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Author Topic: The Writing on the Wall  (Read 9115 times)
Desu
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June 20, 2011, 04:11:42 AM
 #61

So, you're saying because MT. Gox(Magic the gathering online exchange) failed Becuase of Security reasons, Bitcoin will die right along with it?
So, Tradehill means shit?!
The CIA interview debriefing earlier this week means shit?
The numerous amounts of coverages(Of both good and bad) does't mean shit?
God you really must be a troll.
I give it a couple weeks, month or so tops for this is history.

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June 20, 2011, 06:12:22 AM
 #62

I'm going to assume we're all idealists here. Or people who are speculating on the value of Bitcoin based on its merits as a self-contained system and not really looking at the bigger issues (a.k.a. idealists I don’t agree with (people who believe religiously in a Free Market as a context that need not look outside itself (yes, I’m nesting parenthetical statements))).
 
There seems to be a lot of ideas in this thread about a much broader adoption in the future if only we/they can get the Bitcoin ecosystem “safe” enough or “user friendly” enough and if we can only get the media to portray it fairly.  How broad are you talking about? Are you imagining it replacing the USD or the GBP etc..? Or even existing alongside them on an equal basis?  Why do you think the media is not portraying it in such a way that you consider fair? I would say that this is because the media basically voices the concerns of the state and the people who unquestioningly believe in the state (sadly, a majority).  Do you really think our respective governments are going to give up the power they get from controlling the currency? How about the multinational banking network?

I guess just lately I’ve been turned on to the power of Power. I think it’s easy to overlook how powerful power is when coming up with utopian alternatives and solutions that will coexist with the status quo.

To be adopted en masse we have to get the general public who are afraid to say the word “bomb” on their cell phones to adopt a method of exchange that basically, through its very existence, threatens the government and the primacy of the banking institutions. I’d say without some sort of global civil war being won by whatever can claim Anonymous as its nascent form, there will never be any wide scale adoption of bitcoin or anything similar to it. I’m not saying this will not happen; just that the stakes of the game are very, very high.

Bitcoin’s opened the floodgates of the currency front to the decentralization war we’re living through and (in this forum more than most) are the active participants in.  
There seems to be a binary belief system expressed in this thread of either Mass Adoption or Ultimate Failure. I think it’s definitely not that clear. Anyways, keep fighting the good fight. Keep speculating and buying MDMA. I will do neither but will amass Bitcoins for a time when using them becomes necessary. The future is a battleground of collective will.
  
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libertyzeal
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June 20, 2011, 06:33:14 AM
 #63


There are just too may people here who jumped on the bitcoin train because they thought they could make a buck, and now they are crying because the value of their holdings is not what they thought it would be.  As for me, I'm not worried about bitcoin at all, the technology is sound insofar as I've researched it, and IMO bitcoin only has 3 long term threats.

1) The internet dies.
2) Someone overpowers the block chain.
3) A better competing digital currency emerges.

I don't see any of those happening anytime soon, if these hiccups cause the rate of adoption to slow down then so what? It's not going to "kill" bitcoin, bitcoin is pretty much unstoppable, the concept is truly ingenious, and if someone comes up with something even more fantastic, the world will be better for it.
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June 20, 2011, 06:35:27 AM
 #64

I'm amazed at the vitriol at those who aren't bulls. Since when does it make someone a troll to be a bear on a currency?

This place does not exist solely for supporters of the currency. If you want to look like grown-ups, you should allow fair debate on it instead of trying to run anyone over who dares speak against bitcoins.

Honestly, the love affair for bitcoin in the face of all logic is starting to look ridiculous. Those proponents who come out of this best are the ones who admit that the "project" actually has a few flaws and weaknesses. It's the ones who invent an answer that suits their own position for every single probing question that look like idiots. It's as if you have your own FAQ in your head just to make you feel happier about your huge position.

This is typical layman's method of trading or investing and often fails. Why do you think rich people entrust others to trade for them? Because they know that it is only too human to get caught up with your emotions and fail to be logical.
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June 20, 2011, 06:38:30 AM
 #65


There are just too may people here who jumped on the bitcoin train because they thought they could make a buck, and now they are crying because the value of their holdings is not what they thought it would be.  As for me, I'm not worried about bitcoin at all, the technology is sound insofar as I've researched it, and IMO bitcoin only has 3 long term threats.

1) The internet dies.
2) Someone overpowers the block chain.
3) A better competing digital currency emerges.

I don't see any of those happening anytime soon, if these hiccups cause the rate of adoption to slow down then so what? It's not going to "kill" bitcoin, bitcoin is pretty much unstoppable, the concept is truly ingenious, and if someone comes up with something even more fantastic, the world will be better for it.

+1
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June 20, 2011, 06:47:19 AM
 #66

I'm amazed at the vitriol at those who aren't bulls. Since when does it make someone a troll to be a bear on a currency?

This place does not exist solely for supporters of the currency. If you want to look like grown-ups, you should allow fair debate on it instead of trying to run anyone over who dares speak against bitcoins.

Honestly, the love affair for bitcoin in the face of all logic is starting to look ridiculous. Those proponents who come out of this best are the ones who admit that the "project" actually has a few flaws and weaknesses. It's the ones who invent an answer that suits their own position for every single probing question that look like idiots. It's as if you have your own FAQ in your head just to make you feel happier about your huge position.

This is typical layman's method of trading or investing and often fails. Why do you think rich people entrust others to trade for them? Because they know that it is only too human to get caught up with your emotions and fail to be logical.

What "logic" does it fly in the face of? I think that there are a million different sets of axioms flying around here and people are using them to derive logics of all sorts which are all necessarily based on faith (including yours and mine)
oneforall
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June 20, 2011, 06:56:25 AM
 #67

I'm amazed at the vitriol at those who aren't bulls. Since when does it make someone a troll to be a bear on a currency?

This place does not exist solely for supporters of the currency. If you want to look like grown-ups, you should allow fair debate on it instead of trying to run anyone over who dares speak against bitcoins.

Honestly, the love affair for bitcoin in the face of all logic is starting to look ridiculous. Those proponents who come out of this best are the ones who admit that the "project" actually has a few flaws and weaknesses. It's the ones who invent an answer that suits their own position for every single probing question that look like idiots. It's as if you have your own FAQ in your head just to make you feel happier about your huge position.

This is typical layman's method of trading or investing and often fails. Why do you think rich people entrust others to trade for them? Because they know that it is only too human to get caught up with your emotions and fail to be logical.

It is not that people who speak out against bitcoin are instantly shunned here (which is what i too used to think). It is that often times people who speak out about bitcoin dont provide any proof or evidence backing what they claim. alot of their posts start out with things like "You dumbass motherfucker.." and then go on to merely claim that they think people are stupid or the system can't work.. but it is very very rare that these people have valid arguments. Since Synaptic started this thread I will point him out specifically, look at how many of his posts could have the words switched to support something like a sports team or a country, they admit right away that they hate the other side, then the rest of their argument is name calling.

It says a lot of a person when they spend their time attacking other people who are trying to accomplish things instead of spending their time accomplishing things. These are the same kinds of people who used to pick on the smart kids in school, not everyone grows out of this stage.
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June 20, 2011, 07:00:16 AM
 #68

It's written in blood this time I'm afraid guys...

As soon as the media gets a hold of this story, that's pretty much the end of BTC as anything but a backwater fringe item of TOR connoisseurs and trivial web-developers, hosts, and hippy products.

So, just like it was before the hacks, except with pretty much zero potential for any legitimacy at this point.

And legitimacy was really the only thing that mattered.

No more.

Was a fun couple of weeks guys.
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June 20, 2011, 07:03:45 AM
 #69

You haven't  been here for very long, have you?

This isn't the first time mtgox got attacked.  The attack in Oct 2010 was actually far more disruptive than this one because the result was that mtgox users could no longer deposit or withdraw USD for several weeks.

Didn't hurt Bitcoin as a project. People just continued trading on other exchanges and OTC. That is the whole point of Bitcoin, that it doesn't depend on a single website or company.

This is a test of Bitcoins resilience. If anything, this strengthens Bitcoin in the long term because it gives people confidence that their wealth cannot be compromised at the whim of a single organization.

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June 20, 2011, 07:04:56 AM
 #70

As long as I live bitcoin will live.

That MTGox was hacked was not that unexpected if you think about it. Hotmail was hacked, but is email dead?

I think rather they or someone else will come back with much better security there is just to much money in the future of bitcoins and it has been proven.




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bitcola
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June 20, 2011, 07:12:33 AM
 #71


What "logic" does it fly in the face of? I think that there are a million different sets of axioms flying around here and people are using them to derive logics of all sorts which are all necessarily based on faith (including yours and mine)

Insofar that none of the logic is based on anything quantitative, I agree with you. Even if we call it faith, this forum seems to be trouncing one faith in favour of another when there is no reason to do so.

People here have got to see the other side of the coin (no pun intended). If they just want to deny the obvious then that is more likely to lead to this currency's oblivion than anything else.

This forum is starting to sound like the Iraqi Information Minister. In the eyes of the world = laughable.
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June 20, 2011, 07:26:58 AM
 #72


What "logic" does it fly in the face of? I think that there are a million different sets of axioms flying around here and people are using them to derive logics of all sorts which are all necessarily based on faith (including yours and mine)

Insofar that none of the logic is based on anything quantitative, I agree with you. Even if we call it faith, this forum seems to be trouncing one faith in favour of another when there is no reason to do so.

People here have got to see the other side of the coin (no pun intended). If they just want to deny the obvious then that is more likely to lead to this currency's oblivion than anything else.

This forum is starting to sound like the Iraqi Information Minister. In the eyes of the world = laughable.

How far back does this faith go? did satoshi use faith or logic to create something that has allready impacted the entire world so greatly? Faith is what people use when logic looks like to much work for them, this is why you often see faith and hate so often on the same side of an argument.
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June 20, 2011, 07:27:25 AM
 #73


What "logic" does it fly in the face of? I think that there are a million different sets of axioms flying around here and people are using them to derive logics of all sorts which are all necessarily based on faith (including yours and mine)

Insofar that none of the logic is based on anything quantitative, I agree with you. Even if we call it faith, this forum seems to be trouncing one faith in favour of another when there is no reason to do so.

People here have got to see the other side of the coin (no pun intended). If they just want to deny the obvious then that is more likely to lead to this currency's oblivion than anything else.

This forum is starting to sound like the Iraqi Information Minister. In the eyes of the world = laughable.

I hate to be an asshole but you claim to level the playing field by saying none of the logic is based on anything quantitative but then say that people who are not agreeing with you are denying the obvious so, I guess my next question is what is "the obvious" you speak of and how does this escape/transcend the mutually agreed upon conclusion that none of the logic you (and I) are using is anything but faith based?
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June 20, 2011, 07:31:40 AM
 #74


What "logic" does it fly in the face of? I think that there are a million different sets of axioms flying around here and people are using them to derive logics of all sorts which are all necessarily based on faith (including yours and mine)

Insofar that none of the logic is based on anything quantitative, I agree with you. Even if we call it faith, this forum seems to be trouncing one faith in favour of another when there is no reason to do so.

People here have got to see the other side of the coin (no pun intended). If they just want to deny the obvious then that is more likely to lead to this currency's oblivion than anything else.

This forum is starting to sound like the Iraqi Information Minister. In the eyes of the world = laughable.

How far back does this faith go? did satoshi use faith or logic to create something that has allready impacted the entire world so greatly? Faith is what people use when logic looks like to much work for them, this is why you often see faith and hate so often on the same side of an argument.

No, faith is what defines the axioms and logic is how they derive a workable system from their axioms. My guess is Satoshi created the seed of his idea with faith (epiphany?) and used what seems to be an amazing gift of logic to flesh it out into a system that (my faith tells me) will basically blow up the authority structures defined by the previous faith based monetary system. How are faith and logic antitheses to one another? My view is that they are different dimensions of a powerful system (which Satoshi has created).
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June 20, 2011, 07:33:31 AM
 #75

Shinobi
Quote
Asking me why I'm here is a fair question, so I'll answer it.

I was drawn to Bitcoin as the idea of a "digital currency" was very interesting, and from a technical standpoint, the design and implementation of Bitcoins themselves is very impressive - perhaps there are technical faults with the network itself, but I wouldn't know as do not have the level of technical skill to fully appreciate what they've done.

The problems I have with this "game" is that there has not been any meaningful use of this technology, apart from attempting to anonymize illicit transactions. I believe that this largely stems from the failure of those creating the bitcoin "system" (although it may not have even been in their interest to do so) to provide a means of liquidity. Initial adoption through mining is quite an ingenious way to disseminate Bitcoins, but no other infrastructure was put into place to allow adoption of this currency. Add to that the forced deflation of the currency by a solid cap on the upper limit of Bitcoins, and Bitcoins became nothing more than a system where by growing media exposure allowed for unsuspecting later-adopters (like some of the poor saps here) to inject USD to buy coins and pass value downstream to the miners. Those who hold the most Bitcoins have created them with computing power, NOT by exchanging them for money. Where was the real capital behind all of this? Before you jump to the "but gold was the same" argument, know that gold had value among the world long before the Goldrush. It's not the same thing, by a mile. This is the fallacy.

Regardless, that wasn't even the biggest problem. The biggest problem was/is security (as I mentioned in a thread yesterday). I don't feel like repeating myself, so you can go read that.

Now, I stay on here, to hopefully convince some unsuspecting person not to piss away their life's saving or tuition (as someone here has apparently done) on this gambling.



I basically agree with Shinobi. Think the problem is that the developers didn't appreciate the importance of financial instruments to economies. For my proposal on how these could be introduced in a p2p cryptosystem, see here:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19130.0

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June 20, 2011, 07:35:01 AM
 #76

I guess one of my points is that both the lovers and the haters of Bitcoin are appealing to logic to support their positions. And both sides have proponents who reason impeccably... and those who reason horribly so it's best to look deeper and broader to examine what it is we're doing.
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June 20, 2011, 07:54:06 AM
 #77


What "logic" does it fly in the face of? I think that there are a million different sets of axioms flying around here and people are using them to derive logics of all sorts which are all necessarily based on faith (including yours and mine)

Insofar that none of the logic is based on anything quantitative, I agree with you. Even if we call it faith, this forum seems to be trouncing one faith in favour of another when there is no reason to do so.

People here have got to see the other side of the coin (no pun intended). If they just want to deny the obvious then that is more likely to lead to this currency's oblivion than anything else.

This forum is starting to sound like the Iraqi Information Minister. In the eyes of the world = laughable.

How far back does this faith go? did satoshi use faith or logic to create something that has allready impacted the entire world so greatly? Faith is what people use when logic looks like to much work for them, this is why you often see faith and hate so often on the same side of an argument.

No, faith is what defines the axioms and logic is how they derive a workable system from their axioms. My guess is Satoshi created the seed of his idea with faith (epiphany?) and used what seems to be an amazing gift of logic to flesh it out into a system that (my faith tells me) will basically blow up the authority structures defined by the previous faith based monetary system. How are faith and logic antitheses to one another? My view is that they are different dimensions of a powerful system (which Satoshi has created).

An axiom is something that is considered obvious, yet is unproven. I don't think that it is evident that at any point there was an aspect of his work that was unproven to him, if he could envision the entire project and then set about to create it, then faith was never involved any more then i have faith that when i combine the ingredients of a cake and stick it in an oven that it will become a cake. I think that by calling part of what he did faith it gives one an excuse to not be able to create something just as amazing oneself, as if he was 'given' something instead of him 'earning' it through sheer hard work. As if he got lucky that his faith was correct and someone else could work just as hard and merely not be lucky because they had 'faith' in the wrong thing. Faith is a roll of the dice, logic creates weighted dice that land the way the creator of the dice wishes. Bitcoin is to wonderful for me to be able to chock it up to luck or chance, it is a carefully planned piece of art work, a machine.

ADD:
epiphany does not imply faith, it is a surge of understanding.
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June 20, 2011, 08:18:11 AM
 #78

I guess one of my points is that both the lovers and the haters of Bitcoin are appealing to logic to support their positions. And both sides have proponents who reason impeccably... and those who reason horribly so it's best to look deeper and broader to examine what it is we're doing.

all any of us can do by surrounding ourselves in this is sharpen out minds.
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June 20, 2011, 08:20:12 AM
 #79


What "logic" does it fly in the face of? I think that there are a million different sets of axioms flying around here and people are using them to derive logics of all sorts which are all necessarily based on faith (including yours and mine)

Insofar that none of the logic is based on anything quantitative, I agree with you. Even if we call it faith, this forum seems to be trouncing one faith in favour of another when there is no reason to do so.

People here have got to see the other side of the coin (no pun intended). If they just want to deny the obvious then that is more likely to lead to this currency's oblivion than anything else.

This forum is starting to sound like the Iraqi Information Minister. In the eyes of the world = laughable.

How far back does this faith go? did satoshi use faith or logic to create something that has allready impacted the entire world so greatly? Faith is what people use when logic looks like to much work for them, this is why you often see faith and hate so often on the same side of an argument.

No, faith is what defines the axioms and logic is how they derive a workable system from their axioms. My guess is Satoshi created the seed of his idea with faith (epiphany?) and used what seems to be an amazing gift of logic to flesh it out into a system that (my faith tells me) will basically blow up the authority structures defined by the previous faith based monetary system. How are faith and logic antitheses to one another? My view is that they are different dimensions of a powerful system (which Satoshi has created).

An axiom is something that is considered obvious, yet is unproven. I don't think that it is evident that at any point there was an aspect of his work that was unproven to him, if he could envision the entire project and then set about to create it, then faith was never involved any more then i have faith that when i combine the ingredients of a cake and stick it in an oven that it will become a cake. I think that by calling part of what he did faith it gives one an excuse to not be able to create something just as amazing oneself, as if he was 'given' something instead of him 'earning' it through sheer hard work. As if he got lucky that his faith was correct and someone else could work just as hard and merely not be lucky because they had 'faith' in the wrong thing. Faith is a roll of the dice, logic creates weighted dice that land the way the creator of the dice wishes. Bitcoin is to wonderful for me to be able to chock it up to luck or chance, it is a carefully planned piece of art work, a machine.

An axiom is what you base your logic on. How far down does logic go? Is it turtles all the way down? Each step being preceded by a perfectly logical step before it, preceded by a perfectly logical step before it etc.

First, we're arguing about what went on inside another person's mind who we have never met before, which is necessarily an argument based on faith.

Second, the turtles all the way down argument: his logic had to have been based on something right? And that something couldn't really be based on logic or else that wouldn't be what the logic was based on but a step in the logical system he created.

Third, why is faith a weakness? He had an idea, however it came to him, he had that idea and then (I assume) he decided it was the right idea and an extremely powerful idea and he didn't doubt himself, or at least he didn't doubt himself to a point that kept him from seeing his idea through to its manifestation in the real world. That takes a huge amount of faith. That is not a crutch but a massively important virtue. Faith and Will are intertwined and without them all the logic in the world won't get you out of bed.

One of the biggest problems right now in our world I think is that people have an unquestioning and unanalyzed religious sense of Logic and Rationality and Science that makes us attribute all sorts of completely unreasonable things to them and to think that important dimensions like morality can be emergent traits of systems as long as these systems follow logical paths.
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June 20, 2011, 08:24:46 AM
 #80

I guess one of my points is that both the lovers and the haters of Bitcoin are appealing to logic to support their positions. And both sides have proponents who reason impeccably... and those who reason horribly so it's best to look deeper and broader to examine what it is we're doing.

all any of us can do by surrounding ourselves in this is sharpen out minds.

Absolutely, this is one of the more fascinating inventions I've ever seen.  Also maybe we can find in it something we believe in and put that in our arsenal of things we are actively attempting to will into existence to make the world better/more beautiful/more fair/more fitting with some preconceived notion of the way the world works/whatever...

It's funny, Bitcoin seems to be (or is definitely about to be) one side of what I assume will be an epic battle but in itself it's a huge battleground with so many sides laying claim to it for so many different reasons.
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