[ENDED] ChipMixer Signature Campaign | Sr Member+

[dkbit98]

I've added a mirror of the spreadsheet to CryptPad: https://cryptpad.fr/sheet/#/2/sheet/view/eSplm+1JhNSpZ2vhLc8J08tS0p2nWrp0CiVXVjIQEnE/embed/
Getting this to work was a bit annoying (cryptpad broke trying to import the CM sheet quite a few times, likely because it's a pretty big spreadsheet) so please let me know if this is something you benefit from/would like to see continue going forward  

I like it, let's continue with de-googling mission
Everything works fine for me with cryptpad.fr, but I just wish if it could load a bit faster and work with dark themes.
I think that n0nce or someone else recently posted another alternative called ethercalc.net that load super fast, but I am not sure it's encrypted and fully open source like cryptpad.

[RickDeckard]

I've added a mirror of the spreadsheet to CryptPad: https://cryptpad.fr/sheet/#/2/sheet/view/eSplm+1JhNSpZ2vhLc8J08tS0p2nWrp0CiVXVjIQEnE/embed/
Getting this to work was a bit annoying (cryptpad broke trying to import the CM sheet quite a few times, likely because it's a pretty big spreadsheet) so please let me know if this is something you benefit from/would like to see continue going forward  

(...)
Everything works fine for me with cryptpad.fr, but I just wish if it could load a bit faster and work with dark themes.
(...)

I reckon that with the ChipMixer spreadsheet it takes some time loading all the information. Regarding dark themes, it actually has for both the interface and ONLYOFFICE! For changing to the dark theme in the CryptoPad interface - as announced on their blog[1] - just go over to Settings -> Appearance -> Dark Mode. To change to dark theme in a ONLYOFFICE sheet just head over to File-> Advanced Settings...-> Interface Theme -> Dark. Now you should be able to run in a fully dark theme
[1]https://blog.cryptpad.org/2021/02/24/status-feb-2021/

[Lucius]

Genuine question: Why are people looking at the spreadsheet? What information are they taking from it? They have no need to know other users' addresses or post counts, and they can figure out how many of their own posts have been counted based on how much they are paid.
~snip~

Surely you remember that not so long ago, one member was caught with his 2 alt accounts due to the public data of the campaign - and in the event that this data was visible only to the manager, he might still be abusing it today. I think the whole thing makes sense because of transparency, although I personally (and many others) wouldn't mind if the whole list were private and only available to those who would ask for it for some good reasons (not out of mere curiosity).


Regarding CryptPad, I tried to open the link via TOR and it was very slow, about 4 minutes for the list to load completely.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Surely you remember that not so long ago, one member was caught with his 2 alt accounts due to the public data of the campaign - and in the event that this data was visible only to the manager, he might still be abusing it today.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this link was made purely on the blockchain history of the payment addresses. Making such a link would still have been possible without the spreadsheet simply by pulling the payment addresses from the weekly payment transaction. The investigator might not have known the exact users linked to those addresses, but could easily just pass the blockchain evidence to DarkStar_ who could then respond accordingly.

I see no reason for there to be a public record linking usernames to addresses.

[NeuroticFish]

I see no reason for there to be a public record linking usernames to addresses.

This is correct. But then probably the whole procedure of joining to a campaign should be changed, from privately giving out addresses (by participants and possibly by campaign manager too) to private access to the spreadsheet for the participants.

However:
* this would be a huge hassle for CMs
* since members come and go the spreadsheet can become sooner or later almost public again if it isn't that everybody can see only his records
* this means that neither the CM nor the participants cannot be properly checked; and humans are inclined to cheat, you know...

So.. this half-solution is imho more hassle for not much of use/improvement, and.. I don't know how can this be done really good.
Don't take me wrong, I'd like to see a better solution. But for now, we don't have one.

[o_e_l_e_o]

* since members come and go the spreadsheet can become sooner or later almost public again if it isn't that everybody can see only his records
* this means that neither the CM nor the participants cannot be properly checked; and humans are inclined to cheat, you know...

As I mentioned above, I can see the argument for a public spreadsheet in short lived campaigns, those which have a high turn over of users, or those with untrusted managers. But in a stable campaign such as ChipMixer, which adds or removes users only a couple of times a year and is managed by a highly trusted manager, then I see no benefit. Whereas the benefit to privacy of not having one is significant.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Whereas the benefit to privacy of not having one is significant.

But, there's no privacy in that part to begin with. Anyone with trivial blockchain analysis can figure out that certain transactions, which are sent in a specific time, every week, using the same addresses as inputs and outputs come from this campaign. A little more work, and you can figure out who owns which address, because participants are paid according to the number of posts they make, which is already public information.

[o_e_l_e_o]

A little more work, and you can figure out who owns which address, because participants are paid according to the number of posts they make, which is already public information.

It wouldn't be public information without a spreadsheet.

Yes, a determined adversary could certainly mimic DarkStar_'s job for several months and start to figure out who is who, but there is a big difference between that and a spreadsheet linking names and addresses. Just like someone could follow you for two weeks to learn your daily routine and when the best time would be to break in to your house, but there is a big difference between that and sticking a note on your door saying "I'm going to be at work for the next 12 hours".

And of course once people start changing their addresses, then the whole process becomes more difficult and less accurate.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Yes, a determined adversary could certainly mimic DarkStar_'s job for several months and start to figure out who is who

Several months? One to two weeks is enough to figure out what's DarkStar's payout address.

Just like someone could follow you for two weeks to learn your daily routine and when the best time would be to break in to your house, but there is a big difference between that and sticking a note on your door saying "I'm going to be at work for the next 12 hours".

As if you had a giant ChipMixer sign below your public posts which would indicate how much you make, and with whom you work with.  

[o_e_l_e_o]

Several months? One to two weeks is enough to figure out what's DarkStar's payout address.

It's not enough to figure out which address is mine, though. On the last payment there are 12 addresses which received the maximum payout.

[PrivacyG]

The replacement of Spreadsheet sounds so amazing.  Keep it up, Dark Star.  And F Google.

But, there's no privacy in that part to begin with. Anyone with trivial blockchain analysis can figure out that certain transactions, which are sent in a specific time, every week, using the same addresses as inputs and outputs come from this campaign. A little more work, and you can figure out who owns which address, because participants are paid according to the number of posts they make, which is already public information.

Disagree.

You can see there is a transaction spent every week in a specific time with the same Inputs and Outputs.  But.  Chip Mixer is a Privacy Friendly service and the Campaign can be organized as such too.  I do not think participants would not like it.  The manager can have a local file containing participants, payments and all of that.  I really believe it is very useful for a manager.  But I agree with o_e_l_e_o.  An online Spreadsheet is not necessary.

Most of the Campaigns I participated in had a Google Spreadsheet with all sorts of information on it.  Want to see how you are doing as a participant?  Go to Spreadsheet.  Are you still a participant?  The manager never sends a PM or publicly announces it.  You can find out by checking just the Spreadsheet.  But, wait.  Google does not allow non Java Script browsing at all.  Most of the links are unusable or display blank pages without it.  So there it goes.  I can not check the Spreadsheet anyway.

There are solutions for everything, I believe.  A manager can run a Campaign in a more Privacy friendly manner.  Applications can be done without posting Addresses.  Just user name, post count and Merits.  Addresses can be sent through PM.  Payments can be sent separately instead of batches.  If I was a Chip Mixer participant, I would agree to be paid the amount minus fees.

In fact.  What if Dark Star paid from a Chip Mixer chip every week instead of using the same Address?  What if Chip Mixer members gave Dark Star a list of 10 Addresses and Dark Star paid them weekly in a random Address from a Chip Mixer chip.  Just an idea.

Payment amounts are based on post counts per week.  Sure.  But not all posts are counted.  Right?  How accurate can a Blockchain Analysis tool be to link it all so accurately to participants.  Why would anyone now even bother doing a Chip Mixer investigation any more.  Too much work for what?  A list of how much participants earn from this Campaign?

All of this is what quickly came to my mind.  There may be big flaws in every thing I said.  And I am sorry for Dark Star because all of this might be a big extra stress to him and now he might hate me.  But maybe he actually likes at least one of my ideas.

Anyway.  As I said above.  Solutions can be found for all the issues.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[NeuroticFish]

* since members come and go the spreadsheet can become sooner or later almost public again if it isn't that everybody can see only his records
* this means that neither the CM nor the participants cannot be properly checked; and humans are inclined to cheat, you know...

As I mentioned above, I can see the argument for a public spreadsheet in short lived campaigns, those which have a high turn over of users, or those with untrusted managers. But in a stable campaign such as ChipMixer, which adds or removes users only a couple of times a year and is managed by a highly trusted manager, then I see no benefit. Whereas the benefit to privacy of not having one is significant.

Well, another use case is users sharing the link to others from outside. I would add that I was there on the use case of having a spreadsheet. The direction of not having any at all is... intriguing.
And I agree 100% that not having one at all significantly benefit on privacy. Just then there won't be any choice for scrutiny (of course, it can be debatable whether we need that or not).
Interestingly we may get from 2 spreadsheets (as now, although temporarily) to none (at least not publicly).

What if Chip Mixer members gave Dark Star a list of 10 Addresses and Dark Star paid them weekly in a random Address from a Chip Mixer chip.  Just an idea.

Not a bad idea, just it can be prone to mistakes, since as we stand now OP will have to handle correctly 540 addresses.
I would clearly not mid to get the coins sent to a private list of addresses.

---
However, private spreadsheet and private list of addresses... this can probably work at ChipMixer and maybe a handful of other campaigns, but in most cases (campaigns and campaign managers) it can become - sooner or later - the recipe for disaster.

[LoyceV]

In fact.  What if Dark Star paid from a Chip Mixer chip every week instead of using the same Address?  What if Chip Mixer members gave Dark Star a list of 10 Addresses and Dark Star paid them weekly in a random Address from a Chip Mixer chip.  Just an idea.

I've thought about this, but it's prone to error. Manually selecting 50+ addresses per week every week means thousands of addresses per year. The only way to rule out mistakes is by automating the entire process.

I've also thought of the possibility to be paid in CM chips directly, instead of on-chain, but that's also more likely to cause mistakes. It's much easier to leave it to the user to mix their coins if they want.

[BlackHatCoiner]

We can think of various ways to enhance privacy when it comes to the weekly payment. But, I don't like forcing my fellows participants do something that I may find bad practice for myself, for their good. If they don't prioritize privacy in Bitcoin transactions, coercion isn't appropriate. I know that we can "split" to one group that does prioritize privacy, and to another that is neutral (backwards compatible technically ), but I just don't find a reason. As I said, posts are public. Even a 10 year old kid, if you give it an hour can work out the total money each participant has received this month, without looking at the spreadsheet. In other words: it's a false sense of privacy.

Now as for the chips: If you want them, go and get them from the onion site. Not from the forum, introducing further risks.

[aesma]

I like the irony of discussing all these privacy issues on a campaign thread for a product that allows you to...get privacy for your coins.

[PrivacyG]

I like the irony of discussing all these privacy issues on a campaign thread for a product that allows you to...get privacy for your coins.

Well.  I think the way this Campaign is managed is not really an issue at all.  It is not like Dark Star is requesting personal documents from the participants.  After all, it is their responsibility to keep their Privacy levels up and strong.  Some body who does not care at all about it will hand out Dark Star an Address straight from Coinbase or something like that anyway.

If Chip Mixer participants care for their Privacy, there are so many ways you can break the link once Dark Star sends out payments to personal Addresses.  But, if there is a will to make things more private straight from the management on, I will be here for it.  It complicates things a little bit.  Sure.  But to me it is always worth it in the end.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[DarkStar_]

Payments for this week of the campaign have been sent, using an exchange rate of 1 BTC = $23200 USD. (b8a1ce7a7426a00833a74a1fcaa105a6c11bc417f3ac1d5c0cb8ec83ba7b2d1c)

Genuine question: Why are people looking at the spreadsheet? What information are they taking from it? They have no need to know other users' addresses or post counts, and they can figure out how many of their own posts have been counted based on how much they are paid.

There's an argument for allowing people to easily see how many of their posts were rejected, without needing to do math. Manually counting the number of posts you made last campaign period is a bit annoying, and will discourage people from checking if they were paid correctly.

In fact.  What if Dark Star paid from a Chip Mixer chip every week instead of using the same Address?  What if Chip Mixer members gave Dark Star a list of 10 Addresses and Dark Star paid them weekly in a random Address from a Chip Mixer chip.  Just an idea.

I've thought about this, but it's prone to error. Manually selecting 50+ addresses per week every week means thousands of addresses per year. The only way to rule out mistakes is by automating the entire process.

In the end, this isn't a perfect process either, especially if people provide addresses via forum PM due to Cloudflare. I've considered building software to do something like this (more likely it would be in the form of automated address changes), but I'm hesitant to trust any software I write with real sums of money  

I won't rule making large changes out, but ultimately there will always be trust needed somewhere. If you're after the highest level of privacy, your privacy model should not rely on needing to trust me to keep your payout addresses private.

[joker_josue]

I won't rule making large changes out, but ultimately there will always be trust needed somewhere. If you're after the highest level of privacy, your privacy model should not rely on needing to trust me to keep your payout addresses private.

I had to comment because I thought this was the best sentence in that debate. I apologize for meddling in the subject.

This campaign has existed since 2017, and since its inception it has worked in the same way - with the respective updates over time. Those who signed up knew the rules and accepted them. Of course, things can be done differently, as long as it's better for everyone. Managing a campaign of this size is not easy. Increasing the workload at the time of payments, I think that's everything you don't want, so there are no mistakes.

When information is shared with a third party, that same information is no longer private. This must be the first principle to take into account in order to have privacy.

Therefore, it is easier for each user to manage how he receives money from this campaign, than for DarkStar_ to do this work for the users. I believe that everyone here knows the best way to receive payment for this campaign, and then use the mix to divert attention from the final destination of the money.

Good week everyone!

[n0nce]

In the end, this isn't a perfect process either, especially if people provide addresses via forum PM due to Cloudflare. I've considered building software to do something like this (more likely it would be in the form of automated address changes), but I'm hesitant to trust any software I write with real sums of money 

I won't rule making large changes out, but ultimately there will always be trust needed somewhere. If you're after the highest level of privacy, your privacy model should not rely on needing to trust me to keep your payout addresses private.

You don't need to write any software. Just give us your PGP public key, we send you our encrypted addresses over any insecure communication channel (forum post, direct message, anything) and you decrypt them on your machine. Problem solved.

[summonerrk]

Hi, guys!
Tell me please is make a sense to waiting for a free slot in this signature campaign? If its not hard - answer please when last participant was accepted?