VOTE Are you offended by these police officers?

[PeterTheGrape]

Deborah Danner was a 66 year old woman who had schizophrenia. She was frail, to the extreme.

Last year a group of police officers went to her home while she was flipped out and one of them shot her, claiming that she came at him with a baseball bat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Deborah_Danner

The other officers who were present claimed they were not in the room when the shooting occured.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Deborah_Danner

Yesterday the police department, under pressure from the public, charged the officer with murder. This is widely considered symbolic, since there is virtually no chance of real punishment, but it was also a pleasant surprise to people who support some accountability for police officers.

After she was killed there was no effort by the police to send any resources toward her burial etc.

-----

An NYPD cop makes a nice salary http://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page

Starting salary: $42,500
Salary after 5 ½ years: $85,292.
Including holiday pay, longevity pay, uniform allowance, night differential and overtime, police officers may potentially earn over $100,000 per year.
Additional Benefits

    27 Paid vacation days after 5 years of service
    Unlimited sick leave with full pay
    Selection of medical benefit packages
    Prescription, dental, and vision coverage
    Annuity fund
    Deferred Compensation Plan, 401K and I.R.A.
    Optional retirement at one half salary after 22 years of service
    Annual $12,000 Variable Supplement Fund (upon retirement)
    Excellent promotional opportunities

Most NYPD cops get well over $90,000 a year not including overtime.

But the real payoff is in the benefits. Contributions to retirement accounts and other benefits guarantee that most cops can retire millionaires.

-----

After the cop was charged yesterday, his buddies on the police force made posters that contained explicit threats against the commisioner http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/top-o-neill-targeted-anger-sergeant-murder-charge-article-1.3216290

They also opened gofundme pages, including

https://www.gofundme.com/sgt-hugh-barry

and

https://www.gofundme.com/supportsgtbarry

None of those cops gave a dollar to pay burial costs for the person he killed. But they are likely to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for the cop.

Do these cops look like entitled little scumbags? Or do you think they are public servants? 

[1714805294]

1714805294

[leopard2]

Meanwhile, in Germany:

Migrants smash cops face in, walk free..

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/03/09/german-police-attacked-group-young-muslims/

http://www.dw.com/en/mad-as-hell-family-hospitalizes-cops-over-parking-fine/a-36378270

[PeterTheGrape]

Meanwhile, in Germany:

Migrants smash cops face in, walk free..

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/03/09/german-police-attacked-group-young-muslims/

http://www.dw.com/en/mad-as-hell-family-hospitalizes-cops-over-parking-fine/a-36378270

Breitbart doesn't really count as news, unless you count the onion as news too? Here are some secret Trump documents then http://www.theonion.com/trumpdocuments

Regarding second article, where does it say they walk free?

Ralf Jäger, the justice minister for the state of North Rhine-Westphalia, said the men would get the brunt of the law if found guilty. "What began with disrespect for members of the order enforcement ended in a brutal attack on the police who were called to help," Jäger said. The justice minister added that, as he sees it, such attacks are unacceptable.

German police have had a rough go of it lately. Recent reports connected several officers with the far-right Reichsbürger movement, which has also staged attacks on police, and at least one former member of their ranks is on trial for a cannibalistic murder.

[Sithara007]

It was an unfortunate incident. But I will give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. Perhaps they were unaware that the lady had schizophrenia. What you are supposed to do, when someone charges at you armed with a baseball bat?

[PeterTheGrape]

It was an unfortunate incident. But I will give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. Perhaps they were unaware that the lady had schizophrenia. What you are supposed to do, when someone charges at you armed with a baseball bat?

She was a 66 year old woman who was in limited shape.

The issue is that he would not have done that with a big guy. He would have taken out his sap or mace.

Many people who are attracted to weaker people, because they like overpowering them, become police officers. It is a connection that is very strong and historically true across cultures.

In the United States police are famous for a lopsided treatment of vulnerable people, especially women. Many police who would never think of using extreme force against a man unless absolutely necessary are quick to "show who's boss" to a person they know can be beat easily.

The vast majority of cases where police officers prey on women do not make the news, but people who have worked in various fields know that it is a severe problem. In this case the victim was a woman, a schizophrenic, elderly, frail etc so she was too attractive as a victim to the cop. His buddies have the same attitude but they know it's "all for one and one for all" or they will all fall. Like somebody famous said in the U.S. war against Britain, "We all hang together or we will each hang separately".

A secondary issue is the selective choice of which police officers are 'defensible' by the gang. A cop who plays the game will be defended at all costs against outsiders, no matter what he does. A cop who pokes fun at the fake macho culture will become a target. You can research the so called "nypd cannibal cop". His offense was making fun of the cops who pretend to be pillars of the community. A complex criminal charge was made against him that gave the appearance that he was a dangerous person hiding behind a badge. The truth is that he was only guilty of making fun of the real predators. Likewise, in this case, there will be threats against the judge, by police officers, to force the case the gang's way. There will be all sorts of crimes commited by police officers to try and help their buddy, and not a bit of it will make the news.

Now there are a lot of people with resources to monitor the police, so we'll see what happens.

[HabBear]

In general, and regardless of rank, location, or assignment, Police Officers are granted greater freedom than regular citizens. These people are given the authority to enforce laws over the rest of us. The can control citizens in times of chaos. They can break laws for the purpose of fighting crime.

This greater freedom and authority only works if they are also held to a higher level of accountability than regular citizens. Since they have so much authority their actions must be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. The case of the elderly woman getting shot, yes that Officer should be charged for the overly abusive response he took to that specific threat. A baseball bat from a 66 y/o woman won't kill him, hell he probably could have caught the bat with his hand after one swing!

As for the NYPD Officer below, do you know what the cost of living is in NYC? $99,000 per year is a lower middle-class salary in NYC.

This article claims middle class income in NYC as $120,000. http://www.npr.org/2016/07/06/484987315/middle-class-earners-struggle-to-pay-rent-in-new-york-city

An NYPD cop makes a nice salary http://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page

Starting salary: $42,500
Salary after 5 ½ years: $85,292.
Including holiday pay, longevity pay, uniform allowance, night differential and overtime, police officers may potentially earn over $100,000 per year.
Additional Benefits

    27 Paid vacation days after 5 years of service
    Unlimited sick leave with full pay
    Selection of medical benefit packages
    Prescription, dental, and vision coverage
    Annuity fund
    Deferred Compensation Plan, 401K and I.R.A.
    Optional retirement at one half salary after 22 years of service
    Annual $12,000 Variable Supplement Fund (upon retirement)
    Excellent promotional opportunities

Most NYPD cops get well over $90,000 a year not including overtime.

But the real payoff is in the benefits. Contributions to retirement accounts and other benefits guarantee that most cops can retire millionaires. 

[PeterTheGrape]

In general, and regardless of rank, location, or assignment, Police Officers are granted greater freedom than regular citizens. These people are given the authority to enforce laws over the rest of us. The can control citizens in times of chaos. They can break laws for the purpose of fighting crime.

This greater freedom and authority only works if they are also held to a higher level of accountability than regular citizens. Since they have so much authority their actions must be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. The case of the elderly woman getting shot, yes that Officer should be charged for the overly abusive response he took to that specific threat. A baseball bat from a 66 y/o woman won't kill him, hell he probably could have caught the bat with his hand after one swing!

As for the NYPD Officer below, do you know what the cost of living is in NYC? $99,000 per year is a lower middle-class salary in NYC.

This article claims middle class income in NYC as $120,000. http://www.npr.org/2016/07/06/484987315/middle-class-earners-struggle-to-pay-rent-in-new-york-city

...

Your article doesn't actually say that.

Anyway, a lot of people work in the city but live just outside the city. Rents in Manhatten are very high unless you have a rent controlled apartment, but a lot of people live on long island or other areas that are a short commute.

The high salaries of police officers are not because the cost of living is that high.

The high salaries come from the unions having extorted high pay from the city for decades. Police in NY used to all threaten to call in sick unless their union got all the benefits and raises they wanted, which they usually did. Google "Blue Flu" and you'll see why their pay is so high.

[Mometaskers]

Why did they go to the old lady's house in the first place? And yeah, shooting an octogenarian with a baseball bat is undoubtedly overkill. Heck, even punching the woman would have already caused significant damage. Aren't they even trained how to disarm people?

As for threatening the commissioner, that's the height of hooliganism. Can't they just admit they fucked up? And the gofundme was just ridiculous. I hope it's possible to reveal a list of everyone who will ever donate in there so that it's possible to avoid them.

[Lieldoryn]

It was an unfortunate incident. But I will give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. Perhaps they were unaware that the lady had schizophrenia. What you are supposed to do, when someone charges at you armed with a baseball bat?

Police officers must possess self-defense techniques and if they are attacked 66 year old woman, they had no problem to disarm and neutralize. In this case, there is excess of self-defense and police must answer for it. Now let train in prison.

[HabBear]

Your article doesn't actually say that.

Fair enough, I concede this point.

Anyway, a lot of people work in the city but live just outside the city. Rents in Manhatten are very high unless you have a rent controlled apartment, but a lot of people live on long island or other areas that are a short commute.

The high salaries of police officers are not because the cost of living is that high.

The high salaries come from the unions having extorted high pay from the city for decades. Police in NY used to all threaten to call in sick unless their union got all the benefits and raises they wanted, which they usually did. Google "Blue Flu" and you'll see why their pay is so high.

I'll also agree with how unions have played a significant part in the income levels of blue collar and/or government workers.

If you take the number that was quoted in the OP - $99,000 - is that too much to pay a Police Officer in NYC? A police officer, someone who's "supposed" to fight crime with an intrinsic passion, taking bullets, taking risk, taking their lives first for the safety of the community. You really think this isn't worth a good paycheck with steady benefits?

I think it IS worth it...and I think police officers should be held to a higher standard when their decision making is a target for questioning.

[gamerfan]

These people just because have a badge and a gun think they can do anything. They're just a bunch of arrogant scum.

Of course not every police officer is like this, but many are...

[joebrook]

You can't really blame the Police Officers but in cases like this a certain amount of restraint, they could have used a teaser to take the lady down. A 66 year old woman with a baseball bat doesn't seem to be much of a threat.

[PeterTheGrape]

Why did they go to the old lady's house in the first place? And yeah, shooting an octogenarian with a baseball bat is undoubtedly overkill. Heck, even punching the woman would have already caused significant damage. Aren't they even trained how to disarm people?

As for threatening the commissioner, that's the height of hooliganism. Can't they just admit they fucked up? And the gofundme was just ridiculous. I hope it's possible to reveal a list of everyone who will ever donate in there so that it's possible to avoid them.

She was 66 years old. They went there because she was having a schizophrenic fit. She had written about scizophrenia, Google "LIVING WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA by Deborah Danner" and was normally sedate.

The gofundme page is public and alerts people that the cops are mounting a defense. What is not public are other efforts they will make, including discrete threats against the judge and jurors. That will happen in this case, and none of the jurors nor judge will complain.

There was a bried period when the nypd shot a bunch of black women and some journalists scratched their head about it. The only one I remember specifically was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Eleanor_Bumpurs

[PeterTheGrape]

...

If you take the number that was quoted in the OP - $99,000 - is that too much to pay a Police Officer in NYC? A police officer, someone who's "supposed" to fight crime with an intrinsic passion, taking bullets, taking risk, taking their lives first for the safety of the community. You really think this isn't worth a good paycheck with steady benefits?

I think it IS worth it...and I think police officers should be held to a higher standard when their decision making is a target for questioning.

Most people who become police officers do it for two reasons.

1) They like the feeling of power, sometimes they word it as "I like to help", etc but the root of it is power.

2) They could not earn as much money in any other job. There are exceptions, but the vast majority of nypd officers would take at least a 50% pay cut if they went to the private sector.

---

If police officers were held to the same standards as other citizens, rather then a much lesser standard, I personally would not oppose giving them extra money, since they are more in a position to make mistakes, but the pay levels of some police departments, including the nypd, is far beyond reason and derived from extortion only.

I am not a fan of strict punishments for any nonviolent crimes, but honestly the nypd is famous for cooking cases and attacking innocent people. They need to eat their own food. There are literally thousands of nonviolent new yorkers whose lives were ruined for much less serious offenses, not to mention the statistically high number of innocent people they have done that to. You can argue this or that, but the bottom line is at least the same level of accountability for cops as they impose on others. That lady did not get much of a chance, and it isn't necessary to charge that cop full price, but if his buddies want to play some gangster punk bullshit I say burn them.

[Sithara007]

It was an unfortunate incident. But I will give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. Perhaps they were unaware that the lady had schizophrenia. What you are supposed to do, when someone charges at you armed with a baseball bat?

Police officers must possess self-defense techniques and if they are attacked 66 year old woman, they had no problem to disarm and neutralize. In this case, there is excess of self-defense and police must answer for it. Now let train in prison.

How much time they had to react? It depends on the experience and skills of the cops. Perhaps the cops in question were a bunch of inexperienced newbies? Ideally, they would have used a taser. But it is a tough call.

[PeterTheGrape]

It was an unfortunate incident. But I will give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. Perhaps they were unaware that the lady had schizophrenia. What you are supposed to do, when someone charges at you armed with a baseball bat?

Police officers must possess self-defense techniques and if they are attacked 66 year old woman, they had no problem to disarm and neutralize. In this case, there is excess of self-defense and police must answer for it. Now let train in prison.

How much time they had to react? It depends on the experience and skills of the cops. Perhaps the cops in question were a bunch of inexperienced newbies? Ideally, they would have used a taser. But it is a tough call.

React to what? A 66 year old woman, in her own apartment, having commited no crime. A bunch of guys bang into her apartment and address her aggressively. She has been robbed multiple times, probably including by police.

Would it be too much to tell the police to step back, just a few paces.

They were attacking her, she was not attacking them.

[GreenBits]

It was an unfortunate incident. But I will give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. Perhaps they were unaware that the lady had schizophrenia. What you are supposed to do, when someone charges at you armed with a baseball bat?

Maybe not like, shoot them? I'm pretty sure a trained police officer should be able to handle a little old lady with a baseball bat. And even if she were Babe Ruth with that thing, I'm also pretty sure they could have restrained her, tased her, or even shot her non lethally. Basically, unless we are dealing with a trained, professional fighter in decent shape, firearm not= melee weapon. And this was a blunt, not a sharp.

If your mom got off her meds (hypothetical) or was startled awake by the sound of unknown men entering, and grabbed a bat to defend herself, well, I hope no one splatters her brain all over your living room carpet. You'll need new carpet, for one. New moms sold separately.

Edit: you mentioned a Taser in a later post. Still, stuff like this is a no brainer. Cops shouldn't be going into situations that passionately, and with that little situational awareness. If they were entering the residence, they should have been aware of who could possibly be there;; her condition would have been known and accounted for. The police behave like special forces nowadays is the problem. And the fact that they don't get prosecuted for shooting first.

[pisston]

It was an unfortunate incident. But I will give the benefit of the doubt to the cops. Perhaps they were unaware that the lady had schizophrenia. What you are supposed to do, when someone charges at you armed with a baseball bat?

Police officers must possess self-defense techniques and if they are attacked 66 year old woman, they had no problem to disarm and neutralize. In this case, there is excess of self-defense and police must answer for it. Now let train in prison.

How much time they had to react? It depends on the experience and skills of the cops. Perhaps the cops in question were a bunch of inexperienced newbies? Ideally, they would have used a taser. But it is a tough call.

React to what? A 66 year old woman, in her own apartment, having commited no crime. A bunch of guys bang into her apartment and address her aggressively. She has been robbed multiple times, probably including by police.

Would it be too much to tell the police to step back, just a few paces.

They were attacking her, she was not attacking them.

The fact is that the situation is constantly different. Perhaps the new police did not understand the whole danger and thought that it was too big, because the police always meet armed bandits with whom they need to fight. And they need to initially react correctly. Every policeman is afraid of being late with the reaction. Therefore, he does not all act automatically. All accidents happen Just by chance.

[veleten]

I don't see how the amount of money NYPD cops recieve correlates with such an unfortunate incident
things happen,the police recieve strict instructions on how to behave in certain situations
that cop estimated amount of threat and acted accordingly,whether he used excessive force and is guilty or not
it is up to the judge and jury to decide or whatever,maybe internal investigation and no trial at all
IMHO the police officers MUST recieve good money so they can't be bribed or take their job lightly

[PeterTheGrape]

... because the police always meet armed bandits with whom they need to fight. And they need to initially react correctly. Every policeman is afraid of being late with the reaction. Therefore, he does not all act automatically. All accidents happen Just by chance.

1) It is a myth that police work in the United States is dangerous. There are housing projects where it is 100 times more dangerous to be a resident than to be a police officer in the worst city. Being poor and/or homeless is dangerous, being a cop is not. Truck drivers have higher mortality than cops in the U.S.

2) In many U.S. cities police avoid areas with crime and react very slowly when sent to a crime, so they don't get hurt. Chicago is famous for being one of the most violent U.S. cities at the moment. Virtually every job category in Chicago is dangerous. If you are a barber you run the risk of being shot. If you are a cabbie you run the risk of being shot. If you are a bank teller you run the risk of being shot. There is only one job category in Chicago that has had zero fatalities in the last 5 years. Police officer. The last fatality on the Chicago Police department was December 2011. It is the safest job in that city and police officers run away whenever there is any danger at all.