Boycott 0.8.2

[gweedo]

Instead of being here, maybe actually try and figure out the blockchain size problem correctly, without censorship.

The word censorship loses meaning if you erroneously apply it to everything you don't like.

People can create txoutputs which cost more in fees to spend than they provide in bitcoins. This results in an increase in the perpetual unprunable data and the working set size of full nodes, and people use these outputs to also force all bitcoin users to carry around non-bitcoin data.  Making the default behavior to not mine the creation of new outputs that can't be economically spent directly addresses the issue of outputs which are uneconomical to spend.

No censorship means I want to send 0.00000001 BTC to someone, if I am using the 0.8.2 Client then I can't. That is censorship. Or that by default your making it so miners are towards what you guys think is best. Instead of trying to figure out how to maybe make the blockchain smaller or use a different database, you just go "Easy fix is to block these transactions" Well that is just sad, that satoshi had faith in Gavin and he is letting all of us down. Now you claim he is making a market, but shouldn't the miners be doing that on there own, Gavin should have no hands on with that unless it is a bug fix. You all need to re-read the papers, cause your killing bitcoins AS WE KNOW IT.

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[gmaxwell]

No censorship means I want to send 0.00000001 BTC to someone,

As I mentioned, there are tons of transactions you already cannot easily make. For example, you currently can't easily send 1e-8 to someone without including a fee which is 50,000 times larger than the amount you are sending. You cannot easily make a payment which requires 2 keys out of 20 to redeem.  You cannot easily make a payment that adds 5 kilobytes of extra "message" data in a transaction. You cannot easily send a txout with value 0 zero to someone... etc. All of these things are non-standard transactions.  The protocol rules permit them, so miners can add them— but you have to find a miner willing to modify their software to do it.  Whats new here is an additional kind "you can't easily use a transaction which creates txouts which are small relative to the amount miners treat as zero", which can be freely overridden by miners changing that amount.

[gmaxwell]

One big problem is that the block chain is going to be filled with dust. Any time you send money, you run the risk of receiving change in an amount that is below the limit and therefore cannot be spent.

You're misunderstanding. This doesn't inhibit the _spending_ of small outputs, it inhibits the creating of them.

The wallet software already avoided creating them because they'd trigger fees higher than the amount being received as change.

You been drinking the Gavin juice too much. If I want to send a 0.00000001 BTC to someone, I can't under 0.8.2. If I want to do that in 0.8.1, the fees are high but that still means I CAN DO IT. Do you now see the censorship.

You can still do it, but instead of having to pay 50,000 times the amount in fees— you have to find a miner willing to do it or mine the block yourself (with p2pool if you want to pool).... this is no worse than all the other kinds non-standard transactions that I listed, which you happily ignored. Instead of paying an enormous amount in fees, you can instead just add that to the amount you are paying. It's silly to force you to give funds away from miners as a proxy for trying to get you to not create outputs that aren't worth spending.

[Justin00]

cough cough just get rid of satoshi dice cough cough

[bitcoiners]

They have to censor.

This.

[gmaxwell]

Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding. If I have a wallet with 3.000005 BTC, then I will not be able to send 3 BTC? What will the client do in this case? I suppose it could just add the amount to the transaction fee instead of returning it as change.

Yes, assuming you mean "with a single input of value 3.000005"* that is the current (since 0.3.19?) behavior.

*(if instead your wallet had, say two inputs of respective values 3 and .000005 it would just use the first exactly)

[gmaxwell]

Satoshi dice is a business, that uses the blockchain, while you don't agree they are doing nothing wrong, and they are being punished and censored because stupid devs can't fix figure out a correct way to handle the blockchain. They have to censor.

Huh? this has little to nothing to do with SD. AFAIR they no longer create _very_ small outputs at the level implicated here.

[jwzguy]

Huh? this has little to nothing to do with SD. AFAIR they no longer create very small outputs.

You, sir, have the patience of a saint.

[sycorex]

I dont get the problem... I dont see why you wanna send uBTC 54 or lower... Its 0.007$... thats ONE cent.. It only spams the blockchain... I dont get the problem...

[bitcoiners]

Satoshi dice is a business, that uses the blockchain, while you don't agree they are doing nothing wrong, and they are being punished and censored because stupid devs can't fix figure out a correct way to handle the blockchain. They have to censor.

Huh? this has little to nothing to do with SD. AFAIR they no longer create _very_ small outputs at the level implicated here.

This is about changing the fundamentals of bitcoin. Transactions should not be limited..... PERIOD.  This goes against everything bitcoin has said it stood for.

[sycorex]

There has always been a limit and that 0.00000001BTC.. So why not increase the limit while the prices go up? Those under one cent transactions only fill up the blockchain

[optimator]

Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding. If I have a wallet with 3.000005 BTC, then I will not be able to send 3 BTC? What will the client do in this case? I suppose it could just add the amount to the transaction fee instead of returning it as change.

Yes, assuming you mean "with a single input of value 3.000005"* that is the current (since 0.3.19?) behavior.

*(if instead your wallet had, say two inputs of respective values 3 and .000005 it would just use the first exactly)

To understand what gmaxwell said, I find this explanation of fees helpful.

[bitcoiners]

Its 0.007$... thats ONE cent..

Today.  What about tomorrow or the next.  The whole idea of bitcoin is we don't have someone telling us how we can or can't spend our coins.  This all changes when GAVIN decides so.  This is not decentralization.  This is a dictator telling us what we can and can't do with our money.  This goes against everything I was told bitcoin stood for.  This will collapse the entire notion of what bitcoin says it is as a whole if this happens.

[Blazr]

I think you guys are missing the point here.

The tx fee structure we currently use, plain sucks. It's been revised a couple of times as the BTC price rose over the years. These dust tx's cost more to spend than they are worth, they're essentially useless right now.

Once BTC price rises enough we will of course remove this patch and revise the tx fee rules to allow these transactions to be spent.

[bbulker]

Do not download the 0.8.2 client and do not mine at pools that use 0.8.2.


What the heck is the point in having 8 digits if you can't use them?

We might as well move to 4 digits. Fuck this.

[Blazr]

What the heck is the point in having 8 digits if you can't use them?

You can't use them right now. Try spending a 1satoshi input, you'll need to pay a 0.0005BTC tx fee to send it.

[wachtwoord]

I think you guys are missing the point here.

The tx fee structure we currently use, plain sucks. It's been revised a couple of times as the BTC price rose over the years. These dust tx's cost more to spend than they are worth, they're essentially useless right now.

Once BTC price rises enough we will of course remove this patch and revise the tx fee rules to allow these transactions to be spent.

This. And I think it is still configurable for miners (might require a recompile though).

[gmaxwell]

Once BTC price rises enough we will of course remove this patch and revise the tx fee rules to allow these transactions to be spent.

Don't even need to— it's set based on the fee value that gets treated as zero for priority purposes. So presumably miners will lower that amount (no recompile is required) if the value of Bitcoin increases, so even absent new versions with revised defaults we're not stuck with it entirely.

What the heck is the point in having 8 digits if you can't use them?
We might as well move to 4 digits. Fuck this.

The earlier versions of the software in the days of Satoshi only used two digits, in fact.

[bitcoiners]

What the heck is the point in having 8 digits if you can't use them?

You can't use them right now. Try spending a 1satoshi input, you'll need to pay a 0.0005BTC tx fee to send it.

So effin what.  I'm still free to do it.  Someone should not tell me how much I can or can't spend.  "Let's protect the stupid." Sorry that is the system we are already living in.  This is why I've moved to bitcoin/litecoin.  If bitcoin protocol adopts this then it becomes the very thing it's said it's against and is meaningless.

[Blazr]

So effin what.  I'm still free to do it.

And you still are, its no problem to remove the patch, but the actual purpose of the patch is to make SatoshiDice stop filling the blockchain with dust (I'm going to come right out and say it).