Open source Bitcoin ATM?

[salty]

Hi I'm quite excited about the Bitcoin ATM idea, the notion of being able to input £20 notes into a bitcoin ATM in London, then fly to Tokyo and put bitcoin into a machine that gives me Yen is very exciting. Imagine a machine in or near all the major airports in the world, that would make a great exchange network!

Similarly it is getting quite difficult to buy or sell btc on the online exchanges due to the interface with the banking system, this would be an excellent way to get round the banks and deal directly with btc<>cash money. Imagine going down to the ATM and withdrawing some of your mining profits for straight cash? Or getting some online cash completely anonymously for straight cash? Doesn't it make sense to have an automated interface between the digital cash which is bitcoin and the meatspace cash which is... cash?

In the past the Bitcoin ATM was not taken seriously, because we didn't have this trouble with interfacing banks with the exchanges, and a credit card was seen as a better option which again has proved difficult because of the banks, now we have one Bitcoin ATM on the verge of being introduced, but I'm not confident it will succeed because if it's tied into the banking network, I get the feeling they will pull the rug from under it again or regulate it into an evolutionary dead end. Now I may be wrong about this and good luck to the developers, I certainly don't *want* to see it fail and someone waste a lot of time and effort, I've just got a feeling it'll get stamped on somehow. But what's wrong with some good old market competition anyway?

As a way to encourage this competition wouldn't it be good to work out an open source implementation? i.e something that deals only with cash and bitcoins and doesn't interface with any banks?  And if there's a clear documented building model open to anyone who could build one, and up to each individual builder/operator to ensure they are complying with any local money changing laws, and conversely up to the authorities to stamp out lots of little fires ensure lots of different people are complying with local money changing laws, then wouldn't that be a better way of getting this distributed? The rewards for working on this and building it would be your exchange fees, which you could charge at a higher percentage if you wanted to be greedy, until somebody else puts an exchange into the Moroccan Cafe across the street and drives your fees down to a more reasonable level.

I can't see it being *too* difficult to make one if it was broken down into manageable parts and areas of expertise, take a machine that counts monetary notes, make a USB to note-counter interface, add an android smartphone, write the software, put it in a steel box in a newsagent's or Cafe, with some concrete blocks in the base, make sure the proprietor removes any money when they empty their other tills etc....

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[hdclover]

wow, great ideas. hope someone make it soons.

[Frozenlock]

Well, what are you waiting for guys?

Do you have any skills in electronics and/or programming? 

Even if I whole-heartily support the idea, this is far from being a trivial task...

[yona]

The machine itself not exist already, it's a standard ATM.
it's the a function of integrating bitcoin into it that's a little tricky.

[btcmind]

Hi I'm quite excited about the Bitcoin ATM idea, the notion of being able to input £20 notes into a bitcoin ATM in London, then fly to Tokyo and put bitcoin into a machine that gives me Yen is very exciting. Imagine a machine in or near all the major airports in the world, that would make a great exchange network!

Similarly it is getting quite difficult to buy or sell btc on the online exchanges due to the interface with the banking system, this would be an excellent way to get round the banks and deal directly with btc<>cash money. Imagine going down to the ATM and withdrawing some of your mining profits for straight cash?

Interesting thoughts. However the exchange market converts BTC <> $ ¥ € . If you have an ATM system then you have an operator essentially acting as a gateway to the FX market. So the ATM operator would hedge his positions in the most liquid market. That's what banks usually do. I've read that even smaller companies pay up to 0.50-1.00% for FX transactions. And so we are back to the exchange problem, because a "BTC bank" would have to use the exchange for hedging.

There are different kinds of functions of banks, exchanges, market markers which possibly can be completely re-invented, re-designed. But one of the most crucial aspects are commonly overlooked on this board, and that is the aspects of law. If you the Bitcoin entities have the same kinds of regulations as the standard entities and the interaces are controlled by the existing banks, exchanges, it doesn't much of a difference, at least where that infrastructure exists. It does not make much sense to convert $ into BTC and then into ¥, because you are only going to pay much higher fees most of the time.

The real power in the short term is in places where infrastructure does not exist. Say for poor countries where there are not even proper banks and ATMs. Imagine being able to roll out a banking infrastructure around BTC. You would basically save 99% of the costs.

Or transactions which otherwise not possible. In other cases counterparty risks are just so much greater. Say if MtGox would be shutdown the price would probably drop by 70% in a matter of days, and the market would dry up. So in this sense BTC is not safe at all.

[salty]

Well, what are you waiting for guys?

Do you have any skills in electronics and/or programming? 

Even if I whole-heartily support the idea, this is far from being a trivial task...

Yes, I know but not interfacing with banks would make the task much simpler? you can buy a cash counter/stacker for £125 http://www.intelligentvending.co.uk/payment-systems-telemetry/banknote-readers-note-stackers/gba-st2.htm, a MDB - USB interface for similar or less, and an android phone for similar. Add in another £200 for a nice steel box, and the whole thing costs < £500. The software is the hard part to me not being a programmer.

[salty]

The machine itself not exist already, it's a standard ATM.
it's the a function of integrating bitcoin into it that's a little tricky.

No you missed a point which is quite important. It would not interface with the banking system in any way, ONLY btc-cash.

[townf]

All you need is an android app, a wad of cash, and a booth with a dwarf in it wearing headphones so you can tell him how much to give. Bam. Done

[salty]

Interesting thoughts. However the exchange market converts BTC <> $ ¥ € . If you have an ATM system then you have an operator essentially acting as a gateway to the FX market. So the ATM operator would hedge his positions in the most liquid market. That's what banks usually do. I've read that even smaller companies pay up to 0.50-1.00% for FX transactions. And so we are back to the exchange problem, because a "BTC bank" would have to use the exchange for hedging.

Yes this is the difficult thing I deliberately avoided getting into at this point, how to call the price of btc and not end up 'subsidising' its operation due to market fluctuations. I think a buffered daily or weekly rate might work, it requires proper thought.  

There are different kinds of functions of banks, exchanges, market markers which possibly can be completely re-invented, re-designed. But one of the most crucial aspects are commonly overlooked on this board, and that is the aspects of law. If you the Bitcoin entities have the same kinds of regulations as the standard entities and the interaces are controlled by the existing banks, exchanges, it doesn't much of a difference, at least where that infrastructure exists. It does not make much sense to convert $ into BTC and then into ¥, because you are only going to pay much higher fees most of the time.

It would be up to the individual operator/builder in each case, for example in my country you'd have to apply for a 'fit and proper test', and then apply for the Money Services License.

The real power in the short term is in places where infrastructure does not exist. Say for poor countries where there are not even proper banks and ATMs. Imagine being able to roll out a banking infrastructure around BTC. You would basically save 99% of the costs.

Exactly why this could be a game changer, however I feel you'd need some presence in '1st world' countries so people can send money to their families. This would speed up adoption.

Say if MtGox would be shutdown the price would probably drop by 70% in a matter of days, and the market would dry up. So in this sense BTC is not safe at all.

again, the difficult question, and where this idea may lose its viability, market fluctuation.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Bitcoinorama]

All you need is an android app, a wad of cash, and a booth with a dwarf in it wearing headphones so you can tell him how much to give. Bam. Done

Sorry to rain on your parade, but dwarfs are notoriously expensive to utilise in this fashion;

http://www.cheeky-events.co.uk/dwarf-and-midget-hire.html

*Sigh* Back to the drawing board...

[salty]

All you need is an android app, a wad of cash, and a booth with a dwarf in it wearing headphones so you can tell him how much to give. Bam. Done

This could work..... if the ATM was this shape:

Code:

           .-""-.
          /[] _ _\
         _|_o_LII|_
        / | ==== | \
        |_| ==== |_|
         ||" ||  ||
         ||LI  o ||
         ||'----'||
        /__|    |__\

[Bitcoinorama]

Lulz

[btcmind]

No you missed a point which is quite important. It would not interface with the banking system in any way, ONLY btc-cash.

Err, and who operates the ATM and how? Somebody has to deliver the BTC for fiat.

[mugdesign]

that would be brilliant

[salty]

No you missed a point which is quite important. It would not interface with the banking system in any way, ONLY btc-cash.

Err, and who operates the ATM and how? Somebody has to deliver the BTC for fiat.

The machine operator does, loads it up with however much btc and £10 notes, gets a text off the android machine to say its running low on tenners or it needs emptying...

[salty]

Thinking about the problem of fluctuating exchange rates, what if the machines themselves were an exchange system? You put money in, put in your bid, and wait for another machine or user to want to sell at your bid price....

[townf]

is this the one you are talking about being connected to the banking network or whatever? Because if it is, it seems like cyprus is the last place you want to put it, unless it's some kind of conspiratorial trick...
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-worlds-first-bitcoin-atm-to-dispense-cyprus-bills

[salty]

is this the one you are talking about being connected to the banking network or whatever? Because if it is, it seems like cyprus is the last place you want to put it, unless it's some kind of conspiratorial trick...
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-worlds-first-bitcoin-atm-to-dispense-cyprus-bills

I don't know, the press launch for the bitcoinATM is tomorrow, their website is not very detailed. Maybe I am talking about reinventing their wheel who knows...

[yona]

well, how do you think they intend to overcome the possibility of double spending?
would you have to wait for a confirmation before you receive your cash?

[cbeast]

I think it's a good idea to create a Bitcoin vending machine that dispenses Bitcoins for cash. I think it's a bad idea to create a currency exchange device that converts Bitcoin to local currencies. The former would encourage people to acquire Bitcoins to spend. The latter may be seen as a way to launder money from overseas.