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Author Topic: WARNING: *Bitcoin-qt* will soon block tiny transactions. Not bitcoin.  (Read 1694 times)
🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 (OP)
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May 06, 2013, 03:41:33 AM
 #1

The network protocol has not changed, you can always send someone whatever transaction you want, but it's up to miners if they want to include the transaction in a block. Miners running 0.8.2 can use command line options to change their dust limit.
bitcoiners
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May 06, 2013, 03:43:04 AM
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The network protocol has not changed, you can always send someone whatever transaction you want, but it's up to miners if they want to include the transaction in a block. Miners running 0.8.2 can use command line options to change their dust limit.

Um that's a change.. if the miners wont do it then nothing will happen.  There is no way around it... this will change bitcoin forever and not in a good way.
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May 06, 2013, 03:44:00 AM
 #3

The network protocol has not changed, you can always send someone whatever transaction you want, but it's up to miners if they want to include the transaction in a block. Miners running 0.8.2 can use command line options to change their dust limit.

Don't spread misinformation.

You have to connect directly to miners to get those transactions in a block because 0.8.2 nodes will not relay transactions with dust outputs at all.

Essentially speaking the network protocol has been changed.

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 (OP)
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May 06, 2013, 03:45:56 AM
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Don't spread misinformation.

You have to connect directly to miners to get those transactions in a block because 0.8.2 nodes will not relay transactions with dust outputs at all.

Essentially speaking the network protocol has been changed.
Network protocol is not bitcoin-qt/bitcoind.

Not every node will run 0.8.2.
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May 06, 2013, 03:46:54 AM
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And.... round and round we go again.

If I've said anything amusing and/or informative and you're feeling generous:
1GNJq39NYtf7cn2QFZZuP5vmC1mTs63rEW
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May 06, 2013, 03:50:53 AM
 #6

Um that's a change.. if the miners wont do it then nothing will happen.  There is no way around it... this will change bitcoin forever and not in a good way.

One version update != forever.

He can easily revert this as:
1. Bitcoin's value changes.
2. Someone writes a better solution to the DDoS problem.
3. Other reasons.
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May 06, 2013, 03:52:14 AM
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Essentially speaking the network protocol has been changed.
Thats absolutely untrue, and I'm irritated at you for promoting it. People in this thread we saying that miners couldn't have different policies and that we were stuck with this value in the futurebecause the protocol changed. People like me came in and said— no, it's not a protocol change, it's a configurable setting— and here you are saying it's a protocol change again.  It's not— not in the language we normally use to discuss Bitcoin. Miners are free to change settings here, policy is free to change in the future.

It's mining and relay node _policy_, not a protocol rule.   Please don't confuse matters by using vague language when you can instead describe exactly what it does.  This works exactly the same as the other "standard transaction" rules— zero value outputs, multisig with a dozen keys, outputs less than <0.01 without a fee (initially of 0.01 later reduced to 0.0005, and to be reduced to 0.0001 in 0.8.2), etc.  Transactions 'breaking' the IsStandard rule do get mined.
🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 (OP)
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May 06, 2013, 03:54:51 AM
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I think most of the criticism would disappear if the patch would be held off until there was a GUI for "choose your relay / mining policy".
🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 (OP)
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May 06, 2013, 03:57:49 AM
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I think this is a good step. The 7gig blockchain file is getting too large.

Bad news for satoshidice. People shouldn't be playing that idiot tax anyways. Bitcoin lottery is much better odds anyways, like http://www.satoshisploder.com .


-.-

It's not really bad news for S.DICE, they just gotta increase their lose notification by 430 satoshis.
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May 06, 2013, 04:10:23 AM
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I think this is a good step. The 7gig blockchain file is getting too large.

Bad news for satoshidice. People shouldn't be playing that idiot tax anyways. Bitcoin lottery is much better odds anyways, like http://www.satoshisploder.com .


-.-

It's not really bad news for S.DICE, they just gotta increase their lose notification by 430 satoshis.

lol s.dice helps build interest in bitcoin. s.dice and s.dice users are punished for doing so. Oh, the irony it burns.
Peter Todd
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May 06, 2013, 04:19:54 AM
 #11

Essentially speaking the network protocol has been changed.
Thats absolutely untrue, and I'm irritated at you for promoting it. People in this thread we saying that miners couldn't have different policies and that we were stuck with this value in the futurebecause the protocol changed. People like me came in and said— no, it's not a protocol change, it's a configurable setting— and here you are saying it's a protocol change again.  It's not— not in the language we normally use to discuss Bitcoin. Miners are free to change settings here, policy is free to change in the future.

It's mining and relay node _policy_, not a protocol rule.   Please don't confuse matters by using vague language when you can instead describe exactly what it does.  This works exactly the same as the other "standard transaction" rules— zero value outputs, multisig with a dozen keys, outputs less than <0.01 without a fee (initially of 0.01 later reduced to 0.0005, and to be reduced to 0.0001 in 0.8.2), etc.  Transactions 'breaking' the IsStandard rule do get mined.


Consider the user experience if a pure miner change is implemented:

You send a transaction. It reliably gets to the 10% of miners still implementing the rules you depend on, and it takes quite awhile to get mined. Annoying, but your transaction gets mined, and the person you sent it too sees it immediately.

On the other hand, with a relay-related rule, unless there happens to be a path from you to that miner of relay nodes willing to relay your transaction, absolutely nothing happens and you are left scratching your head wondering why.

Like it or not, changing relay rules is a much bigger change than chaning block inclusion rules, and it's much more effective at blocking transactions until a high number of nodes change their settings.


Sorry, but calling it a "network protocol rule" sounds pretty accurate to me. It's not a blockchain rule, it's not a block inclusion rule, it's something that decides if a transaction can propagate on the P2P network.

Having read jdillon's stuff, I'm pretty sympathetic to the idea that we should be accurate in what this is, blocking. Yeah, it leads to massive forum threads, but again, I agree with him that the fact we're seeing that just shows how little people understand where Bitcoin is going.

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