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Author Topic: Are provably fair gambling sites really provable?  (Read 2575 times)
jmigdlc99
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May 21, 2017, 04:00:05 PM
 #1

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

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May 21, 2017, 04:12:31 PM
 #2

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.



Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

jmigdlc99
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May 21, 2017, 04:33:46 PM
 #3

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.



Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

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May 21, 2017, 04:35:26 PM
 #4

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.



Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.

If they change the hashed seed, than hashing it again to verify will return a different result than what the server gave you, so you know they cheated.

Most verifiers check to make sure that the legit hash was used.

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May 21, 2017, 04:38:16 PM
 #5

If they change the hashed seed, than hashing it again to verify will return a different result than what the server gave you, so you know they cheated.

Most verifiers check to make sure that the legit hash was used.

How do the verifiers check the legit/original hash was used?

The hash is provided by the gambling service. They can just issue you a fake hash and provide you with a fake solution and you will never know right?

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May 21, 2017, 04:45:48 PM
 #6

If they change the hashed seed, than hashing it again to verify will return a different result than what the server gave you, so you know they cheated.

Most verifiers check to make sure that the legit hash was used.

How do the verifiers check the legit/original hash was used?

The hash is provided by the gambling service. They can just issue you a fake hash and provide you with a fake solution and you will never know right?

You have a point. I don't have technical analysis to share but for a thousands of professional online gamblers in the world including in the crypto world, Im pretty sure that it should, at least one of them can technically and professionally verified if a certain site has unusual shit doing around their verifier.

Also for a famous gambling site, at least in some majority of the cases, they will not ruin their reputation for that rigged hashes or something as running their operation continously will give them huge earnings than to shut down all the things and get all the money from the players.
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May 21, 2017, 04:47:36 PM
 #7

How do the verifiers check the legit/original hash was used?

The hash is provided by the gambling service. They can just issue you a fake hash and provide you with a fake solution and you will never know right?

What are you talking about? You get the hash from the original server seed. If they provide a fake server seed it will result in a different hash and likewise if they provide a fake hash it will result in a different server seed.

How would they provide you with a fake hash?

They will tell you what kind of hash is used on the server seed and thus you will be able to hash it yourself using any tool to verify that the hashed server seed is actually what they gave you.



Say I'm using SHA256.

I provide you with this as the hashed server seed: c6d5765a8e760bb32eb0ce4c989b415b088790de4d2826695516a367f33b70e8

Afterward, I provide you with the unhashed server seed: actmyname

You can verify it. It's simple and straightforward.

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May 21, 2017, 04:53:03 PM
 #8

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.
Provided they're generated on the client side.Stuff can always be manipulated if it involves server side processing.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?
You need to read this this article  : https://dicesites.com/provably-fair

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?
If you know little bit about web development,you can press the button to see if any network calls are made to generate those seeds.Client side function doesn't invoke any network calls.

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marlboroza
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May 21, 2017, 04:55:12 PM
 #9

If they change the hashed seed, than hashing it again to verify will return a different result than what the server gave you, so you know they cheated.

Most verifiers check to make sure that the legit hash was used.

How do the verifiers check the legit/original hash was used?

The hash is provided by the gambling service. They can just issue you a fake hash and provide you with a fake solution and you will never know right?

Go to google and type sha256 converter and calculator and open one of the links.

Now, go to gambling site and copy your pre-rolled sha256 hash server seed somewhere. When you roll/spin/whatever server seed will be revealed to you.
Now, go to sha256 calculator and copy/paste server seed, you will get sha256 hash for it.

Compare with saved one(pre-rolled one)

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May 21, 2017, 07:55:02 PM
 #10

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

Hi,

If they have explained 100% how their provably fair works then u can check it at any time and it is too risky for them to manipulate with it. BUT i have seen personally some casinos who DO NOT post all info about how their results are calculating so there are bitcoin gambling sites who can use FAKE provably fair.

You should be a smart person to understand how the result is calculating as there are VERY complicated provably fair mechanisms.

Be patient!  Wink

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Wusolini
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May 21, 2017, 08:03:13 PM
 #11

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

Hi,

If they have explained 100% how their provably fair works then u can check it at any time and it is too risky for them to manipulate with it. BUT i have seen personally some casinos who DO NOT post all info about how their results are calculating so there are bitcoin gambling sites who can use FAKE provably fair.

You should be a smart person to understand how the result is calculating as there are VERY complicated provably fair mechanisms.

Be patient!  Wink

Exactly, you need to know how to verify it.


BTT: in past I have tried to explain the principle and was quite good response about ...  see:


...
I can explain it on simple example, (just the principle)

BTCRock - it's game where you have a grid 20x20 and you have 6 attempts to find gold vein.


Their proof is that immediately after solving captcha you can see hash of "gold vein coordinates ".





After you made your 6 tries, a result is shown to you:


 



Proof is that from begining the coordinates  gold vein was [11,9], and was not moved if you luckily hit it ( it would change the hash)

You can check it using: http://www.xorbin.com/tools/sha256-hash-calculator

1 - enter: 65879c50984f5b9ede009960e6efa3c6|[11,9]    (proof of location, shown after game end)
2 - hash it (using sha2586)
3 - you'll get: c0344a8d187371c671d9e16cb27190a74caef8fe32ab66be7287ed050fca2b12       (this is what you know from begining)

tip: for clarity try to change one coordinate and hash it again, will see you got completely different hash.


P.S. This's only principle, and can be used in various way. You should check description on particular site.
 


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May 21, 2017, 09:20:57 PM
 #12

Can you prove all games offered in regards to provably fair or do people here only speak about dice games?

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May 21, 2017, 09:34:10 PM
 #13

Can you prove all games offered in regards to provably fair do people here speak only about dice games?

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but most in house developed games in the Bitcoin gambling world are provably fair.

Provably fair works for most games that aren't dice, as they are based on random number generators, which is the perfect set up for a provably fair game.


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May 21, 2017, 09:40:44 PM
 #14

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but most in house developed games in the Bitcoin gambling world are provably fair.

Provably fair works for most games that aren't dice, as they are based on random number generators, which is the perfect set up for a provably fair game.
In regards to poker i.e.,  I have never heard that players can request a seed in advance?

And if you play slots, you can take a look at the seeds in advance?

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May 21, 2017, 10:00:00 PM
 #15

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but most in house developed games in the Bitcoin gambling world are provably fair.

Provably fair works for most games that aren't dice, as they are based on random number generators, which is the perfect set up for a provably fair game.
In regards to poker i.e.,  I have never heard that players can request a seed in advance?

And if you play slots, you can take a look at the seeds in advance?

To be really provably fair you should be able to check (and also change) the client seed in advance (server seed are published later e.g. next day)

I'm pretty sure the fairness system can be applied for poker as well ( in principle it's enough when the site can prove the result was known at the game begining and has not changed)  

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May 21, 2017, 10:30:07 PM
 #16

Could anyone host a simulation of a provably fair dice so we can test some strategies on them? because either God is messing with us when we deploy strategies which mathematically defeats the house or the house is somehow cheating.
Hell those so called experts missed the asicboost and only a few people figured that out, I wonder what are the odds some day some one finds a hole in provably fair.

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May 21, 2017, 10:37:40 PM
 #17

Yes, gambling sites provide us with server seeds that can be verified.

But how do we really know that these seeds are used in actual gambling process?

Isnt it possible they are just displaying server seeds and hashes that we can verify but in reality the server seeds they are using in the back-end functions of the game are actually different/rigged?

Check this topic, it may help you to understand how provably fair works Smiley

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May 22, 2017, 07:40:59 AM
 #18

Games that provide you a new serverseed and clientseed every roll/round can typically only be trusted if you set a client seed every single time you place a bet which requires insane discipline. The dice sites and games like bustabit feature high standards of provably fair, majority of bitcoin casinos I've seen and software like that of softswiss are not really getting the point of 'provably fair' is. Provably fair has just as much to do with the fact that a result cannot be manipulated rather than simply the fact that it can be verified to match.

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May 22, 2017, 07:54:14 AM
 #19

above ald explain so many.
maybe this topic can also go top topic and fixed it. as btc casino special on provable fair.

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May 22, 2017, 10:33:16 AM
 #20

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but most in house developed games in the Bitcoin gambling world are provably fair.

Provably fair works for most games that aren't dice, as they are based on random number generators, which is the perfect set up for a provably fair game.
In regards to poker i.e.,  I have never heard that players can request a seed in advance?

And if you play slots, you can take a look at the seeds in advance?
Yes... of course... Assuming it is a legit gambling site...


They even explain the methodology used to turn a random number into the game result:


You can do similar things with Blackjack:


and Roulette:


At the end of the day... pretty much any game can be worked out as relating to a "random number"... all they do is assign a slot "image" or a playing card to each number generated...

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