of speculation, this is a democratic country with a rule of law system.

A courthouse enforces the law! There is no law for crypto. Period!

We would have a much better country if everybody would pay their due taxes. Like I pay mine!

But this is a brave new world, we are not stealing anything, we are not evading the law, we are not committing any crime; we are just dealing with something that is still a novelty.

All I say is, let's take advantage of the absence of law while we can. As soon as they regulate it, the fun might be over.

In many other countries, this is already regulated. Our government announced last week the creation of a working group to debate these issues.

Let's wait and see. But for now, crypto mining and trading is not subject to any taxes!

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December 21, 2017, 11:21:21 PM
 #16

We would have a much better country if everybody would pay their due taxes. Like I pay mine!

Don't say that. You might someday have due taxes without even knowing it.
The case I'm talking about the person had no responsibility in it. He simply had a business partner who he trusted his heart. His partner was his father.
The business started to rumble and fail without his knowledge and his partner (the father) hided this from him.
One day, the debt knocked this person's door and his salary, bank accounts, house and car got pawned.
His only fault? He trusted in someone he shouldn't and believe me, his trying hard to get rid of the debt.
So, please don't judge every one who's in debt. There are lot of cases where people didn't know and the Tax Services made everything to hide it from them so they could collect more later.
Remember this? https://www.dn.pt/dinheiro/interior/fisco-esta-a-reclamar--imi-de-2013-a-quem-perdeu-a-isencao-8852415.html

And no, "trading and mining" are not subjected to taxes. The money (in euros) you earn from it might be.

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Trimegistus
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December 21, 2017, 11:43:41 PM
 #17

We would have a much better country if everybody would pay their due taxes. Like I pay mine!

Don't say that. You might someday have due taxes without even knowing it.
The case I'm talking about the person had no responsibility in it. He simply had a business partner who he trusted his heart. His partner was his father.
The business started to rumble and fail without his knowledge and his partner (the father) hided this from him.
One day, the debt knocked this person's door and his salary, bank accounts, house and car got pawned.
His only fault? He trusted in someone he shouldn't and believe me, his trying hard to get rid of the debt.
So, please don't judge every one who's in debt. There are lot of cases where people didn't know and the Tax Services made everything to hide it from them so they could collect more later.
Remember this? https://www.dn.pt/dinheiro/interior/fisco-esta-a-reclamar--imi-de-2013-a-quem-perdeu-a-isencao-8852415.html

And no, "trading and mining" are not subjected to taxes. The money (in euros) you earn from it might be.

Your example has nothing to do with the past discussion.

And let's close the subject, and this thread.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

 Grin

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December 21, 2017, 11:50:40 PM
 #18

We would have a much better country if everybody would pay their due taxes. Like I pay mine!

Don't say that. You might someday have due taxes without even knowing it.
The case I'm talking about the person had no responsibility in it. He simply had a business partner who he trusted his heart. His partner was his father.
The business started to rumble and fail without his knowledge and his partner (the father) hided this from him.
One day, the debt knocked this person's door and his salary, bank accounts, house and car got pawned.
His only fault? He trusted in someone he shouldn't and believe me, his trying hard to get rid of the debt.
So, please don't judge every one who's in debt. There are lot of cases where people didn't know and the Tax Services made everything to hide it from them so they could collect more later.
Remember this? https://www.dn.pt/dinheiro/interior/fisco-esta-a-reclamar--imi-de-2013-a-quem-perdeu-a-isencao-8852415.html

And no, "trading and mining" are not subjected to taxes. The money (in euros) you earn from it might be.

Your example has nothing to do with the past discussion.

And let's close the subject, and this thread.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

 Grin

No, nothing at all. The example is only related to your phrase.
And I don't agree on closing the thread, this is a subject that should be enlightened once for all!!

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Trimegistus
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December 21, 2017, 11:53:13 PM
 #19

Pra mim acabou a conversa, os factos são claros e evidentes e as opiniões antagónicas.

Nada mais há a dizer...


CarDioLogic
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December 22, 2017, 01:00:59 AM
 #20


I'm an honest citizen and you should be more careful before accusing people you don't know. Particularly when you don't even know waht you are talking about!

Stop spreading false information! Stop frightening people with your ignorance! And stop judging others!


I didn't mean to disrespect, nor i was accusing you of anything. And it certainly wasn't my intention to frigthen anyone, but to be cautious when it comes to these matters.
I understand there is no regulation, and i agree mostly in what you say, but i do think that if you make a big profit and they don't know where it comes from they will be alarmed.
Better to consult a lawyer and/or a fiscal operative to know more, it's what i intend to do.
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