Dear Bitcointalk Community, please change your perspective about Bitcoin!

[Boseda]

I'm writing this post because I see it everywhere on this forum. People who just talk about Bitcoin pump(s), $ price, € price and so on... even most legendary members do it!


I think most Bitcoin users miss what Bitcoin really is and what Satoshi wanted it to be.
If you read the white paper, there's no mention about Bitcoin as a digital asset. Satoshi just wanted to create a payment system, a strong one and much better than the traditional ones.

But right now, Bitcoin is mainly considered as a digital asset, digital gold, just an investment tool to make (quick) profit. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I think Bitcoin users are raping Satoshi's original view, thinking only about BTC's value on exchanges.


What most don't understand is that Satoshi gave us a huge power. The power to destroy and make disappear forever the whole old banking system, other online payment systems like paypal and maybe governments too. Forever.

He gave us the power to decentralize everything using the blockchain technology. In short, Satoshi gave us the power the change the world for the better.


So why are you focusing only on Bitcoin's price on exchanges?


Imagine this.

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.


But now, Bitcoin has becomed just a digital asset. Maybe a toy for rich people to get even richer.
What's so revolutionary about it? The world is already full of assets and investment tool...


In short, Bitcoin lost most of its revolutionary appeal.

I strongly suggest you to change your consideration about Bitcoin. Now it's time to choose, because what we - as a community - decide now will influence all the future history of Bitcoin.


So, what do you prefer? A brick of gold or a better world?

[Searing]

I'm writing this post because I see it everywhere on this forum. People who just talk about Bitcoin pump(s), $ price, € price and so on... even most legendary members do it!


I think most Bitcoin users miss what Bitcoin really is and what Satoshi wanted it to be.
If you read the white paper, there's no mention about Bitcoin as a digital asset. Satoshi just wanted to create a payment system, a strong one and much better than the traditional ones.

But right now, Bitcoin is mainly considered as a digital asset, digital gold, just an investment tool to make (quick) profit. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I think Bitcoin users are raping Satoshi's original view, thinking only about BTC's value on exchanges.


What most don't understand is that Satoshi gave us a huge power. The power to destroy and make disappear forever the whole old banking system, other online payment systems like paypal and maybe governments too. Forever.

He gave us the power to decentralize everything using the blockchain technology. In short, Satoshi gave us the power the change the world for the better.


So why are you focusing only on Bitcoin's price on exchanges?


Imagine this.

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.


But now, Bitcoin has becomed just a digital asset. Maybe a toy for rich people to get even richer.
What's so revolutionary about it? The world is already full of assets and investment tool...


In short, Bitcoin lost most of its revolutionary appeal.

I strongly suggest you to change your consideration about Bitcoin. Now it's time to choose, because what we - as a community - decide now will influence all the future history of Bitcoin.


So, what do you prefer? A brick of gold or a better world?

we are still at the stage we want the world to LIKE US as the new kid in town...the price of BTC gives us hope that maybe what you state above can happen

but we are a little bit skittish yet...I assume if bitcoin hits 10k and has more use ..things will go as you state...as of now we are in the WTH stage of awe

and BTC price going up ...is a reflection of adoption and holding.....thus security at least for those of us holding bitcoin  

[BitcoinBabbler]

I agree with your point. A nice perspective you have there.

Bitcoin, although originally created to change the banking system, has inflated itself in the last few years.

I mean, who and why wouldn't take the change to get profits out of the uprise of Btc?
Sure, the long term goal remains to change the banking system and aim for a better world, but while we are at it, is it wrong to make profits out of it?

[krishnapramod]

It would take quite some time for bitcoins to change the banking system. The problem  is that a good number of bitcoin users have restricted themselves to thinking that BTC serves only two purposes, gambling and trading. Somewhere because of this the original peer-to-peer payment objective is getting overruled. I do not think most of the traders would even think twice about scalability issues and current fees, as far as bitcoin price is increasing, they are happy with it. Micro transactions are no longer possible, merchants who had opted for bitcoin as a payment option have taken a hit.

But still there a lot of good things happening, a few countries are planning to legalise bitcoins, major stores accepting bitcoin, major industries opting for bitcoin. The next step is making bitcoins available for purchasing almost everything that can be bought with fiat. Fees issue would be resolved soon, at least by 2018. Expecting bitcoin growth would make banks or fiat disappear would be bit too much to ask.

[slaman29]

Satoshi may not have dreamt of creating more elites out of nothing, but I am sure the genius could imagine that it would happen and no one could do much about it. Just like gold/dollar and other assets, before mainstream adoption, the elites already had most of the wealth and the rest of the world used 10% of the rest.

It will be the same for Bitcoin, unfortunately.

[avikz]

You have your own perspective and I respect that. However, what Mr. Satoshi wanted for the bitcoin, we have long diverted from that path. Like you have said in the thread,

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.

Apart from sending money everywhere, do you think  we have achieved the other two aspects like instant and low fees money transfer??

I think NO. Bitcoin transactions are not instant and definitely not with low fees. Rather, bitcoin transaction fees are way higher than any other online payment processors.

So I think bitcoin going towards a future, which majority of the users have chosen for it. I am absolutely happy with that because I am an investor and trader of bitcoin. The high price is giving me hope and hence I am associated with bitcoin. If the price drops to $1, I am sure 99% of the bitcoin users will loose interest on it.

[talkbitcoin]

a very good post and i fully agree with it.

although i want to add that this has always been inevitable. when something gains value it obviously attracts a lot of people with different goals.
- many see the price rise $$$ only
- many see that at first and then start learning more and see there is more to bitcoin than just its price (i am in this category)
- and some are obviously mostly into it for the technology.

i have always tried to tell others on the forum or in real life when they ask me about bitcoin that bitcoin is a currency first then an investment. and try my best to show them the other side of bitcoin and the $$$ it gives them.

Apart from sending money everywhere, do you think  we have achieved the other two aspects like instant and low fees money transfer??

the fact that after 8 years we are currently at a crossroad doesn't change the fact that bitcoin is instant and with low fees.

p.s. instant means when you send money to someone else it reaches them in about 5 seconds. the confirmation is a different story which is about 10 minutes on average.

[NeuroticFish]

Although you seem well intended, your views are unrealistic.

A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.

Do you know anybody that would accept to stay at least 20 minutes (and up to 3 days) in line to wait for his payment to get accepted and go home from the grocery store?

A world where you can get all the privacy you want.

Bitcoin is not as anonymous as many would think nor would like.

A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.

Governments will resist badly against these. They're goals very hard to achieve.
And you know that if you will not pay takes you'll need to pay for school, road access, and so on, even get your personal bodyguards since there will be no police (no funds).


Yes, Bitcoin is a very good way to transfer money between countries, evade taxation (although this will not last much longer), experiment a revolutionary way to see money / asset / value and public data storage. but most of the benefits you written about don't apply. Sorry.

And you forget the human greed. Anything that holds value attracts dreamers and speculators.

[Chikito]

This is amazing when you start to create a forum with your opinion, because when we assume that bitcoin as a medium of exchange, then bitcoin has value, and value is created because of usability. And I think that satoshi created bitcoin is deliberate to resemble fiat money and create bitcoin by removing some fiat weakness, not only that, where many values make bitcoin more expensive, such as gambling, trading, and some financial settlements with bitcoin and cryptocurrency .

[Gaaara]

That is so true, the one reason why there is a high payment for every transaction is because of bitcoin pumping, if the value of bitcoin is low then there will be a lower payment for transaction. Maybe Satoshi wouldn't have wanted this to happen but as a matter of fact it is one of the reason why bitcoin demands is growing more than any cryptocurrencies in the whole internet.

[vaccin]

It's still too early to discuss and believe that btc will replace the us dollar bill.
As it stands, after all these years, it's impossible to buy a coffee with btc, due to confirmation times.
Not to mention than the average Joe never heard of btc.
Also privacy cannot be accomplished with btc. This is an early misconception and uneducated people believes that.
There are a lot to be done to make this coin perfect, we might enjoy the ride till it goes mainstream.

[Snorek]

Satoshi was a visionary and genius but he wasn't a prophet, he couldn't possible know what bitcoin will became in the future.
Sometimes our creations evolve beyond our control and despite our initial plan. Reality will correct every plan.
Op, what do you ask of us? What can we do to preserve original Satoshi's vision? Give out our BTC to poor people?

[franky1]

Satoshi was a visionary and genius but he wasn't a prophet, he couldn't possible know what bitcoin will became in the future.
Sometimes our creations evolve beyond our control and despite our initial plan. Reality will correct every plan.
Op, what do you ask of us? What can we do to preserve original Satoshi's vision? Give out our BTC to poor people?

lol
probably easier to slap devs with a wet fish if they mess with the fee controls.... oh wait they have
probably easier to slap devs with a wet fish if they use bad code and empty promises that still only offer false hope of 7tx/s to avoid real onchain scaling... oh wait they have.

so maybe instead of just letting devs screw with bitcoin, and pretend bitcoin can survive without utility. we should be slapping devs more often

[bitbunnny]

Money makes the world go round, don't forget that. It's true that maybe at the begininig Bitcoin has engaged and gathered a lot of enthusiasts and visionaires but with time a lot of different people was attracted to Bitcoin with main purpose to get their share of profit and opportunity to make some money.
And I don't think this should necessary be wrong thought some would like to see more idealists.

[Red-Apple]

i say it is not such a bad thing if they come in for the money and stay for the technology.
but we as the community may have a lot of work to do.
for starters people should stop talking about "to the moon" aka "price to 1 jillion dollar" to newcommers when they ask what is bitcoin.
second stop just telling them bitcoin is cheap method of transferring money. at least for a while until this stupid block size debate reaches some conclusion! (hope that happens soon!)

[mrfreezeh]

I'm writing this post because I see it everywhere on this forum. People who just talk about Bitcoin pump(s), $ price, € price and so on... even most legendary members do it!


I think most Bitcoin users miss what Bitcoin really is and what Satoshi wanted it to be.
If you read the white paper, there's no mention about Bitcoin as a digital asset. Satoshi just wanted to create a payment system, a strong one and much better than the traditional ones.

But right now, Bitcoin is mainly considered as a digital asset, digital gold, just an investment tool to make (quick) profit. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I think Bitcoin users are raping Satoshi's original view, thinking only about BTC's value on exchanges.


What most don't understand is that Satoshi gave us a huge power. The power to destroy and make disappear forever the whole old banking system, other online payment systems like paypal and maybe governments too. Forever.

He gave us the power to decentralize everything using the blockchain technology. In short, Satoshi gave us the power the change the world for the better.


So why are you focusing only on Bitcoin's price on exchanges?


Imagine this.

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.


But now, Bitcoin has becomed just a digital asset. Maybe a toy for rich people to get even richer.
What's so revolutionary about it? The world is already full of assets and investment tool...


In short, Bitcoin lost most of its revolutionary appeal.

I strongly suggest you to change your consideration about Bitcoin. Now it's time to choose, because what we - as a community - decide now will influence all the future history of Bitcoin.


So, what do you prefer? A brick of gold or a better world?

First, thank you very much has spend your time for write it, this is a good thread and very detail!
Yeah, I think Bitcoin will change payment system on the world's in future. It will replace old system: Banks, Paypal, Visa... and become to a currency freedom, not managent by any country, anyone!

[Kakmakr]

The Anarchist label brought a lot of criticism from the general public. They do not care what the goals of Satoshi was for this technology. They will care once their financial freedom and privacy are influenced, but for now they are not experiencing it, so it is a non-issue for them.

The people from Greece have experienced first-hand what government corruption can bring and how involved banks are with these governments. You will always see more interest in alternatives technologies, when the original technology/entity misuse their power.

[Boseda]

I agree with your point. A nice perspective you have there.

Bitcoin, although originally created to change the banking system, has inflated itself in the last few years.

I mean, who and why wouldn't take the change to get profits out of the uprise of Btc?
Sure, the long term goal remains to change the banking system and aim for a better world, but while we are at it, is it wrong to make profits out of it?

Yes, we all like to make profits. But there's something more important than just make money.

We could and should do a revolution. We have the power to it.
It will be, maybe, the greatest revolution of all times: decentralized money, a monetary systems not owned and controlled by governments or banks. This is my dream, but it's sad bitcointalk community seem to stay here just waiting for an increase in Bitcoin price...

[27QVUTZj8rgZP1]

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.

You've just described Dash, which aims to be (real) digital cash.


Anyway, what the OP said makes sense. Bitcoin is going to the wrong direction, yet they do nothing.

What you feel when reading this page: https://bitcoin.org/en/innovation ? It feels like false advertising.

[qiman]

I agree, Bitcoin is not just a toll to generate wealth for the Whales. It has technology that may be able to solve many of the World's problems. I am more interested in the blockchain applications myself and my Wife is more the trader/asset manager. She just showed me a new a company that won an innovations award in the U.S as it wants to revolutionize healthcare in the world at large. It's projects like this that give me hope that the future might be bright because of blockchain technology and Bitcoin is the offshoot of that.

[slaman29]

Anyway, what the OP said makes sense. Bitcoin is going to the wrong direction, yet they do nothing.

What you feel when reading this page: https://bitcoin.org/en/innovation ? It feels like false advertising.

Actually, many of the pages as bitcoin.org makes me feel a lot of things. Surprise, amusement, sadness. But also... https://bitcoin.org/en/you-need-to-know is quite important. For me, the bottom of that page is a "warning". Bitcoin is still experimental.

By the way, it's unfair to say they are doing nothing. And unfair to say they are advertising.

[poplolnman]

Money makes the world go round, don't forget that. It's true that maybe at the begininig Bitcoin has engaged and gathered a lot of enthusiasts and visionaires but with time a lot of different people was attracted to Bitcoin with main purpose to get their share of profit and opportunity to make some money.
And I don't think this should necessary be wrong thought some would like to see more idealists.

it's good to see a lot of people get interested in bitcoin , but when the majority bitcoin user have a purpose to make it as a digital asset then the main purpose of bitcoin invention as a payment processor could get disappeared slowly. always needed to remind people about this , greedy sometimes make people forgot about the beautiful bitcoin purpose for the better financial world.

[hawthelegend]

Dude, i salute you. You have a great perspective. But you see my friend, all of these thingsthat happened in the past and still happening to bitcoin today is not something you can call a bad thing. Yes, it might not yet be what satoshi wanted, but these people today who sees bitcoin as what they see it is a very important milestone for it to reach satoshi's dream. Because you see, if the less fortunate people didnt see bitcoin the way they did or do today, they wont be attracted to it, and it wouldn't have gotten where it currently is today.

Now, you see my friend, my point here is that everything may not be as what it seems or what you see today may not be the same tomorrow for it can change and become entirely different depending on the things that affects it. And that is why we have trial and errors, this is why we choose to experience rather than stay on the safe lane, so that we can succeed and if fail, we can learn and with every knowledge we gain, we improve. There are no shortcuts for the greatest things in this world. Everything needs to be done step by step to be molded precisely to become as to what it needs to be.

So with that being said, i know that time will come when satoshi's visions and dreams for bitcoins will surely come true. But today is not the time yet. All we can do is wait and do our part as the early users of bitcoins and spread the knowledge of bitcoins to everyone. It is not a job but a responsibility that we all meed to do. This is not just for you, me, or anyone in this forum, but for every man walking this planet that deserves to live the visions and dreams of shatoshi. This is for a better world.

[Nagadota]

So why are you focusing only on Bitcoin's price on exchanges?

1.  Bitcoin's price on exchanges indicates its level of adoption and how much people have supported it.
2.  The price represents what you can buy with it, it's just a way of measuring Bitcoin's value.  With its current volatility you can't just pretend the value has stayed the same, and that's essential when buying something.
3.  Storing value in Bitcoin will be essential in the future because it helps to keep the price stable.

But now, Bitcoin has becomed just a digital asset.

This is just capitalism.  As long as people continue to think there's a "greater fool" to buy it off them for more, there will be more users and eventually this will make it revolutionary again.

[hatshepsut93]

Bitcoin is a digital gold, because just like real gold it's slow and expensive to move. At it will stay like that until the scaling problem is solved, so pick your side in the ongoing debate and wait for the outcome.
 And where is Satoshi in these hard times? He disappeared long ago without any explanation, so how can you blame people for using Bitcoin for making money via trading it, if there's not much else to do with it?

[poptok1]

Ok first I want to ask you. Are you being paid for that signature you're wearing?

Like it has anything to do with what the guy said, whenever he is getting a tip for his words or not it doesn't change the facts or that he is right or wrong.
I was always considering BTC as a "regular" money, not some mysterious asset/virtual gold etc.
Store of value happens anyway, just because bitcoins Are revolutionary and regardless of it.
Nothing wrong with being paid to speak and I think he is right, almost no one from my surrounding is looking at BTC as on money to be used on daily basis, profit possibility clouded the idea. Can this be changed? I really don't think so, people always going to be people with a little, green, greed goblin inside them.
 

[itsallpc]

I agree with your point. A nice perspective you have there.

Bitcoin, although originally created to change the banking system, has inflated itself in the last few years.

I mean, who and why wouldn't take the change to get profits out of the uprise of Btc?
Sure, the long term goal remains to change the banking system and aim for a better world, but while we are at it, is it wrong to make profits out of it?

Yes,OP might have said true.But when bitcoin has capacity to provide so much salient features,then why not make use of it?That's the thing world is doing today.

[dinofelis]

I fully agree with your disappointment, mine is the same.  However, I think that the problem - in as much as it is a problem, which it seems to be to you, and it is also to me - that bitcoin and the other crypto currencies are mainly speculative assets ("bricks of gold") and are not so much a payment system after all, is not due to "the community betraying Satoshi", but rather, that it is a fundamental design error in bitcoin.  At least, if Satoshi didn't want it to become a speculative asset, but a payment system.

What turns bitcoin by design into a speculative asset, and what makes it impossible to become a good payment system, is the emission curve of bitcoin: the fact that bitcoin was created a lot when it wasn't worth much, and has a decreasing supply when there's an increasing demand and adoption, even making this supply drop to zero.    As such, you get early adopters that enjoyed HUGE amounts of seigniorage, and could become rich with very little risk, investment, and effort, while having something whose increasing rarity is boosting the price.  It makes for great stories of getting rich quickly, people not wanting to miss the train, fear of missing out, .... everything which makes for the better greater-fool game.

Bitcoin has been advertised from the start as "you know, there will only be 21 million coins, if this is going to become the worlds' money, can you imagine how much one coin will be worth, so buy some now for a low sum and be wealthy in a few years !"

The "limited amount of coins" and the wealth of a few early adopters has made bitcoin into a "get rich quickly" machine, not into a "good stable payment system".   Sound money theory with huge initial seigniorage (an oxymoron in itself) is the flawed economic model of bitcoin, instead of Nash's ideal money theory.  It is a flawed theory for a payment system, but it is the perfect design for a huge greater-fool game, also known as a pyramid scheme, which is what bitcoin became - because it was designed that way.

Most other crypto has the same design flaw, which turns this whole thing into a joke as a payment system, but which turns it in one of the better financial gambling feasts in town.  And pumping, it will !  Visibly, financial institutions have too much money on their hands, and have been restricted by law to gamble.  They are longing to be able to gamble on crypto, and this will be the origin of the next big financial crisis.

I'm writing this post because I see it everywhere on this forum. People who just talk about Bitcoin pump(s), $ price, € price and so on... even most legendary members do it!


I think most Bitcoin users miss what Bitcoin really is and what Satoshi wanted it to be.
If you read the white paper, there's no mention about Bitcoin as a digital asset. Satoshi just wanted to create a payment system, a strong one and much better than the traditional ones.

But right now, Bitcoin is mainly considered as a digital asset, digital gold, just an investment tool to make (quick) profit. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I think Bitcoin users are raping Satoshi's original view, thinking only about BTC's value on exchanges.


What most don't understand is that Satoshi gave us a huge power. The power to destroy and make disappear forever the whole old banking system, other online payment systems like paypal and maybe governments too. Forever.

He gave us the power to decentralize everything using the blockchain technology. In short, Satoshi gave us the power the change the world for the better.


So why are you focusing only on Bitcoin's price on exchanges?


Imagine this.

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.


But now, Bitcoin has becomed just a digital asset. Maybe a toy for rich people to get even richer.
What's so revolutionary about it? The world is already full of assets and investment tool...


In short, Bitcoin lost most of its revolutionary appeal.

I strongly suggest you to change your consideration about Bitcoin. Now it's time to choose, because what we - as a community - decide now will influence all the future history of Bitcoin.


So, what do you prefer? A brick of gold or a better world?

[Junko]

I'm writing this post because I see it everywhere on this forum. People who just talk about Bitcoin pump(s), $ price, € price and so on... even most legendary members do it!


I think most Bitcoin users miss what Bitcoin really is and what Satoshi wanted it to be.
If you read the white paper, there's no mention about Bitcoin as a digital asset. Satoshi just wanted to create a payment system, a strong one and much better than the traditional ones.

But right now, Bitcoin is mainly considered as a digital asset, digital gold, just an investment tool to make (quick) profit. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I think Bitcoin users are raping Satoshi's original view, thinking only about BTC's value on exchanges.


What most don't understand is that Satoshi gave us a huge power. The power to destroy and make disappear forever the whole old banking system, other online payment systems like paypal and maybe governments too. Forever.

He gave us the power to decentralize everything using the blockchain technology. In short, Satoshi gave us the power the change the world for the better.


So why are you focusing only on Bitcoin's price on exchanges?


Imagine this.

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.


But now, Bitcoin has becomed just a digital asset. Maybe a toy for rich people to get even richer.
What's so revolutionary about it? The world is already full of assets and investment tool...


In short, Bitcoin lost most of its revolutionary appeal.

I strongly suggest you to change your consideration about Bitcoin. Now it's time to choose, because what we - as a community - decide now will influence all the future history of Bitcoin.


So, what do you prefer? A brick of gold or a better world?

As a degenerate bitcoin gambler, I personally feel slighted that you did not include us/those who utilize bitcoin to gamble in your Bitcoin Social Justice Warrior rant. Don't we bitcoin gamblers also, in your words, "rape" Satoshi's view by only focusing on gambling with bitcoins? I am indignant and feel you are discriminating against us and I demand we be treated equally based on the fact that we bitcoin gamblers too can be just as selfish and greedy as those who focus on the price of bitcoins on the exchanges.

As far as a better world, wealth and capital contributes greatly to making the world a better place. I'm not saying money is the only means by which our world can be improved, but it does play a mojor role in funding developments and innovations that do make the world a better place. But by all means, stay up there on your high horse and presume to tell others what and how we should think.

[orpel]

As I see it Bitcoin represents the idea and the use of the Blockchain technology.
This technology is a huge thing and with or without the Bitcoin it will be a huge part of the future of tech.
Not only transactions but many other uses for this technology.
The Bitcoin is just a symbol of this technology.

[jameshowlett]

As I see it Bitcoin represents the idea and the use of the Blockchain technology.
This technology is a huge thing and with or without the Bitcoin it will be a huge part of the future of tech.
Not only transactions but many other uses for this technology.
The Bitcoin is just a symbol of this technology.

The blockchain technology is new to the people and it is very great if the world can use it for good purposes. However, it is very hard for bitcoin or some other altcoins can be used worldwide and replace other types of currency. The new technology will be used along with paper money and both bitcoin and FIAT will still exist in the futre

[Barbut]

You can't fight with a world, all comes down to making profit in the end, that is why we get up in the morning and go to work, that's why we are doing so many things, bitcoin is not much different.
Yes Satoshi created something good, something   revolutionary, but where are the first people behind him? Do you think he is the first guy with great ideas? You should mention who is making this fees high? Why transactions are slow? Who is making fortune on this fluctuations, you need to answer on this question, who is the driver in this train!?

[olubams]

Your argument is right and it shows that you took time to read the white paper but I don't believe the objective of Satoshi has been defeated because bitcoin will not just overtake banks all of a sudden but a process and that process is what is being going through now and that is why it seems defeated and by the time the population has grown to make that change, I am sure less value would be generated using it as a digital asset or otherwise.

[radjie]

Yes it is true that wanted satoshi with this digital money in order to facilitate to transact, But there is no harm too if bitcoin serve as an investment asset because this is a technological development made by someone so it can facilitate how to invest through the internet.
I think the role of satoshi here is only people who create the existence of bitcoin or digital money, But bitcoin can be like until now it is not done by satoshi but by the developers of technology so much to invite the investors who enter into it.

[RodeoX]

I agree with your basic premise, but there is also the idea that we are not going to tell each other what to do with our money. That is the hard part about freedom. Freedom is not when you get to do what you want. It is when you are willing to allow others to do what you don't want them to do.

[25hashcoin]

Bitcoin would easily be over $10k if it weren't for toxic Blockstream and their Segwit poison.

[Gameroid]

Money makes the world go round, don't forget that. It's true that maybe at the begininig Bitcoin has engaged and gathered a lot of enthusiasts and visionaires but with time a lot of different people was attracted to Bitcoin with main purpose to get their share of profit and opportunity to make some money.
And I don't think this should necessary be wrong thought some would like to see more idealists.

it's good to see a lot of people get interested in bitcoin , but when the majority bitcoin user have a purpose to make it as a digital asset then the main purpose of bitcoin invention as a payment processor could get disappeared slowly. always needed to remind people about this , greedy sometimes make people forgot about the beautiful bitcoin purpose for the better financial world.

yes that is right.  there is no doubt that the popularity of bitcoin increasing from time to time but in fact they do not have all the facilities that we are expecting from  bitcoin. and which are available to us in fiat,  and that is the reason that most of the people are using bitcoin for trading and investment purposes, and not using it as currency, but in future we can expect that in future people will be using bitcoin as currency for purchasing everything they want.

[Boseda]

I agree with your basic premise, but there is also the idea that we are not going to tell each other what to do with our money. That is the hard part about freedom. Freedom is not when you get to do what you want. It is when you are willing to allow others to do what you don't want them to do.

Yes, your opinion about freedom is true.

But I think you didn't understand my OP very well.
I didn't say people cannot use Bitcoin for whatever they want... it's their money and in my opinion they are free to use it how they prefer, even in ways I don't like (for example buying drugs, etc.)

Yet the fact is that most people consider Bitcoin not a payment system, but rather a digital asset.
This is the point. There's a sort of misconception about Bitcoin, in my opinion...

[franky1]

I agree with your basic premise, but there is also the idea that we are not going to tell each other what to do with our money. That is the hard part about freedom. Freedom is not when you get to do what you want. It is when you are willing to allow others to do what you don't want them to do.

rodeox its not about telling people what they can do or not do with their money... its about waking people up to the fact that while some people are only looking at the price.. devs are screwing with the code and reducing what people can do with their money.

im sure you will see this when you visit africa and realise that trying to convince africans to use bitcoin is alot harder than trying to convince the icelandics

[haroldtee]

OP! Satoshi may have had that idea in the past but unfortunately, it blew more than he expected. If he just wanted a peer to peer thingy, he wouldn't have done it in such a way that bitcoin will keep increasing in value as a result of law of supply and demand or the transaction fee will increase hugely to this level. Unless you don't just want anyone to use bitcoin again. What is done is done! You can't expect people not to think of bitcoin as an asset when that is exactly what bitcoin has helped them to achieve. You bought bitcoin 2010 and you have a coin worth $2k plus today, what will you call that?
Like I said, Satoshi may have had a different idea, but he is nowhere to tell us what's up now and we are stucked with the system as it is. Maybe he is even somewhere on the carribean now enjoying himself with what he has. Whichever way, thanks to him for the great innovation.

[haroldtee]

I agree with your basic premise, but there is also the idea that we are not going to tell each other what to do with our money. That is the hard part about freedom. Freedom is not when you get to do what you want. It is when you are willing to allow others to do what you don't want them to do.

rodeox its not about telling people what they can do or not do with their money... its about waking people up to the fact that while some people are only looking at the price.. devs are screwing with the code and reducing what people can do with their money.

im sure you will see this when you visit africa and realise that trying to convince africans to use bitcoin is alot harder than trying to convince the icelandics

And that is not true. Come to Africa and we will convince you to use bitcoin. I am an African, precisely Nigeria and I know the rate at which bitcoin is going viral down here. Everyday, people ask questions about bitcoin and I have never seen a week that I haven't discussed bitcoin anywhere I find myself. Wanna check out the payment systems exchanging bitcoin to my currency everyday? You have no idea. I don't know why you must have mentioned that but that notion is totally wrong.

[aarturka]

You don't have a clue... Bitcoin's growing price indicates that it's becoming popular as digital gold. So quit you bitching about buying coffee, we've had enough Ver's bs   

[franky1]

And that is not true. Come to Africa and we will convince you to use bitcoin. I am an African, precisely Nigeria and I know the rate at which bitcoin is going viral down here. Everyday, people ask questions about bitcoin and I have never seen a week that I haven't discussed bitcoin anywhere I find myself. Wanna check out the payment systems exchanging bitcoin to my currency everyday? You have no idea. I don't know why you must have mentioned that but that notion is totally wrong.

are you inner city talking to the rich..
or actually talking to normal people.

people 'discussing/asking about bitcoin' is different than people USING bitcoin

how many have actually used bitcoin (without hoarding in exchanges) to notice the tx fee to move funds is more than some people weeks wage.

i have spoken to many people in many countries.. they love the premiss of bitcoin, its original ethos and ideology, but when it comes to actually using it. they start to notice the flaws. the only people that then continue to want bitcoin are those too afraid to cash out or too greedy to cash out due to hopes of 'becoming rich' in the future.

bitcoin has lost all its ideology as a currency and 3rd world/developing countries are usually first to point out this fact once they get passed the sales pitch and start using it. finding its not a 'daily life' currency like Mpesa. but instead a retirement plan

it seems even you yourself recognise the issues

Bitcoin is gradually becoming non-affordable for lower class for transaction purposes unless they just want to buy very little and keep as an investment. Moreover, the very little one can buy from most exchange sites, is still a bit on the high side. Also, transaction fees are increasing by the day, which is quite appalling. Best way to just get bitcoin now for lower masses is just to partake in stuffs that makes them earn bitcoin if they are well informed enough. So back to his question! In a way it is available to all levels of society and in a way it isn't.

[Dorky]

The biggest problem with Bitcoin now is the scaling drama.

I am sure they can easily find a very good solution but no, they instead make things overcomplicated.

[malami]

I'm writing this post because I see it everywhere on this forum. People who just talk about Bitcoin pump(s), $ price, € price and so on... even most legendary members do it!


I think most Bitcoin users miss what Bitcoin really is and what Satoshi wanted it to be.
If you read the white paper, there's no mention about Bitcoin as a digital asset. Satoshi just wanted to create a payment system, a strong one and much better than the traditional ones.

But right now, Bitcoin is mainly considered as a digital asset, digital gold, just an investment tool to make (quick) profit. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I think Bitcoin users are raping Satoshi's original view, thinking only about BTC's value on exchanges.

Bitcoin was created to allow us to do anything we want, what Satoshis original view was is completely irrelevant to me.

However I do agree with several of your points, mainly what bugs me is that the fees are ridiculous and limit what I can do with bitcoin.

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.

I completely agree with this and this is what attracts me to the concept of bitcoin

A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.

Again it would be ideal, but the only way it can be done now is via exchanging services, nothing is done purely in terms of bitcoin

A world where you can get all the privacy you want.

I see bitcoin as more than this, it gives individuals the privacy we want while it could also allow us to track what government officials do with their money if we tracked them on the blockchain

A world without banks.

I don't want a world without banks as they give me loans which I couldn't get elsewhere, their services are needed for several other reasons too bitcoin or not

A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.

Bitcoin is currently more inflationary than the US dollar, inflation itself is not a bad thing

A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.

Taxes are a rent on our society that allows it to function, you wouldn't tell your landlord that he cannot ask you to pay your rent would you?

[JatiAnom]

well, I don't mind Bitcoin become "a digital asset" rather than "A real digital cash". I just a simple user that only care to get profit (in fiat) from the trades.

the reason why Bitcoin has failed to be "a real digital cash" is because its fail to  "crypto anarchy"

in a crypto-anarchy the government is not temporarily destroyed but permanently forbidden and permanently unnecessary. It's a community where the threat of violence is impotent because violence is impossible, and violence is impossible because its participants cannot be linked to their true names or physical locations.

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/b-money/

[dinofelis]

OP! Satoshi may have had that idea in the past but unfortunately, it blew more than he expected. If he just wanted a peer to peer thingy, he wouldn't have done it in such a way that bitcoin will keep increasing in value as a result of law of supply and demand or the transaction fee will increase hugely to this level. Unless you don't just want anyone to use bitcoin again. What is done is done! You can't expect people not to think of bitcoin as an asset when that is exactly what bitcoin has helped them to achieve. You bought bitcoin 2010 and you have a coin worth $2k plus today, what will you call that?

Very, very pertinent.  And actually, he had the perfect way to achieve a price stabilisation, but he explicitly didn't use it.  The right way to have a value-capped bitcoin would have been to have a programmed *difficulty* curve, instead of a programmed *number of coins* curve.  The difficulty would cap the value of the individual coin, and the number of coins would be determined by the law of offer and demand ; instead of the other way around.

In fact, this is the difference between "sound money" (Austrian school type money) and "ideal money" (Nash money) ; except that the Austrians don't want ANYONE to create money (seigniorage), which is why they could only use "assets from the distant past" (gold).  A good payment system comes close to ideal money ; which bitcoin isn't at all.  But bitcoin isn't sound money either because it has been recently created.  It might become it in 500 years or so, when the seigniorage of creating bitcoin has been forgotten.

[digaran]

The original post which I used the quotes.

Satoshi was a visionary and genius but he wasn't a prophet, he couldn't possible know what bitcoin will became in the future.
Sometimes our creations evolve beyond our control and despite our initial plan. Reality will correct every plan.
Op, what do you ask of us? What can we do to preserve original Satoshi's vision? Give out our BTC to poor people?

lol
probably easier to slap devs with a wet fish if they mess with the fee controls.... oh wait they have
probably easier to slap devs with a wet fish if they use bad(boy) code and empty promises that still only offer false hope of 7tx/s to avoid real onchain scaling... oh wait*(I'm cumming) they have.

so maybe instead of just letting devs screw with bitcoin, and pretend bitcoin can survive without utility. we should be slapping devs *asses more often

Oh damn, I think you watch too much punish porn, maybe while in the sky as it seems you are traveling very much often, be rich and have no concern right?
Could you clarify, how could devs force miners and nodes to do anything, I mean how exactly?
Why BU changed their proposal name to EC?
Who is manipulating the minds of the community now? did you think changing BU to EC will legitimize the proposal and effects people's mindset since BU was infamous among people?

[franky1]

Oh damn, I think you watch too much punish porn, maybe while in the sky as it seems you are traveling very much often, be rich and have no concern right?
Could you clarify, how could devs force miners and nodes to do anything, I mean how exactly?
Why BU changed their proposal name to EC?
Who is manipulating the minds of the community now? did you think changing BU to EC will legitimize the proposal and effects people's mindset since BU was infamous among people?

devs removed the fee priority formulae
devs changed to a tx relay min cost and estimated fee mechanisms that if you had a damn spread sheet you could run scenarios that show fee's rise even while there is low demand.
so even if pool's had a block that accepted under X.. the fee estimates and other mechanisms still push the fee's up.. not down
this was all stuff added that didnt need full consensus to achieve. which is why people are so angry. the fee rules have changed and people had no choice/chance to veto. nor did they even realise it was happening until it was too late.

we need to stop allowing dev's to just do crap that can be slid in without consensus
as for the BU stuff

even before BU many people wanted bigger blocks, dynamic blocks etc. but it was BU that really hit the headlines and got all the conversations flowing.

EC and dynamic proposals existed before during and continually... but its only now people are realising that the EC(dynamics) is much bigger debate than just brand shaming BU.

however from what i can see. BU is still BU..
from what i can see BU is using a buzzword ABC (adjustable blocksize cap) which is along the same lines as EC.. but EC(dynamics) is not a BU product. dynamics is a concept that MANY brands/implementations can offer

 but atleast people are starting to see the concept of onchain scale growth using EC(dynamics), is much bigger than a single 'brand'

[Boseda]

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.

You've just described Dash, which aims to be (real) digital cash.


Anyway, what the OP said makes sense. Bitcoin is going to the wrong direction, yet they do nothing.

What you feel when reading this page: https://bitcoin.org/en/innovation ? It feels like false advertising.

Yes, at least the post about "Micro-Payments" should be removed.

[poplolnman]

Money makes the world go round, don't forget that. It's true that maybe at the begininig Bitcoin has engaged and gathered a lot of enthusiasts and visionaires but with time a lot of different people was attracted to Bitcoin with main purpose to get their share of profit and opportunity to make some money.
And I don't think this should necessary be wrong thought some would like to see more idealists.

it's good to see a lot of people get interested in bitcoin , but when the majority bitcoin user have a purpose to make it as a digital asset then the main purpose of bitcoin invention as a payment processor could get disappeared slowly. always needed to remind people about this , greedy sometimes make people forgot about the beautiful bitcoin purpose for the better financial world.

yes that is right.  there is no doubt that the popularity of bitcoin increasing from time to time but in fact they do not have all the facilities that we are expecting from  bitcoin. and which are available to us in fiat,  and that is the reason that most of the people are using bitcoin for trading and investment purposes, and not using it as currency, but in future we can expect that in future people will be using bitcoin as currency for purchasing everything they want.

everyone should expect about that thing otherwise the current ecosystem could just go broke and disappear. noone want it happened right? when people make bitcoin keep circulating by used in every single day , buy and spend it just the way people use fiat in daily life i believe the longer bitcoin could survive in financial technology world.

[David Horton]

In my opinion, I think the term Bitcoin is a digital gold derived when Bitcoin started having more value than Gold. I am saying this because the time BTC was below $1000, the term digital gold didn't exist. And I think people who are using it just want to say that BTC has more value than Gold, nothing more nothing less.

[ilovefeetsmell]

Yeah, I think Bitcoin will change payment system on the world's in future. It will replace old system: Banks, Paypal, Visa... and become to a currency freedom, not managent by any country, anyone!

Bitcoin did everything and overcome different payment system as like you've said. Bitcoin is decentralized, no one could control the bitcoin. We can share it with everyone, we can use it as payment tools. Bitcoin has gradually changed and the main reason why created bitcoin to much easier to us to make money. In my own opinion, bitcoin will overcome PayPal and others, this is just my opinion! don't be serious on that one. I feel great confidence with bitcoin. I belong to the bitcoin community and I am so proud of it.

[lonelygrimm]

wow, really nice perspective from you dude, your opinion is same with what i think. Bitcoin price change is too fast and too large, nobody can expect that will be happening,  i think some of satoshi goals not same from this day coindition, fee so large, late confirmation, and many more. But we must respect everybody opinion hehehe

[Boseda]

wow, really nice perspective from you dude, your opinion is same with what i think. Bitcoin price change is too fast and too large, nobody can expect that will be happening,  i think some of satoshi goals not same from this day coindition, fee so large, late confirmation, and many more. But we must respect everybody opinion hehehe

It's good many people here seem to have this opinion.

I think it's sad Bitcoin lost all of its rebellious and subversive charm.

Just look at how goverments and banks consider Bitcoin now. It's accepted in almost every country, with no problem for them while instead some years ago they considered Bitcoin as a very "evil" stuff, something dangerous to fight. In my opinion this is how it sould be; governments and banks should be afraid, should be scared and try to fight Bitcoin by any means. Why? Because Bitcoin has the power to kill 'em all!

But now they think something like this: "Ok, this whole Bitcoin stuff is completely harmless for us... people buy Bitcoin using dollars (and we earn), then sell it for Dollars (and we earn) then their profits are taxed (and we earn again!) That's no problem with Bitcoin, it's another way to make money for us!"

That's wrong, in my humble opinion.

[algernonen]

I don't like what you said
Everyone has their own ideas，You can't force him to change

[szpalata]

I think the OP is witnessing the change in people's perspective about Bitcoin since it's early years. It's been evolving and I think at this stage a lot of the people involved prefer to rather focus on the prices and what they might be earning should they sell or buy and I think we should leave them to their perception of Bitcoin.

[Boseda]

I think the OP is witnessing the change in people's perspective about Bitcoin since it's early years. It's been evolving and I think at this stage a lot of the people involved prefer to rather focus on the prices and what they might be earning should they sell or buy and I think we should leave them to their perception of Bitcoin.

Yes, it's not a good thing, but if people behave like this we just have to accept their opinions.

[Last of the V8s]

...

I think it's sad Bitcoin lost all of its rebellious and subversive charm.

Just look at how goverments and banks consider Bitcoin now. It's accepted in almost every country, with no problem for them while instead some years ago they considered Bitcoin as a very "evil" stuff, something dangerous to fight. In my opinion this is how it sould be; governments and banks should be afraid, should be scared and try to fight Bitcoin by any means. Why? Because Bitcoin has the power to kill 'em all!

But now they think something like this: "Ok, this whole Bitcoin stuff is completely harmless for us... people buy Bitcoin using dollars (and we earn), then sell it for Dollars (and we earn) then their profits are taxed (and we earn again!) That's no problem with Bitcoin, it's another way to make money for us!"

That's wrong, in my humble opinion.

there are some rebels left in bitcoin, just that few are left on this board.

meanwhile some in the govts are scared, which is why they try to subvert btc with scams like ethereum and Roger Ver. but mostly they are totally inept and can't see the tsunami rushing up towards them.

you may like: "These fools have been handed a technology so clever, so disruptive and revolutionary, that the rulers of the world would have to fully unmask themselves as ruthless tyrants in order to suppress it, — or give up their thrones on their own free will — if it were used correctly, that is." http://www.loper-os.org/?p=939

[dinofelis]

wow, really nice perspective from you dude, your opinion is same with what i think. Bitcoin price change is too fast and too large, nobody can expect that will be happening,  i think some of satoshi goals not same from this day coindition, fee so large, late confirmation, and many more. But we must respect everybody opinion hehehe

It's good many people here seem to have this opinion.

I think it's sad Bitcoin lost all of its rebellious and subversive charm.

Just look at how goverments and banks consider Bitcoin now. It's accepted in almost every country, with no problem for them while instead some years ago they considered Bitcoin as a very "evil" stuff, something dangerous to fight. In my opinion this is how it sould be; governments and banks should be afraid, should be scared and try to fight Bitcoin by any means. Why? Because Bitcoin has the power to kill 'em all!

But now they think something like this: "Ok, this whole Bitcoin stuff is completely harmless for us... people buy Bitcoin using dollars (and we earn), then sell it for Dollars (and we earn) then their profits are taxed (and we earn again!) That's no problem with Bitcoin, it's another way to make money for us!"

That's wrong, in my humble opinion.

And they are right.  They have seen that bitcoin is not what it claimed to be, namely a freedom money which would scare the hell out of them (and which it did, in the early years), but is a system designed for greedy people to play speculative games on.  And that's what they like. The greedy people playing speculative games (which is how bitcoin was designed, with huge initial emission, and later restricted amount of coins) are the ones cheering when there's regulation ("this will increase the adoption of bitcoin, and increase the price and allow me to become even more wealthy sitting on my arse and my stash"), they are the ones causing huge volatility making bitcoin unsuitable as a currency, and they are the ones causing returns on investment on bitcoin that will make financial institutions play the game too.
Because bitcoin was designed to be a greedy people's toy in a greater fool game, and not a currency.  Because of its huge initial supply, and its restricted emission in the future.

Moreover, bitcoin has now killed all possibilities to create a real freedom currency.  Bitcoin will be hailed by the powers that be as the tool that ended their nightmare of someone inventing a freedom currency.  Banks will praise it as the speculative tools that replaces those they were taken away after their 2007 crisis.

[hajimasan]

I'm writing this post because I see it everywhere on this forum. People who just talk about Bitcoin pump(s), $ price, € price and so on... even most legendary members do it!


I think most Bitcoin users miss what Bitcoin really is and what Satoshi wanted it to be.
If you read the white paper, there's no mention about Bitcoin as a digital asset. Satoshi just wanted to create a payment system, a strong one and much better than the traditional ones.

But right now, Bitcoin is mainly considered as a digital asset, digital gold, just an investment tool to make (quick) profit. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I think Bitcoin users are raping Satoshi's original view, thinking only about BTC's value on exchanges.


What most don't understand is that Satoshi gave us a huge power. The power to destroy and make disappear forever the whole old banking system, other online payment systems like paypal and maybe governments too. Forever.

He gave us the power to decentralize everything using the blockchain technology. In short, Satoshi gave us the power the change the world for the better.


So why are you focusing only on Bitcoin's price on exchanges?


Imagine this.

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.


But now, Bitcoin has becomed just a digital asset. Maybe a toy for rich people to get even richer.
What's so revolutionary about it? The world is already full of assets and investment tool...


In short, Bitcoin lost most of its revolutionary appeal.

I strongly suggest you to change your consideration about Bitcoin. Now it's time to choose, because what we - as a community - decide now will influence all the future history of Bitcoin.


So, what do you prefer? A brick of gold or a better world?

yes bitcoin is not only about price and making profit and even some think bitcoin as investment to make profit but not at all such. People buy bitcoin and keep hold those bitcoin to sell when price gets up but actually the main intention of satoshi was to make the world revolutionize so he had introduced such currency to make hassle free transaction across the world and with full privacy and security but we the common people had managed to make profit only.
Yes kore it's the tume to change our perspective and we should see bitcoin as currency instead of money making and investment. Bitcoin is simple a currency and we should use it in our day to day life where ever possible do that out next generation could go cashless and that with secure technology.

And i am impressed with your forward steps towards bitcoin and yes together we can make the change if we have positive thinking and efforts. And we should start the journey of cashless transaction and in future wr could take pride that yes we did it nad the world is following us.

[Boseda]

And they are right.  They have seen that bitcoin is not what it claimed to be, namely a freedom money which would scare the hell out of them (and which it did, in the early years), but is a system designed for greedy people to play speculative games on.  And that's what they like. The greedy people playing speculative games (which is how bitcoin was designed, with huge initial emission, and later restricted amount of coins) are the ones cheering when there's regulation ("this will increase the adoption of bitcoin, and increase the price and allow me to become even more wealthy sitting on my arse and my stash"), they are the ones causing huge volatility making bitcoin unsuitable as a currency, and they are the ones causing returns on investment on bitcoin that will make financial institutions play the game too.
Because bitcoin was designed to be a greedy people's toy in a greater fool game, and not a currency.  Because of its huge initial supply, and its restricted emission in the future.

Moreover, bitcoin has now killed all possibilities to create a real freedom currency.  Bitcoin will be hailed by the powers that be as the tool that ended their nightmare of someone inventing a freedom currency.  Banks will praise it as the speculative tools that replaces those they were taken away after their 2007 crisis.

I still believe Satoshi's original view was to revolutionize the world and maybe destroy all the old financial system, not to build - as you said - "a system designed for greedy people to play speculative games on". But we'll never know what Satoshi really thought and also it's kinda useless to know it. He gave all the Bitcoin power to us and now it's only up to us.

I'm also still optimistic and I truly believe Bitcoin could still be the "freedom currency" we dream about. But changing the consideration people have about Bitcoin won't be easy though...

[ChiBitCTy]

If Bitcoin was more widely accepted as a medium to purchase goods (at least here in the United States) then the viewing of Bitcoin as a mere investment or commodity wouldn't be as strong as it is.  I see more good than bad here however. The skyrocketing value means more people are getting involved in Bitcoin  and it's hard to see how that could be a bad thing at this point in time. As someone who's been involved(buying, selling, using as a purchasing method, researcher etc) with Bitcoin for the past 2 years (as well as a financial advisor) I've recently had several friends reach out to me with all sorts of questions. I would say half of them are investors and half are "want to be" enthusiasts in its tech/decentralization/payment medium aspects.  There is no possible way that Bitcoin could have steadily grown in users/value without this "investment" aspect. In many ways it's acting just like an exciting stock that promises big things moving forward. With stocks there will always be buyers and sellers (as there are with government controlled currencies). 

The way I see it, things could be so much worse off than they currently are (if you're upset with the investors simply looking to make a profit).  BTC is still in its infancy and this will continue to some extent for years to come. At least I sure hope it does because that is what's realistic and if it doesn't..then it likely means it has failed. Just my 2.

[haroldtee]

And that is not true. Come to Africa and we will convince you to use bitcoin. I am an African, precisely Nigeria and I know the rate at which bitcoin is going viral down here. Everyday, people ask questions about bitcoin and I have never seen a week that I haven't discussed bitcoin anywhere I find myself. Wanna check out the payment systems exchanging bitcoin to my currency everyday? You have no idea. I don't know why you must have mentioned that but that notion is totally wrong.

are you inner city talking to the rich..
or actually talking to normal people.

people 'discussing/asking about bitcoin' is different than people USING bitcoin

how many have actually used bitcoin (without hoarding in exchanges) to notice the tx fee to move funds is more than some people weeks wage.

i have spoken to many people in many countries.. they love the premiss of bitcoin, its original ethos and ideology, but when it comes to actually using it. they start to notice the flaws. the only people that then continue to want bitcoin are those too afraid to cash out or too greedy to cash out due to hopes of 'becoming rich' in the future.

bitcoin has lost all its ideology as a currency and 3rd world/developing countries are usually first to point out this fact once they get passed the sales pitch and start using it. finding its not a 'daily life' currency like Mpesa. but instead a retirement plan

it seems even you yourself recognise the issues

Bitcoin is gradually becoming non-affordable for lower class for transaction purposes unless they just want to buy very little and keep as an investment. Moreover, the very little one can buy from most exchange sites, is still a bit on the high side. Also, transaction fees are increasing by the day, which is quite appalling. Best way to just get bitcoin now for lower masses is just to partake in stuffs that makes them earn bitcoin if they are well informed enough. So back to his question! In a way it is available to all levels of society and in a way it isn't.

I totally understand your perspective and you are right. Like you said, it is gradually loosing its ideology as currency and most people are beginning to view it now as an asset rather than a means of transaction. The reason why I use Bitcoin to make transaction today is because I do a lot of foreign transactions, which I still feel is faster, easier and better compared to the likes of western union or restriction of my country's foreign transaction limit. Hardly will you see people globally now not hoarding their Bitcoin believing in its power to make them rich in future. I can't say they are greedy, that is just human nature. I thought about it too that if I had not used it as a transaction in the past, then maybe I would have been richer by now. Most people using bitcoin are the rich ones who believed it aids them in transacting, not the masses who wants to get rich quickly (that's how some people are seeing it now anyway...  A Get-Rich-Quick scheme).

[vrm86]

There are two things regarding this problem, that I can think of:
1. Transaction fees - it's really discouraging to pay several dollars to perform payment. You can choose to wait unspecified amount of time if fee would be too low. Alts or even bank transfers are more reliable at the moment.
2. That's how free market works. If we expect from BTC to be wide adopted, it's obvious, that demand could exceed supply. I think, that Satoshi made Bitcoin divisible by 100 millions with purpose

[Boseda]

there is no harm too if bitcoin serve as an investment asset .

Ok, but just think about the forex market. Are the currencies you trade on forex markets considered digital assets or long-term investments?

Look at paypal, western union, skrill, are they considered long-term investments?

If we want Bitcoin to overcome other currencies and payments systems, we need to consider Bitcoin just like we consider the other things I mentioned above: ie a currency and a payment system.

Otherwise, consider it as a digital asset, compare it to gold and forget about using it for your daily transaction...

[dinofelis]

If Bitcoin was more widely accepted as a medium to purchase goods (at least here in the United States) then the viewing of Bitcoin as a mere investment or commodity wouldn't be as strong as it is.  I see more good than bad here however. The skyrocketing value means more people are getting involved in Bitcoin  and it's hard to see how that could be a bad thing at this point in time. As someone who's been involved(buying, selling, using as a purchasing method, researcher etc) with Bitcoin for the past 2 years (as well as a financial advisor) I've recently had several friends reach out to me with all sorts of questions. I would say half of them are investors and half are "want to be" enthusiasts in its tech/decentralization/payment medium aspects.  There is no possible way that Bitcoin could have steadily grown in users/value without this "investment" aspect.

Of course it could have.  In fact, it would even have been easier.  The thing that was needed, was NOT to have automatic difficulty adjustement, but to have a programmed difficulty curve, and NOT have a diminishing block reward.  That would actually have made the code and protocol simpler.  In fact, one could even have modified it: the difficulty of a block depends on how much block reward you want to give yourself !

Imagine that it takes about, say, $10 000.- to mine a block in which you give yourself a block reward of 1 BTC.  It takes so much in hardware and electricity, the difficulty has been set that way.  But you could then also mine a block with a reward of 1 mBTC, and that would only cost you $10.-.  People could mine as many blocks as they want ; they could publish a block every 3 seconds if they want to.  But it would cost them always about $10 000.- to make themselves a single BTC.  This would more or less peg the value of a bitcoin to more or less $10 000.-

It would make the system even more permissionless, it wouldn't give all the power in the hands of a few miners, there wouldn't be any seigniorage (all coins you make, cost you about what they are worth, and there's no hope for value increase).  The system would be much more decentralized.  There wouldn't be any temptation for speculation.  It would be a currency, and nothing else ; and everybody could make some, but there would be no point in making any if the market price is below the $10 000.- a coin (so no coin production AT ALL) ; there would be a huge incentive to make more of it when the market price is higher than $10 000.- a coin.

I would also propose a "destruction fee" of, say, 0.5% of the amount transacted, but that is destroyed instead of won by the consensus miner.  As such, the global stash diminishes, in case there's no tendency for a coin to grow to $10 000.-
(note that there's no pegging to any $ value, but rather to a cost of mining, which is a real economic cost, and hence a genuine economic value).

Such a crypto would be a true currency and nothing else.

[dinofelis]

there is no harm too if bitcoin serve as an investment asset .

Ok, but just think about the forex market. Are the currencies you trade on forex markets considered digital assets or long-term investments?

The forex market is not the principal determinant of currencies' prices.  Even if a currency is almost not traded by speculators on forex markets, its value is determined by the economy you buy with it, independently of people speculating on it or not.  Forex are speculators, going with the tide of currencies, that have their market price determined mainly NOT by those speculators.  With crypto, it is the opposite.

If you speculate on the price of wood, but the wood market price is essentially determined by non-speculative offer and demand, then you can always do so, the wood price is a real utility price.  A currency also has a real utility price (given by Fisher's formula).  But if the price of an asset is mainly determined by demand and offer of those speculating on it, that totally changes the asset's nature, and it becomes a purely speculative asset then, of which the utility value is negligible.  That's the case with crypto.

[Lorilikes]

I'm writing this post because I see it everywhere on this forum. People who just talk about Bitcoin pump(s), $ price, € price and so on... even most legendary members do it!


I think most Bitcoin users miss what Bitcoin really is and what Satoshi wanted it to be.
If you read the white paper, there's no mention about Bitcoin as a digital asset. Satoshi just wanted to create a payment system, a strong one and much better than the traditional ones.

But right now, Bitcoin is mainly considered as a digital asset, digital gold, just an investment tool to make (quick) profit. That's wrong, in my opinion.

I think Bitcoin users are raping Satoshi's original view, thinking only about BTC's value on exchanges.


What most don't understand is that Satoshi gave us a huge power. The power to destroy and make disappear forever the whole old banking system, other online payment systems like paypal and maybe governments too. Forever.

He gave us the power to decentralize everything using the blockchain technology. In short, Satoshi gave us the power the change the world for the better.


So why are you focusing only on Bitcoin's price on exchanges?


Imagine this.

A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
A world without banks.
A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.


I think Satoshi's original view was very revolutionary.
A decentralized payment system and a deflationary currency. A real digital cash.


But now, Bitcoin has becomed just a digital asset. Maybe a toy for rich people to get even richer.
What's so revolutionary about it? The world is already full of assets and investment tool...


In short, Bitcoin lost most of its revolutionary appeal.

I strongly suggest you to change your consideration about Bitcoin. Now it's time to choose, because what we - as a community - decide now will influence all the future history of Bitcoin.


So, what do you prefer? A brick of gold or a better world?

we are still at the stage we want the world to LIKE US as the new kid in town...the price of BTC gives us hope that maybe what you state above can happen

but we are a little bit skittish yet...I assume if bitcoin hits 10k and has more use ..things will go as you state...as of now we are in the WTH stage of awe

and BTC price going up ...is a reflection of adoption and holding.....thus security at least for those of us holding bitcoin  

I admire the fierce tone of the original poster, and I have to give you a *high five for your vigorous presentation of the topic.  I LOVED the reply (quoted above) describing our state of collective awe. 
I am still laughing at this candid and playful truth.  We really are still baffled by the beauty of the sparkling Bitcoin phenomenon.  We all are.   Even the guys who are cluttering the internet with sales pitches that push gimmicky viewpoints like  the original poster is protesting.  The exploitation of anything profitable is guaranteed, no matter what the product. 
In the USA, regarding use of Bitcoin; much like real estate, it can be paper trailed as an asset to manipulate tax consequences.
In the USA An individual has the option to deem its btc an asset,  thanks to "Uncle Sam" and his gold-lined-pockets. Uncle Sam, aka the government likes its gold-pocket-lining and wishes to control the lining of as many pockets as possible to continue oppressing the sheep (aka the people). At least that is how it feels here in the USA. 

I am not endorsing the actions of any individual or entity, nor am I passing judgement, I am just trying to see through eyes of the people who are actively "pooping on the Bitcoin party". I want to see from their perspective so I can get a better look at the motivation ahead of the mishaps.  Problems are definitely coming if the conspiracy is in motion. 
I have no doubt in the strength and the continuity of beloved Bitcoin even if there are sinister forces trying to resist it. 

Bitcoin needs no defender.   The manipulative actions of Reuters, MSN, Big Banks, JPmorgan and all of the clowns selling btc as a product, are either scared of Bitcoin or they are profiting as wolves while tending their sheep. 
The gimmicky clowns are not guilty of much... because they are trained without their own consent by the media such as MSN. 

I should probably lock my front door now.

For the written record I am a big fan of Bill Gates however- his companies undermine the  power and freedom that Bitcoin offers. I see it daily in headlines by MSN even though Gates is often quoted saying how fond he is of Bitcoin. 
As interesting as it all is, I am confident that Bitcoin will NOT soon fail.
I predict Bitcoin to be favored by all these scared wealthy groups.  Soon. 

[Boseda]

The forex market is not the principal determinant of currencies' prices.  Even if a currency is almost not traded by speculators on forex markets, its value is determined by the economy you buy with it, independently of people speculating on it or not.  Forex are speculators, going with the tide of currencies, that have their market price determined mainly NOT by those speculators.  With crypto, it is the opposite.

That's exactly the problem. Only speculation and no economy.

[RodeoX]

I agree with your basic premise, but there is also the idea that we are not going to tell each other what to do with our money. That is the hard part about freedom. Freedom is not when you get to do what you want. It is when you are willing to allow others to do what you don't want them to do.

Yes, your opinion about freedom is true.

But I think you didn't understand my OP very well.
I didn't say people cannot use Bitcoin for whatever they want... it's their money and in my opinion they are free to use it how they prefer, even in ways I don't like (for example buying drugs, etc.)

Yet the fact is that most people consider Bitcoin not a payment system, but rather a digital asset.
This is the point. There's a sort of misconception about Bitcoin, in my opinion...

rodeox its not about telling people what they can do or not do with their money... its about waking people up to the fact that while some people are only looking at the price.. devs are screwing with the code and reducing what people can do with their money.

im sure you will see this when you visit africa and realise that trying to convince africans to use bitcoin is alot harder than trying to convince the icelandics

Now that I get it better I guess we are all on the same page. I would love to see retail adoption rather than a speculative economy. IMO, that is where bitcoin's strengths are. And as you both mention, economic liberty is a non-negotiable feature. 

[Last of the V8s]

I agree with your basic premise, but there is also the idea that we are not going to tell each other what to do with our money. That is the hard part about freedom. Freedom is not when you get to do what you want. It is when you are willing to allow others to do what you don't want them to do.

Yes, your opinion about freedom is true.

But I think you didn't understand my OP very well.
I didn't say people cannot use Bitcoin for whatever they want... it's their money and in my opinion they are free to use it how they prefer, even in ways I don't like (for example buying drugs, etc.)

Yet the fact is that most people consider Bitcoin not a payment system, but rather a digital asset.
This is the point. There's a sort of misconception about Bitcoin, in my opinion...

rodeox its not about telling people what they can do or not do with their money... its about waking people up to the fact that while some people are only looking at the price.. devs are screwing with the code and reducing what people can do with their money.

im sure you will see this when you visit africa and realise that trying to convince africans to use bitcoin is alot harder than trying to convince the icelandics

Now that I get it better I guess we are all on the same page. I would love to see retail adoption rather than a speculative economy. IMO, that is where bitcoin's strengths are. And as you both mention, economic liberty is a non-negotiable feature. 

I'm lost now. Did you mean to log in as this Boseda?

[GXHPP]

it's not just about the price, it's about the use and adoption as well, and using the currency as it should be used, as a method to send and receive payments and That's my opinion as well, but we have to accept there are people investing in BTC like that, it is their free choice and option to use their money and BTC. We can't just tell them to not do that.

[Lorilikes]

it's not just about the price, it's about the use and adoption as well, and using the currency as it should be used, as a method to send and receive payments and That's my opinion as well, but we have to accept there are people investing in BTC like that, it is their free choice and option to use their money and BTC. We can't just tell them to not do that.

The real paradox, if we are free to choose and free to speak than I suppose it is our freedom to listen or tune it out. 

Bitcoin will survive all of the various challenges regardless.  We will all be richer for it!

= )

[stompix]

Imagine this.

• A world where you can send money anywhere and to anyone in the world, instantly and with low fees.
  A world where you can buy anything using Bitcoin, from coffees to yatchs.
  A world where you can get all the privacy you want.
  A world without banks.
  A world without old currencies, that only create inflation.
  A world where you pay only the taxes you wanna pay and not what you are forced to pay.
  

• Somebody has to pay for that or for the security of the network. Hence it won't happen.
  Yeah, you can pretty much buy everything right now. The problem is that you can buy yachts in a country and airline tickets in other
  Not going to happen.
  Not going to happen.
  I doubt it will happen in my nepheews lifetime.
  Lols, keep dreaming and tell that to the doctor when you wake up.