Bitcoin 0.8.2. What do you think?

[astutiumRob]

Good idea, I mean, if I send you 1 satoshi, with the fee structure we're using right now you cannot spend that 1 satoshi (0.0005BTC fee), so I loose 1 satoshi, you get nothing and the blockchain gets bloated. Its a no brainer, well at least until we have a proper fee structure in lace

Wrong in so many ways ...

If you send me 1 satoshi, I get 1 satoshi - end of story.

Nothing stops me spending it (whether I have to pay a fee, or carefully calculate how to spend it at the time of using an "old" bitcoin, or leave it for years to eventually age or whatever is my choice)
 - I still have 1 more satoshi than I started with.

Blockchain bloat - yes it's an issue, one that the current plan does nothing to actually addresss.

Fees are also an issue - one that requires a rethink on overall 'wallet management'.

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[mc_lovin]

It's going to affect CoinURL.com... we would no longer be able to pay out small satoshi payouts like we normally do.. but I suppose raising the minimum withdrawal is sort of an answer..  that is forced upon us..

[sturle]

It's going to affect CoinURL.com... we would no longer be able to pay out small satoshi payouts like we normally do.. but I suppose raising the minimum withdrawal is sort of an answer..  that is forced upon us..

Why have you been doing that in the first place?  Sending out payments which the receiver is unable to use without paying a fee much larger than the payment received, is just telling the users to "f**k off, we don't want you here, go away".

[Lethn]

I've been wrapping my head around the whole thing for awhile now and it just seems like one of those bans/limitations to a much larger problem ( If it is as much as a problem as people seem to think ) but to me it does seem as if some miners are desperate to get there way an awful lot when it comes to Bitcoin even if it means wrecking who whole currency just so they can profit more in paper money. If you remember we had a load of them ranting about the hard limits put on Bitcoin too and ASIC miners, screaming about the end of the Bitcoin.

[Searinox]

I think a dust-proof limit should be implemented, but should be dynamic in nature, drawing its value from a series of calculations that determine, from difficulty, transactions etc. how much 1BTC is worth and what amount is trivial. A hard limit is a very bad idea, considering bitcoin's climbing value and difficulty. A few years from now 5k satoshis might be worth a considerable sum, and releasing periodic updates to shift the limit is a bad practice. Even now I think 5k satoshis is a bit too much. I'd opt for 1k.

[gweedo]

drawing its value from a series of calculations that determine, from difficulty, transactions etc. how much 1BTC is worth

Clearly you have not idea what decentralized currency means, look it up some time, 1 BTC will always be worth 1 BTC, it isn't tied to any one currency. This bring into another issue, how do we tell people that to think of bitcoin as bitcoin, and not as storage for dollars or yen. I mean 1BTC == 1BTC regardless of the trading.

[Searinox]

drawing its value from a series of calculations that determine, from difficulty, transactions etc. how much 1BTC is worth

Clearly you have not idea what decentralized currency means, look it up some time, 1 BTC will always be worth 1 BTC, it isn't tied to any one currency. This bring into another issue, how do we tell people that to think of bitcoin as bitcoin, and not as storage for dollars or yen. I mean 1BTC == 1BTC regardless of the trading.

I said how much 1BTC is worth, not how much 1BTC is worth IN RELATION TO <insert currency here>. I think the client should be able to get an idea of how much 1BTC is worth to society by looking at the difficulty, amount mined so far, average amount transacted(example: today when BTC is young 0.01 transactions are fairly common, someday when that amount will be worth a small fortune, they'll be much more rare and people will be trading amounts like 0.00001BTC) and get an idea of how much is considered to lack meaningful value and then set that as a lower limit for transactions.

[gweedo]

drawing its value from a series of calculations that determine, from difficulty, transactions etc. how much 1BTC is worth

Clearly you have not idea what decentralized currency means, look it up some time, 1 BTC will always be worth 1 BTC, it isn't tied to any one currency. This bring into another issue, how do we tell people that to think of bitcoin as bitcoin, and not as storage for dollars or yen. I mean 1BTC == 1BTC regardless of the trading.

I said how much 1BTC is worth, not how much 1BTC is worth IN RELATION TO <insert currency here>. I think the client should be able to get an idea of how much 1BTC is worth to society by looking at the difficulty, amount mined so far, average amount transacted(example: today when BTC is young 0.01 transactions are faitly common, someday when that amount will be worth a small fortune, they'll be much more rare and people will be trading amounts like 0.00001BTC) and get an idea of how much is considered to lack meaningful value and then set that as a lower limit for transactions.

But that is cause the free market deems that as the value. 1BTC value can't be gotten from how many are mine or how much the difficulty is. That is your flaw in your thinking, you think that some meaning full value comes about cause of the difficultly or how many are out there, in reality it is the free markets that deem bitcoin is the ~$100.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I think a dust-proof limit should be implemented, but should be dynamic in nature, drawing its value from a series of calculations that determine, from difficulty, transactions etc. how much 1BTC is worth and what amount is trivial. A hard limit is a very bad idea, considering bitcoin's climbing value and difficulty. A few years from now 5k satoshis might be worth a considerable sum, and releasing periodic updates to shift the limit is a bad practice. Even now I think 5k satoshis is a bit too much. I'd opt for 1k.

Well good thing there is no hard limit.  The dust limit is a variable and the default value is 5430 satoshis.  You are free to install 0.8.2 and set it to 1000 satoshis if you like.

[Searinox]

drawing its value from a series of calculations that determine, from difficulty, transactions etc. how much 1BTC is worth

Clearly you have not idea what decentralized currency means, look it up some time, 1 BTC will always be worth 1 BTC, it isn't tied to any one currency. This bring into another issue, how do we tell people that to think of bitcoin as bitcoin, and not as storage for dollars or yen. I mean 1BTC == 1BTC regardless of the trading.

I said how much 1BTC is worth, not how much 1BTC is worth IN RELATION TO <insert currency here>. I think the client should be able to get an idea of how much 1BTC is worth to society by looking at the difficulty, amount mined so far, average amount transacted(example: today when BTC is young 0.01 transactions are faitly common, someday when that amount will be worth a small fortune, they'll be much more rare and people will be trading amounts like 0.00001BTC) and get an idea of how much is considered to lack meaningful value and then set that as a lower limit for transactions.

But that is cause the free market deems that as the value. 1BTC value can't be gotten from how many are mine or how much the difficulty is. That is your flaw in your thinking, you think that some meaning full value comes about cause of the difficultly or how many are out there, in reality it is the free markets that deem bitcoin is the ~$100.

I stopped short of giving an outright formula because I don't know how to translate this data into free market value. Clearly a 10x increase in difficulty won't be a 10x increase in value, but somebody's gotta figure it out. I support a dynamic transfer limit, and the only way BTC can figure out where to set that limit is from within its own statistics. Exactly how it would do this I do not know, but it stores a LOT of data, it can make many statistics out of this data, and interpreted in the right way, it might work.

You can for example, take a random country, of which you know nothing except for the fact that a say 80% of the transactions happening everywhere are worth around 100000 units of currency, 12% are 10000000 units, and 4% are 100000000000, and you can pretty much get an idea that that currency is most likely hyperinflated and the value of a single unit is likely nonimportant. You don't even have to know what the transactions are buying/selling.

[gweedo]

drawing its value from a series of calculations that determine, from difficulty, transactions etc. how much 1BTC is worth

Clearly you have not idea what decentralized currency means, look it up some time, 1 BTC will always be worth 1 BTC, it isn't tied to any one currency. This bring into another issue, how do we tell people that to think of bitcoin as bitcoin, and not as storage for dollars or yen. I mean 1BTC == 1BTC regardless of the trading.

I said how much 1BTC is worth, not how much 1BTC is worth IN RELATION TO <insert currency here>. I think the client should be able to get an idea of how much 1BTC is worth to society by looking at the difficulty, amount mined so far, average amount transacted(example: today when BTC is young 0.01 transactions are faitly common, someday when that amount will be worth a small fortune, they'll be much more rare and people will be trading amounts like 0.00001BTC) and get an idea of how much is considered to lack meaningful value and then set that as a lower limit for transactions.

But that is cause the free market deems that as the value. 1BTC value can't be gotten from how many are mine or how much the difficulty is. That is your flaw in your thinking, you think that some meaning full value comes about cause of the difficultly or how many are out there, in reality it is the free markets that deem bitcoin is the ~$100.

I stopped short of giving an outright formula because I don't know how to translate this data into free market value. Clearly a 10x increase in difficulty won't be a 10x increase in value, but somebody's gotta figure it out. I support a dynamic transfer limit, and the only way BTC can figure out where to set that limit is from within its own statistics. Exactly how it would do this I do not know, but it stores a LOT of data, it can make many statistics out of this data, and interpreted in the right way, it might work.

You can for example, take a random country, of which you know nothing except for the fact that a say 80% of the transactions happening everywhere are worth around 100000 units of currency, 12% are 10000000 units, and 4% are 100000000000, and you can pretty much get an idea that that currency is most likely hyperinflated and the value of a single unit is likely nonimportant. You don't even have to know what the transactions are buying/selling.

Statistics is a flawed math system, when it comes to these types of random variables. You can't accurately predict the free market, and include that information in the blockchain. Who even knows if those people using bitcoins even take into consideration that they are pinning it to another currency. Maybe they are saying 1BTC is worth on it's own, without another currency, 3 bags of rice. You can't predict what transactions are being pinned to a currency and not, and if you did pin bitcoin protocol to another currency, then you are saying that bitcoin is indeed a medium of transfer not a currency.

[bg002h]

All you need to do is change your config file.  It's not too difficult.  I'd suggest that you develop your own client but changing the config file of 8.2 would be simpler.  Your "problem" is solved.

If Bitcoin is going to become mainstream, then this is a bad idea. We need to understand the vast majority of new users will just accept the default configuration. It is unrealistic to expect anything else.

The average user won't be running BitcoinQt (or any full node, most likely). Even if I set my validating node to relay non-economic (non-Bitcoin economic) transactions, it won't matter if it never gets put in a block.

[SeanArce]

I don't get what the big fuss is bout. Why not just use an alt currency?

[sturle]

I don't get what the big fuss is bout. Why not just use an alt currency?

Some of the altcoins, like litecoin, have extreme fees on microtransactions.  Just another way to solve the problem.