Forex broker plus500 has opened for Bitcoin trading.

[Bitsinmyhead]

I think this is pretty huge. Plus500 is a pretty large and solid site. They even run a lot of TV ads here in Norway. You get 4:1 leverage, meaning if you deposit 200 you can trade with 800, and you can also short. Best part is they accept credit card deposits so it is probably the easiest way to get into Bitcoins for a lot of people even though its only "paper Bitcoin". Unfortunately  they do not accept US customers.

[1714118699]

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[1714118699]

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[1714118699]

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[1714118699]

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[1714118699]

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[Seth Otterstad]

How can they possibly offer trading at under 1% spread?

http://www.plus500.co.uk/Instruments/BTCUSD

[molecular]

cool.

is it possible to take delivery of the bitcoins?

[Bitsinmyhead]

How can they possibly offer trading at under 1% spread?

http://www.plus500.co.uk/Instruments/BTCUSD

Seems amazing and I really doubt they can make money with that tight of a spread. Maybe its some kind of marketing decision to get a bunch of new customers?

is it possible to take delivery of the bitcoins?

No, but maybe in the future if they add Bitcoin deposit/withdrawals.

[lexxus]

cool.

is it possible to take delivery of the bitcoins?

Delivery? This is CFD.

[Stampbit]

thats a pretty tight spread there

[molecular]

thats a pretty tight spread there

maybe they just make it up in fees somehow?

[MartinReynolds]

This is pretty awesome, hopefully they enable Bitcoin withdrawals and it would be a bit of competition with MtGox.

[sd]

This is pretty awesome, hopefully they enable Bitcoin withdrawals and it would be a bit of competition with MtGox.

There are no BitCoins, it's a contract for difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_for_difference

[MartinReynolds]

This is pretty awesome, hopefully they enable Bitcoin withdrawals and it would be a bit of competition with MtGox.

There are no BitCoins, it's a contract for difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_for_difference

Oh right, I guess I didn't understand it.  I will have to read up on it.

Regards,

Martin.

[Bitsinmyhead]

maybe they just make it up in fees somehow?

No other fees, in fact they have some very nice deposit bonuses:
http://www.plus500.com/en/Marketing/Promotion1.aspx?id=67176&pl=2

If you are only into Bitcoins for the trading, you probably save money by using them instead of Mt. Gox.

[MarCoin]

Warning! CFD price can be easily manipulated by those brokers (but anyway, Gox does it too). Lot of broker's profits comes from price manipulation, not from spread or commissions

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Warning! CFD price can be easily manipulated by those brokers (but anyway, Gox does it too). Lot of broker's profits comes from price manipulation, not from spread or commissions

On the other hand, 1broker closed down BTCUSD because of users manipulating prices.

[Bitsinmyhead]

Manipulation can certainly be a problem, but it is usually a bigger problem when the leverage is higher. With 4:1 leverage you would need to move the price almost 25% to force someone out.

Still, 4:1 leverage is pretty sick, and if you time your entry well in a trending market like this there is a lot of money to be made. Bought 8 Coins yesterday putting up just ~200 Euro and I am already up well over 50% on my account.

[bangersdad]

Plus500 do not like scalpers...be warned. They also refused to define what they consider to be scalping - but still froze my account.

I have also seen screen evidence of plus500 disabling the buy/sell options when a market becomes volatile.

I think playing with small money no problem - but i know i would not trust plus500 with a large amount of my fiat.

[Bitsinmyhead]

Ye, whenever you make a winning trade you literally take money out of their pockets and they don't like that much. However as long as you keep your position for more than a couple of minutes you will not have any problems with their scalping rules.

Obviously, if you are going to take a huge long term position it will be better to just buy the coins on Gox, but for quick and easy access to buying when you hear some positive news like this China stuff it is great. Avoids the pain of just seeing the price go up and up while you wait for the wire transfer to hit Gox. Also, remember plus500 is actually regulated in the UK so should something go wrong you at least have a chance compared to some of these Bitcoin sites.

[SOSLOVE868]

maybe they just make it up in fees somehow?

No other fees, in fact they have some very nice deposit bonuses:
http://www.plus500.com/en/Marketing/Promotion1.aspx?id=67176&pl=2

If you are only into Bitcoins for the trading, you probably save money by using them instead of Mt. Gox.

Their bonuses for me just like traps....you need at least accumulate trading amount up to 60 times of your deposit , then you can get withdraw you money...it is better not to take their bonuses.. but for some one who hold huge amount of BTC, it is wise to use their service to hedging the risk of BITCOIN.

[Bitsinmyhead]

If you use the site to buy and hold you are correct, its probably best to avoid the bonus, but if you trade somewhat active you will go through bonus requirements in no time.

Lets do the math:
-If I deposit $5000 I get $1100 bonus.
-I need 1000 traderpoints to be able to cash this out.
-For every $1250 or about 10 Bitcoins that I buy or sell I receive 11.25 points.

All it would take to cash out this bonus will be to buy or sell 870 Bitcoins. With the 4:1 leverage I have $20 000 in buying power with my $5000 deposit so it would take me about 5 trades to be able to cash out. Not too bad, and if you have done any Bitcoin trading you know you can do that in a day

[SOSLOVE868]

If you use the site to buy and hold you are correct, its probably best to avoid the bonus, but if you trade somewhat active you will go through bonus requirements in no time.

Lets do the math:
-If I deposit $5000 I get $1100 bonus.
-I need 1000 traderpoints to be able to cash this out.
-For every $1250 or about 10 Bitcoins that I buy or sell I receive 11.25 points.

All it would take to cash out this bonus will be to buy or sell 870 Bitcoins. With the 4:1 leverage I have $20 000 in buying power with my $5000 deposit so it would take me about 5 trades to be able to cash out. Not too bad, and if you have done any Bitcoin trading you know you can do that in a day

you are wrong, that if you deposit £5000 you only get £500...if you deposit £7500 you will get £1000.
and for example, able to withdraw this £500, required £1000 trading point.
for trading bitcoin you will get 750 for 10.11 trading point. for that 500, you need to trading amount up to 75000.which mean you need hold full stock for 13.36 times.  I think this is very risk...and remember each time you purchased stock they will charge you.

[Bitsinmyhead]

I think the bonuses might be different for different countries then. Here in Norway it is NOK7500 ($1100) for NOK30000 ($5000). The rest of my math is correct, so it should be very easy to clear.

Even if what you are saying is true for UK, you need to remember you have 4:1 leverage so if you deposit £5000 you actually get to trade with £20000, making the £75000 requirement less than 4 full trades.

Of course I 100% agree that trading with leverage can be very risky, but so are most Bitcoin related things.

[SOSLOVE868]

I think the bonuses might be different for different countries then. Here in Norway it is NOK7500 ($1100) for NOK30000 ($5000). The rest of my math is correct, so it should be very easy to clear.

Even if what you are saying is true for UK, you need to remember you have 4:1 leverage so if you deposit £5000 you actually get to trade with £20000, making the £75000 requirement less than 4 full trades.

Of course I 100% agree that trading with leverage can be very risky, but so are most Bitcoin related things.

I have check the table ,leverage isn't count in trading point.....
We still need full trading of the £5500 for about 13 times.....
 

[spndr7]

This is pretty awesome, hopefully they enable Bitcoin withdrawals and it would be a bit of competition with MtGox.

Screenshot of
http://www.plus500.com/Instruments/BTCUSD

No competition, it is using mtgox price API,its the same as trading on Mtgox with different spread,hedging and 4:1 leverage.

[Bitsinmyhead]

In these slow markets it sure helps to have 4:1 leverage, meaning a 2% swing in price gives you potential of 8% win (or loss  ), helps me from falling a sleep. Still waiting for a nice trend to jump on to make some big $$$.

[Seth Otterstad]

Since I am wildly bullish on bitcoin and do not expect it to drop in half, is it reasonable to load money on this site, buy at 2:1 leverage, and then leave it?  What are the downsides compared to just holding coins myself at 1:1?

[Bitsinmyhead]

No downside as far as I can tell. I actually feel more comfortable having money on a FSA regulated site than on most of these Bitcoin exchanges...

[naphto]

thats a pretty tight spread there

Are you for real? This is a huge spread. I would say that it is not profitable to trade btc/usd on plus500 for that reason.


Spread on btc/usd = 1.03 usd
Difference between high/low on btc/usd = 9.43 usd
10.92 %

Spread on crude oil/usd = 0.05 usd
Difference between high/low on crude oil/usd = 0.89 usd
5.62 %

Spread on eur/usd = 0.0002 usd
Difference between high/low on eur/usd = 0.0075 usd
2.66 %



The spread represents 10 % of the difference between the maximum and minimum values reach in the last 24 hours, but it should be between 2 and 5 %.

[01BTC10]

The bonus are easy to clear but fees/spread adds up very quickly. They freeze the buy/sell button when the market is volatile. Price is always rigged in their favour. I'm still trading with them hoping to get a painless first cashout. Since I discovered margin trading I can't sleep anymore.  

Why is everyone talking about 4:1 leverage when it's 1:4?

[Seth Otterstad]

I don't understand the posted screenshot and the spread.  The screenshot says "buy 113.79" and "sell 112.76".  What will I actually pay to buy a bitcoin in that case?

[Bitsinmyhead]

You pay 113.79 and can sell at 112.76. I wonder how this is going to work out for them as most of the people I have talked to have bought through them, not going to be easy for them to keep a balanced book.

[joesmoe2012]

That spread doesn't seem -that- bad. It's not as competitive as elsewhere but I don't understand why people are talking about 10 percent.

I'm in for an account.

Don't forget, bitfinex offers leveraged trading as well.

[Bitsinmyhead]

Spread is actually very good and I doubt anyone else will be able to offer anything better. I actually fear they will have to widen it if they don't want to lose money. Remember there is no other fees like the 0.6% commission on Gox. Also, with the leverage you basically get to borrow money for free to trade with.

Finally, don't forget the awesome first time deposit bonuses they offer:
http://www.plus500.com/en/Marketing/Promotion1.aspx?id=67176&pl=2

Now if only Gox would offer something similar... 

[Seth Otterstad]

There are a bunch of negative reviews of plus500, but I have a feeling it is just idiots who aren't following the rules.   I found an email interview they gave that was interesting.  It says they have over 1 million users!
http://hatemostpeople.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/plus500-scam-real-interview-focused-on.html

[GambitBTC]

Simply incredible

[spndr7]

There are a bunch of negative reviews of plus500, but I have a feeling it is just idiots who aren't following the rules.   I found an email interview they gave that was interesting.  It says they have over 1 million users!
http://hatemostpeople.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/plus500-scam-real-interview-focused-on.html

Ya,its review is poor on forex peace army.

http://www.forexpeacearmy.com/public/review/www.plus500.com

I think its not a registered brokerage firm

Notice of cyprus govt.

[molecular]

That spread doesn't seem -that- bad. It's not as competitive as elsewhere but I don't understand why people are talking about 10 percent.

I'm in for an account.

Don't forget, bitfinex offers leveraged trading as well.

As opposed to plus500 bitfinex is not a bucketshop. Bitfinex actually trades the underlying asset when you open a position.

plus500 is a bucketshop, right?

As defined by the U.S. Supreme Court a bucket shop is "[a]n establishment, nominally for the transaction of a stock exchange business, or business of similar character, but really for the registration of bets, or wagers, usually for small amounts, on the rise or fall of the prices of stocks, grain, oil, etc., there being no transfer or delivery of the stock or commodities nominally dealt in."

And they take the other side of the bet in case there is no other customer taking the opposite bet, correct?

Do they hedge against the market going the wrong way somehow if things become too unbalanced in their books?

I'd really like to know how such a shop works. Is it like satoshidice?

[01BTC10]

That spread doesn't seem -that- bad. It's not as competitive as elsewhere but I don't understand why people are talking about 10 percent.

I'm in for an account.

Don't forget, bitfinex offers leveraged trading as well.

As opposed to plus500 bitfinex is not a bucketshop. Bitfinex actually trades the underlying asset when you open a position.

plus500 is a bucketshop, right?

As defined by the U.S. Supreme Court a bucket shop is "[a]n establishment, nominally for the transaction of a stock exchange business, or business of similar character, but really for the registration of bets, or wagers, usually for small amounts, on the rise or fall of the prices of stocks, grain, oil, etc., there being no transfer or delivery of the stock or commodities nominally dealt in."

And they take the other side of the bet in case there is no other customer taking the opposite bet, correct?

Do they hedge against the market going the wrong way somehow if things become too unbalanced in their books?

I'd really like to know how such a shop works. Is it like satoshidice?

http://www.ebusinessreviews.net/2011/02/learn-how-forex-brokers-make-money.html

No idea if they hedge their book...

[Grinder]

Since I am wildly bullish on bitcoin and do not expect it to drop in half, is it reasonable to load money on this site, buy at 2:1 leverage, and then leave it?  What are the downsides compared to just holding coins myself at 1:1?

You'll have to pay a 0.05% daily fee (~20%/year) for holding the position.

[Seth Otterstad]

Since I am wildly bullish on bitcoin and do not expect it to drop in half, is it reasonable to load money on this site, buy at 2:1 leverage, and then leave it?  What are the downsides compared to just holding coins myself at 1:1?

You'll have to pay a 0.05% daily fee (~20%/year) for holding the position.

I thought there would be a catch.  Thanks for identifying it.

[Hfleer]

I think this is pretty huge. Plus500 is a pretty large and solid site. They even run a lot of TV ads here in Norway. You get 4:1 leverage, meaning if you deposit 200 you can trade with 800, and you can also short. Best part is they accept credit card deposits so it is probably the easiest way to get into Bitcoins for a lot of people even though its only "paper Bitcoin". Unfortunately  they do not accept US customers.

Sound interesting, i'll take a look.

[01BTC10]

Since I am wildly bullish on bitcoin and do not expect it to drop in half, is it reasonable to load money on this site, buy at 2:1 leverage, and then leave it?  What are the downsides compared to just holding coins myself at 1:1?

You'll have to pay a 0.05% daily fee (~20%/year) for holding the position.

Where do you see a daily fee? Premium time?

[jomay]

And they take the other side of the bet in case there is no other customer taking the opposite bet, correct?

Do they hedge against the market going the wrong way somehow if things become too unbalanced in their books?

I'd really like to know how such a shop works. Is it like satoshidice?

Last time I interviewed with one of the CFD brokers (which is a while back) they had human traders that would run a book. The trader would decide if the book should be rather long or short and profit from that.

In essence, they do the same thing as you guys trading bitcoins - but they try to make the 1% spread as well. They just need to "convince" people (by moving the price) to buy/sell them at the wrong time. The 20%/year financing fee is just the icing on top. Financing is usually free intraday...

You pay 113.79 and can sell at 112.76. I wonder how this is going to work out for them as most of the people I have talked to have bought through them, not going to be easy for them to keep a balanced book.

Ah, I was wondering how they manage to offer shorts on BTC. Now I know!
(FYI: they can simply loan the customers BTC to the shorters. Smart move by them. Building up the BTC position is a one time thing.)

The real question is: what happens if everybody wants to short BTC on Plus500???

[Bakemono]

Is there a catch in the 25 euros bonus with no deposit requirement?

[Raoul Duke]

Is there a catch in the 25 euros bonus with no deposit requirement?

You need to identify yourself and receive a letter from them with a verification code

[01BTC10]

You also need 60 traders points.

[BtcBling]

Be warned. They do their money with heavy advertising attracting newcomers with no idea about what they are doing while amazed about their trading "limits". Very sophisticated system eats your money very easily.

[Grinder]

Where do you see a daily fee? Premium time?

Yes. http://www.plus500.com/Help/HelpFees.aspx#nightpremuim

[molecular]

And they take the other side of the bet in case there is no other customer taking the opposite bet, correct?

Do they hedge against the market going the wrong way somehow if things become too unbalanced in their books?

I'd really like to know how such a shop works. Is it like satoshidice?

Last time I interviewed with one of the CFD brokers (which is a while back) they had human traders that would run a book. The trader would decide if the book should be rather long or short and profit from that.

In essence, they do the same thing as you guys trading bitcoins - but they try to make the 1% spread as well. They just need to "convince" people (by moving the price) to buy/sell them at the wrong time. The 20%/year financing fee is just the icing on top. Financing is usually free intraday...

You pay 113.79 and can sell at 112.76. I wonder how this is going to work out for them as most of the people I have talked to have bought through them, not going to be easy for them to keep a balanced book.

Ah, I was wondering how they manage to offer shorts on BTC. Now I know!
(FYI: they can simply loan the customers BTC to the shorters. Smart move by them. Building up the BTC position is a one time thing.)

The real question is: what happens if everybody wants to short BTC on Plus500???

hm? as I understand it there are no BTC involved at all. No BTC are borrowed or sold on mtgox. It's just CFD (contract for difference), basically a betting site.

[molecular]

Is there a catch in the 25 euros bonus with no deposit requirement?

you have to register personal details and phone number verification is mandatory.

[naphto]

Is there a catch in the 25 euros bonus with no deposit requirement?

you have to register personal details and phone number verification is mandatory.

You also have to trade that amount of money in order to allow the broker to win effectively more than the 25 euros they gave you in order to be able to withdraw it, which is unlikely that anyone is able to withdraw it without making a deposit or being lucky.

[jomay]

Ah, I was wondering how they manage to offer shorts on BTC. Now I know!
(FYI: they can simply loan the customers BTC to the shorters. Smart move by them. Building up the BTC position is a one time thing.)

The real question is: what happens if everybody wants to short BTC on Plus500???

hm? as I understand it there are no BTC involved at all. No BTC are borrowed or sold on mtgox. It's just CFD (contract for difference), basically a betting site.

I don't think you truly understand how CFDs are synthesized. What do you think happens when you buy a FTSE or S&P CFD?

They need to hedge at least the net position of their clients - or they are betting against their clients position. For example if Plus500 has many long term investors holding BTC in their account they EITHER need to buy BTC in the same amount to hedge themselves OR they are betting that BTC is dropping in value.

Or they post complete fake prices, and I'm sure they cannot do this.

[molecular]

Ah, I was wondering how they manage to offer shorts on BTC. Now I know!
(FYI: they can simply loan the customers BTC to the shorters. Smart move by them. Building up the BTC position is a one time thing.)

The real question is: what happens if everybody wants to short BTC on Plus500???

hm? as I understand it there are no BTC involved at all. No BTC are borrowed or sold on mtgox. It's just CFD (contract for difference), basically a betting site.

I don't think you truly understand how CFDs are synthesized. What do you think happens when you buy a FTSE or S&P CFD?

They need to hedge at least the net position of their clients - or they are betting against their clients position. For example if Plus500 has many long term investors holding BTC in their account they EITHER need to buy BTC in the same amount to hedge themselves OR they are betting that BTC is dropping in value.

Or they post complete fake prices, and I'm sure they cannot do this.

I admit lack of knowledge in this area. That's why I had been asking. After reading a book called "reminiscences of a stock operator" and the descriptions of "bucket shops" therein, I got the impression these shops would not hedge at all but simply take the opposite side of their customers bets. If so, they indeed "work like satoshi dice", who also take the opposite side of their customers bets and still make money in the long run off of fees (in bucket shop case this is the spread an other fees).

I doubt they post fake prices... too easy to verify (they say it's based on mtGox market), but I also doubt they hedge on gox for some reason.

In the case they do hedge, they better have some BTC ready to sell in case cumulative position of customers is short, right?

[monsterer]

Just for anyone who doesn't know - 'trading bitcoin' on this broker is no different than trading any other forex symbol. You'll never own the bitcoin you buy and sell and it will be impossible to withdraw it.

You'll only ever be trading on a simulated market - the data-feed is from MtGox (the real marketplace) but your orders will likely never arrive there, the broker will chose which orders to submit and which orders to trade 'in-house' as a market-maker.

You might as well just sign up with a reputable, well known forex broker and trade the forex symbol of your choosing.

Cheers, Paul.

[01BTC10]

I've been searching for another FOREX broker offering Bitcoin market trading but didn't find any.

[Taxidermista]

Here is another broker:
http://www.igindex.co.uk/spread-betting/bitcoin-binary-bets.html

Bitcoin in binaries! I think that's a first.

[capoeira]

why does this broker block access from Brazil?

[Seth Otterstad]

They block access from a whole bunch of "high risk" countries.

[capoeira]

They block access from a whole bunch of "high risk" countries.

what's the risk for them?

[Seth Otterstad]

Gaming the signup bonuses.

[spndr7]

Plus500 got listed on London stock exchange.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/companies-and-advisors/news-events/welcome/plus500.htm

[capoeira]

Plus500 got listed on London stock exchange.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/companies-and-advisors/news-events/welcome/plus500.htm

suckssss

I wanna use it, but i can't

[BtcBling]

Plus500 got listed on London stock exchange.

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/companies-and-advisors/news-events/welcome/plus500.htm

Yes, they completed the dream. F**K... Have to say very nice! Very Pro, but they will finally suck your money - trust me. And continue. Pro setup!

[01BTC10]

Yes, I hate Plus500. Very trustworthy but the software give them a huge edge. They freeze trading when volatility is high so you cant close your position... Got a margin call when the market bounced 10% in about 2 minutes and I couldn't do anything...

1broker is better but limit on BTC/USD is too low.

[capoeira]

http://www.avatrade.com/trading-info/range-of-markets/bitcoin

[capoeira]

http://www.avatrade.com/trading-info/range-of-markets/bitcoin

Nice. Now I wonder which one of those two (Plus500 and AvaTrade) will allow deposit and withdrawal of bitcoins. That would be major news.

I don't think any serious broker will ever allow..........not in the next, let's say, 5 years?

[mostar]

Look plus500 don't have limit order and API interface like most of the exchanges

[capoeira]

http://www.avatrade.com/trading-info/range-of-markets/bitcoin

Nice. Now I wonder which one of those two (Plus500 and AvaTrade) will allow deposit and withdrawal of bitcoins. That would be major news.

I don't think any serious broker will ever allow..........not in the next, let's say, 5 years?

btw, there are 2 brokers which accept BTC deposit

Forex Metal
Liteforex

[kakobrekla]

btw, there are 2 brokers which accept BTC deposit

Forex Metal
Liteforex

Those are mostly worthless, just like your posts, as they convert your BTC to fiat and you are trading with fiat account at the end of the day. You deliberately forgot to mention the best one of course.

[MarCoin]

Warning! CFD price can be easily manipulated by those brokers (but anyway, Gox does it too). Lot of broker's profits comes from price manipulation, not from spread or commissions

On the other hand, 1broker closed down BTCUSD because of users manipulating prices.

It is legit for the big players to manipulate it; it's not that legit (but still legal) to make wider spreads and kick out traders sooner. NEVER trade with larger spread-brokers, use commission-based brokers only

[capoeira]

Warning! CFD price can be easily manipulated by those brokers (but anyway, Gox does it too). Lot of broker's profits comes from price manipulation, not from spread or commissions

On the other hand, 1broker closed down BTCUSD because of users manipulating prices.

It is legit for the big players to manipulate it; it's not that legit (but still legal) to make wider spreads and kick out traders sooner. NEVER trade with larger spread-brokers, use commission-based brokers only

there are no comission based CFDs

[SebastianJu]

I know this is an old thread but plus500.com still offers bitcoin CFD's and the leverage seems to be 1:17: http://www.plus500.com/Instruments/BTCUSD

Is it still risky to trade there because of this websites behaviour? And what about the trading fees? I did not find a trading fee similar to bitfinex, like 0.2% on taker fees.

Better avoid that platform?

[capoeira]

http://www.avatrade.com/trading-info/range-of-markets/bitcoin

Nice. Now I wonder which one of those two (Plus500 and AvaTrade) will allow deposit and withdrawal of bitcoins. That would be major news.

I don't think any serious broker will ever allow..........not in the next, let's say, 5 years?

btw, there are 2 brokers which accept BTC deposit

Forex Metal
Liteforex

update: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716530.0

[Giambrone]

It's been a few years, but there is now an externally financed group action being organized in the UK. There is no upfront cost to participate, and we want to hear from any individual who lost money at Plus500. More information and sign-up details are available here: plus500.giambronelaw.com