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Author Topic: Am I mining or just running up my electric bill?  (Read 1114 times)
RudEv (OP)
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May 02, 2013, 03:38:08 PM
 #1

Not sure if my expectations are just too high or if I might not have configured something correctly.  I'm using GUIMiner along with two Gigabyte HD7970 GPU's.  I'm setup for Solo mining.  My Bitcoin-QT is synced and it looks like the OpenCL stuff is connected correctly as GUIMiner says it's mining.  I'm averaging about 1GH/s, but have not seen any transactions or BTC come through yet in the Bitcoin-QT app.  Even when I set the display to show nanoBTC or microBTC, I don't see anything.  I've been running the rig 24/7 for the last week.  Should I be seeing something?  How can I tell if I'm actually mining?  The column under Accepted shows about 56K and (300+).  Does that mean it's working and I just need to be patient?  Do I need to switch to a different miner?  Any good information, including links to other topics would be great or point me where I need to do my research.  Specs of my rig below.

Single AMD FX1 Black series 3.6GHz quad core CPU
8GB RAM
Samsung Pro 128GB SSD
Gigabyte AMD mobo
2 x Gigabyte HD 7970 GPU's
Gabi
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May 02, 2013, 03:42:41 PM
Last edit: May 02, 2013, 04:50:14 PM by Gabi
 #2

With your setup with solomining you will find on average a block every like a bit more than 2 weeks.

Be patient (or pool mine...)

Edit: i'm totally wrong, it takes 2 years for you to find a block

LameCooter
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May 02, 2013, 03:46:05 PM
 #3

2 weeks? If he's mining for BTC @ 1ghs it will take him almost 2 years... (500.9 days) at TODAYS difficulty.  Shocked Looky
Birdy
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May 02, 2013, 03:48:14 PM
 #4

If you are solo mining, you have a small chance to get 25 Bitcoins (the chance is depending on your GH/S).
You don't receive small payments over time this way.
RudEv (OP)
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May 02, 2013, 03:54:52 PM
 #5

Ok, that makes sense.  I know that going solo is the hardway to go and would take longer to see any results.  I seen some posts on the GUIMiner support thread that showed quick results, so I wasn't sure if I had set everything up correctly. Was more concerned whether or not I was actually mining and that it's configured right.  I'm going to look into the pooling and research that.  Does your internet speed also affect your ability to mine? 
RudEv (OP)
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May 02, 2013, 03:56:51 PM
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Ok, that makes sense.  I know that going solo is the hardway to go and would take longer to see any results.  I seen some posts on the GUIMiner support thread that showed quick results, so I wasn't sure if I had set everything up correctly. Was more concerned whether or not I was actually mining and that it's configured right.  I'm going to look into the pooling and research that.  Does your internet speed also affect your ability to mine? 

So if I understand correctly, if I'm solo mining.  I have to solve a whole block before receiving anything?  If I join a pool, I'm "paid" by how much work my machine does if that pool solves the block?
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May 02, 2013, 03:59:53 PM
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Ok, that makes sense.  I know that going solo is the hardway to go and would take longer to see any results.  I seen some posts on the GUIMiner support thread that showed quick results, so I wasn't sure if I had set everything up correctly. Was more concerned whether or not I was actually mining and that it's configured right.  I'm going to look into the pooling and research that.  Does your internet speed also affect your ability to mine? 

So if I understand correctly, if I'm solo mining.  I have to solve a whole block before receiving anything?  If I join a pool, I'm "paid" by how much work my machine does if that pool solves the block?

Yes that is correct, when joining a pool you receive consistent payouts depending on the amount of work/shares your machine does, as opposed to waiting x amount of days to solve one block solo mining until you receive the 25 BTC Bounty.
Birdy
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May 02, 2013, 04:01:02 PM
 #8

Ok, that makes sense.  I know that going solo is the hardway to go and would take longer to see any results.  I seen some posts on the GUIMiner support thread that showed quick results, so I wasn't sure if I had set everything up correctly. Was more concerned whether or not I was actually mining and that it's configured right.  I'm going to look into the pooling and research that.  Does your internet speed also affect your ability to mine?  

So if I understand correctly, if I'm solo mining.  I have to solve a whole block before receiving anything?  If I join a pool, I'm "paid" by how much work my machine does if that pool solves the block?
Yes, that's right.
Altough pools may have fees, so overall it's a bit less for you.
On the other hand for a lot of people receiving small payments over time is better, because there is less luck involved.
RudEv (OP)
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May 02, 2013, 04:11:41 PM
 #9

So theoretically the online calculators are really a "best case scenario" where at the current difficulty rate, if you were the only one mining, this is what you could expect.  Safe to assume those calculators don't take into account the other miners?  Or is that what factors the difficulty rate?  And I really appreciate all the quick replies.  And can anyone respond to the question if your internet B/W connection has any affect to mining? Or is this a searchable topic previously covered?
Birdy
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May 02, 2013, 04:20:11 PM
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So theoretically the online calculators are really a "best case scenario" where at the current difficulty rate, if you were the only one mining, this is what you could expect.  Safe to assume those calculators don't take into account the other miners?  Or is that what factors the difficulty rate?  And I really appreciate all the quick replies.  And can anyone respond to the question if your internet B/W connection has any affect to mining? Or is this a searchable topic previously covered?
I guess online calculators will include the difficulty rating, otherwise they would be trashy ^^
But I'm not into mining - I'm only informed about the general process, because I wanted to know a bit about Bitcoin before investing in it, so I don't really know how good they are.
I don't know how strong mining is affected by your bandwith.
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May 02, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
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So theoretically the online calculators are really a "best case scenario" where at the current difficulty rate, if you were the only one mining, this is what you could expect.  Safe to assume those calculators don't take into account the other miners?  Or is that what factors the difficulty rate?  And I really appreciate all the quick replies.  And can anyone respond to the question if your internet B/W connection has any affect to mining? Or is this a searchable topic previously covered?
That is incorrect.  Online calculators take into account current difficulty (i.e., other miners).

Looking at an online calculator (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator), you would make about 0.05 BTC/day with 1 GH/s.  If you mine with a pool, you could expect to see around 0.05 BTC/day deposited into your QT wallet.  If you solo mine, then you will only receive coins when you find a block (25 BTC), and you would expect to find a block every 25 / 0.05 = 500 days on average.  So it's the same expected BTC, just different amounts of variance.
RudEv (OP)
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May 02, 2013, 04:44:04 PM
 #12


That is incorrect.  Online calculators take into account current difficulty (i.e., other miners).

Looking at an online calculator (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator), you would make about 0.05 BTC/day with 1 GH/s.  If you mine with a pool, you could expect to see around 0.05 BTC/day deposited into your QT wallet.  If you solo mine, then you will only receive coins when you find a block (25 BTC), and you would expect to find a block every 25 / 0.05 = 500 days on average.  So it's the same expected BTC, just different amounts of variance.

Ah ok!  <light bulb goes on>  I wasn't sure if the difficulty rate was proportionate to the # number of miners, and probably more to do with the combined hashing capacity of those miners correct? 

Is mining cumulative?  Meaning if I wait those 500 days I should see a payout of the 25BTC or does everything start over once a block is solved? Excuse me if this is stated in Satoshi's original paper, I'm still working through it.   
responsiblepilot738
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May 02, 2013, 04:45:50 PM
 #13

 The difficulty will increase by alot soon making it almost not worth it to solo mine unless your getting a super high hash rate.
Birdy
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May 02, 2013, 04:47:44 PM
 #14

The difficulty will increase by alot soon making it almost not worth it to solo mine unless your getting a super high hash rate.

This is not true, it's just chance versus stable income.
It's more like a lot of people cannot afford to rely on chance when they have to pay the bills.
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May 02, 2013, 04:49:21 PM
 #15

2 weeks? If he's mining for BTC @ 1ghs it will take him almost 2 years... (500.9 days) at TODAYS difficulty.  Shocked Looky
Omg you are right! Sorry, 2 weeks is for 1 BTC.

Yup, it will take almost 2 years for a block.

DannyHamilton
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May 02, 2013, 11:32:01 PM
 #16

Is mining cumulative?  Meaning if I wait those 500 days I should see a payout of the 25BTC or does everything start over once a block is solved? Excuse me if this is stated in Satoshi's original paper, I'm still working through it.    

Mining is like rolling dice.  (Ok, a die with 1.16 x 1077 sides, but still, the analogy holds up pretty well).

Lets say you roll a normal 6 sided die.  I set a difficulty saying that you "win" anytime the die comes up with a number less than 6.  Most rolls you are going to "win".  Then I decide that the difficulty needs to be increased.  So, now I set a difficulty saying that you "win" anytime the die comes up with a number less than 4.  You will "win" about half the time you roll.  I can increase the difficulty further and state that you "win" anytime the die comes up with a number less than 2.  Now on average you'll have to roll the die 6 times before you'll "win" once.  It is entirely possible that you could roll a 1 a few times in a row.  It is also entirely possible that you could roll 18 times without ever rolling a 1.

If someone else is rolling their own die, it has no effect on how long it will take you to roll a 1.  They may roll a 1 sooner than you, they may roll a 1 later than you.


Now imagine that same die with a LOT more sides.  Hard to picture a die like that in your mind, but essentially that's what is happening when you are solo mining.  Your computer very quickly (millions of times per second) computes a hash that results in what is effectively a random number between 0 and 1.16 x 1077.  If the number is less than the target difficulty, you "win" and get the 25 BTC.  If the number is not less than the target difficulty, then you "roll again".  You just keep going until you are lucky enough to end up with a low enough hash.

Meanwhile, every other miner and pool is doing the exact same thing.  Whether they happen to find a random hash that is less than the target (and how many times per second they can compute a hash) doesn't directly effect your ability to do the same.  If they happen to find one, everyone just creates a new block and continues generating their hashes.

Now, here's the catch.  That "target difficulty" is regularly adjusted, and it is adjusted based on how fast hashes less than the current target difficulty are showing up.  So as more and more people generate more and more hashes simultaneously, the odds of someone finding one increase (imagine 2 people each rolling 1 die, vs 10 people each rolling 10 dice.  The number 1 will show up a lot more often in the second example).  As the average time between hashes decreases, if it is less than 10 minutes, the target is lowered making everyone less likely to generate a hash value that is less than the target.  So while their rolls do not change your odds of solving at the current difficulty, they can influence future difficulties (it adjusts approximately every 2 weeks) making you less likely to "solve" a block in the future.

When someone says "it takes 2 years for you to find a block", that's a lot like saying "it takes 6 rolls to roll a 1".  What they are really saying is that on average if the difficulty stays exactly what it is today, you would be able to find 1 low enough hash for every 2 years of continuous hashing.  Now, it is possible for you to find 2 or 3 hashes low enough, but it is also possible that you could go 6 years (or more) without ever finding a low enough hash.

Much like with dice, as you "roll more dice at once" your odds of hitting a target on each attempt increase.  So, pools issue work to all their miners and get the benefit of all that hashing power increasing their odds of solving a block.  When they do, they generally split it up proportional to the amount of hashing power each individual contributed to the effort.  (The guy who rolled 2 dice gets payed twice as much as the guy who rolled only 1 die, and half as much as the guy who rolled 4 dice regardless of which of the 7 dice hit the target).
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May 03, 2013, 12:34:33 AM
Last edit: May 03, 2013, 12:48:55 AM by Malawi
 #17

I'm at the Slush pool, and we just had a particularly hard block. Here is the stats:

time to solve            tot shares              my shares        My payout
11:08:44                    84660645           8462           0.00291395

My hasrate is approx 900Mhash - Imagine doing that block alone....

Edit: That block would have taken me 12,5 years alone if my calculations are correct.

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May 03, 2013, 12:41:04 AM
 #18

To add -- a lot of pools are free, and the "expected" % revenue donation is usually ~2-5%, so it shouldn't be having a massive impact on your expected profit. PPS pools can be a bit more expensive because they remove the variance of the pool finding a block (you get paid each time you submit a share instead of being paid for your % work when someone in the pool solves a block), and pools want to stack the cards in their favor (because it is a lot like gambling), but pools do frequently either have to lower what they pay miners in PPS scenarios or remove the option entirely if they run into a string of unusually "difficult" blocks.
RudEv (OP)
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May 09, 2013, 02:50:21 AM
 #19

Thanks everyone for all the input.  It definitely helps sort out the whole mining issues I've had.  Last few questions:

When joining a pool, other than helping to solve the hash and helping to generate revenue for myself, others and the pool owners, am I contributing to the bigger picture of BitCoin? 

Outside of development (which I lack any skill for programming) and evangilism, what other ways can I or my machine contribute to the bitcoin community? 
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May 09, 2013, 03:05:30 AM
 #20

I'd think about pool mining. Also get a Kill-A-Watt or something similar and see how much your entire rig consumes from the wall then plug in your info into http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ and see if you are doing ok. I think you'll be making some amount for a while if you already own the hardware and don't have to consider the cost of the hardware.
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