Casascius 2011 Error UNGRADED in Ebay $10,000.00

[inexile]

What do you think a MS65 graded coin would go for?

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[Michail1]

Its really risky selling on EBAY, alot possible bad and fucked up scenarios what buyer can done.

Only possible prevent: ship after 90 days

Don't kid yourself.  Paypal is 180 days.

And the limit of most TXes is $5k.  So, he has to do it in 3 transactions.

Let's be honest, no one will pay that much (Fiat).

[Fortify]

The $10,100 sale price equals 3.70BTC, this brings back a price for this coin that we haven't seen in a year or more! (I'd say 2015 but can't recall proof)

Whoever is selling the coin needs to be careful of a credit card chargeback.  Paypal will always back the buyer and the chargeback can happen up to 90 days after the sale.  By then positive feedback is often left.  I've been scammed a couple of times as a seller myself especially when the item goes abroad and there is little risk of the buyer being taken to court.

How would the seller get screwed if there was a credit card chargeback? The credit card company is reimbursing their cardholder (the buyer) but isn't guaranteed they can collect from the merchant (paypal and the seller). Now paypal may want to charge the seller for the chargeback but the seller can separate all means for paypal to do that. And there's no legal grounds to sue the seller if the seller did in fact deliver the coin as promised.

I've bought Casascius from eBay and have had no problems, I also wasn't spending 10 large (or a measly 3BTC)!

I'm not sure why everything is such a big "What If?" To you. PayPal and ebay have long been known to side with the person sending money and their terms are well defined by now. PayPal can't necessarily charge back, but they will put your account in negative and sell off the balance to debt collectors.

The bigger scam from years ago was people buying these coins, redeeming the stores bitcoin value and sending it back to the seller - that is the bigger risk from ebay.

[Michail1]

The bigger scam from years ago was people buying these coins, redeeming the stores bitcoin value and sending it back to the seller - that is the bigger risk from ebay.

Nothings changed.  That risk alone is enough, don't you think?

People claim they didn't get it even if the post office says it was delivered.
People claim the package was empty.
People claim the coin wasn't loaded
People claim all kinds of stuff.

And, if it was 'lost', then you have to prove the box contained a valuable item.  Show receipts, etc.  9 weeks later, your claim is denied.

eBay has no risk if the seller loses the money.

[HabBear]

I'm not sure why everything is such a big "What If?" To you.

What's "everything"?

PayPal and ebay have long been known to side with the person sending money and their terms are well defined by now. PayPal can't necessarily charge back, but they will put your account in negative and sell off the balance to debt collectors.

The bigger scam from years ago was people buying these coins, redeeming the stores bitcoin value and sending it back to the seller - that is the bigger risk from ebay.

My point is that I think potential sellers (a lot of people commenting here) are more concerned than they need to be about using eBay for sales. The seller gets paid first (there's no escrow). The buyer is taking all the risk. And if the buyer is going to try to f*ck over the seller in an honest sale there are several ways for the seller to protect them self.

First, the seller can use a payment receipt option that can be closed, therefore preventing a bank or paypal from reversing the transaction.

Second, the seller can create an account just to sell the coin so if eBay were to close the account there's no long-term impact to the seller's future presence on eBay. It's possible that interest and bids may be hurt a bit by the sale from a "newbie" account, but if the seller wants full protection it would be worth it.

Third, credit card company chargebacks are primarily an insurance-based protection service for their card holders. The credit card company's ability to recoup the costs of the chargeback are secondary. Ebay, PayPal, and the buyer's credit card company can't send a collection agency after the seller...there was no debt owed by the seller to any of these three entities. The buyer might be able to file a law suit, but then it becomes a scenario of the buyer's claim against the seller's claim.

That question I had is whether anyone here knows about this system differently than I do. Is the seller really at risk? I don't think so.

[gentlemand]

That question I had is whether anyone here knows about this system differently than I do. Is the seller really at risk? I don't think so.

Erm, have you ever actually sold anything on Ebay? Your confidence is reassuring. The reality is a somewhat different matter.

No one would buy a coin from anything other than an aged account. And I don't believe Ebay will have the slightest clue about the intricacies of following blockchain movements if someone empties it and sends it back. Your $10,000 coin just became worth $200 and there's nothing you can do.

[HabBear]

That question I had is whether anyone here knows about this system differently than I do. Is the seller really at risk? I don't think so.

Erm, have you ever actually sold anything on Ebay? Your confidence is reassuring. The reality is a somewhat different matter.

No one would buy a coin from anything other than an aged account. And I don't believe Ebay will have the slightest clue about the intricacies of following blockchain movements if someone empties it and sends it back. Your $10,000 coin just became worth $200 and there's nothing you can do.

So it sounds like you're explaining why it's riskier for a buyer to purchase a Casascius coin on eBay. I agree, the buyer is taking all the risk.

This thread is about how the premium is higher for these coins on eBay and the discussion (that I'm responding to) started with people saying they wouldn't feel comfortable selling Cas coins on eBay, regardless of the higher premium.

If you're talking about the buyer's activity, there's still no risk to the seller. If I sell you a coin for $10k, you need to pay me before I send it. You make that payment, i send you the coin, you empty it and send it back to me...great...I have payment for the coin i sold and an unloaded token that probably could go for $200+ on this forum!

I've sold a 20+ items on eBay. Enough to have positive trading history. But nothing worth more than $150.

[wheelz1200]

That question I had is whether anyone here knows about this system differently than I do. Is the seller really at risk? I don't think so.

Erm, have you ever actually sold anything on Ebay? Your confidence is reassuring. The reality is a somewhat different matter.

No one would buy a coin from anything other than an aged account. And I don't believe Ebay will have the slightest clue about the intricacies of following blockchain movements if someone empties it and sends it back. Your $10,000 coin just became worth $200 and there's nothing you can do.

So it sounds like you're explaining why it's riskier for a buyer to purchase a Casascius coin on eBay. I agree, the buyer is taking all the risk.

This thread is about how the premium is higher for these coins on eBay and the discussion (that I'm responding to) started with people saying they wouldn't feel comfortable selling Cas coins on eBay, regardless of the higher premium.

If you're talking about the buyer's activity, there's still no risk to the seller. If I sell you a coin for $10k, you need to pay me before I send it. You make that payment, i send you the coin, you empty it and send it back to me...great...I have payment for the coin i sold and an unloaded token that probably could go for $200+ on this forum!

I've sold a 20+ items on eBay. Enough to have positive trading history. But nothing worth more than $150.

You dont get it.  That payment (paypal) can side with the buyer.  Buyer claims you sent the product unloaded....how can you prove it wasnt?  You therefore owe back the money or if they are quick enough the payment wont even be cleared before you are even beat.  Its has happened in the past and will happen in the future.  Risk/reward, but you clearly arent understanding which is fine.

Edit: and if you reply with you will wait until the "grace period" is over before shipment, i dont think you will find too many buyers to pay you and wait more than 180 days to recieve their coin

[dazedfool]

nonsense

You dont get it.  That payment (paypal) can side with the buyer.  Buyer claims you sent the product unloaded....how can you prove it wasnt?  You therefore owe back the money or if they are quick enough the payment wont even be cleared before you are even beat.  Its has happened in the past and will happen in the future.  Risk/reward, but you clearly arent understanding which is fine.

Edit: and if you reply with you will wait until the "grace period" is over before shipment, i dont think you will find too many buyers to pay you and wait more than 180 days to recieve their coin

Yup this is correct. 30 day grace period would almost guarantee a negative, 180 day is absurd. Note there are two completely different ways a buyer can screw over a seller:

1) CC chargeback. If a buyer claims fraud on a credit card charge, paypal will freeze both the buyer's and seller's accounts to "investigate." If the seller does not have sufficient funds to cover the claim, account will be locked/suspended. This "investigation" could last months. Paypal does have "seller insurance" to protect from such types of false allegations, but I have not heard many positive outcomes of this. Seller's paypal account is effectively frozen and the full sale price may be owed pending outcome.

2) Buyer submits ebay claim. Buyer could peel the coin and return it "not as described", claiming it was received that way. Ebay is known to side with buyers tho there will be an investigation. High value items ($5000 and up) do get actual assigned human investigators. I have been down this road. Possible ebay will side with the seller, but if not then seller has to refund the full amount or have their account suspended and submitted to collections. Sending with signature delivery may protect against a "not delivered" claim, but seller is probably shit-out-of-luck otherwise.

That said, most people on ebay aren't going to try and burn your house down... but there's always the risk of running into that one guy who just wants to set the world on fire

[HabBear]

You dont get it.  That payment (paypal) can side with the buyer.  Buyer claims you sent the product unloaded....how can you prove it wasnt?  You therefore owe back the money or if they are quick enough the payment wont even be cleared before you are even beat.  Its has happened in the past and will happen in the future.  Risk/reward, but you clearly arent understanding which is fine.

Edit: and if you reply with you will wait until the "grace period" is over before shipment, i dont think you will find too many buyers to pay you and wait more than 180 days to recieve their coin

Hi Wheelz, I'm not arguing here. I still think a few here are still missing my point.

I've bought Cas coins off eBay. The coin was not sent until my payment was received by the seller, this means it cleared paypal or the credit card company. And the seller had full control of the paid funds when they sent the purchased coin to the me. If the seller was worried about a scam they can also time stamp screenshot two separate, independent sources that show the coin was funded at the time of sale and the integrity of the hologram at the time of shipment.

What can paypal or eBay due to require the seller repay the money that's they've already received from the buyer? Ebay/Paypal can block the seller's account. Anything worse than that? I don't think so.

If a seller of a Casacius coin can get a few thousand dollars more by selling on eBay that seller shouldn't let the potential of scam by the buyer deter them. The worse that can happen to the seller is getting a negative review or a blocked ebay/paypal account. No one here has offered knowledge of any more serious consequence and "it's happened in the past" doesn't actually explain what happened in the past or (more importantly) what the consequence was.

I just did some searching and the only thing I found on Paypal's website that might provide risk to the seller is their right to withhold an initial payment for 21 days (https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/article/why-is-my-payment-being-held-for-21-days-faq3236). Two (of a few) reasons for withholding payment are if the account is new or if the payment differs from your account trend (which would likely be the case with a Cas coin.)

If a seller chooses not to accept PayPal and requires payment receipt before sending the coin I believe they can eliminate all risk of having to refund someone money due to a scam. Buyer's benefit more from paying with a credit card, they get better purchase protection and probably some points or something.

There's nothing I found at PayPal's site that indicates they can force a refund request. I'm surprised so many in this group would feel required to give a refund when they know they're being scammed by a buyer!

[owlcatz]

You dont get it.  That payment (paypal) can side with the buyer.  Buyer claims you sent the product unloaded....how can you prove it wasnt?  You therefore owe back the money or if they are quick enough the payment wont even be cleared before you are even beat.  Its has happened in the past and will happen in the future.  Risk/reward, but you clearly arent understanding which is fine.

Edit: and if you reply with you will wait until the "grace period" is over before shipment, i dont think you will find too many buyers to pay you and wait more than 180 days to recieve their coin

more nonsense

Dude, you seriously have no comprehension of what you are talking about - Just reading all this is really making me feel dumber -  I do hope someone with more time than I comes back to re-school you on this... AGAIN.... 

[dazedfool]

You dont get it.  That payment (paypal) can side with the buyer.  Buyer claims you sent the product unloaded....how can you prove it wasnt?  You therefore owe back the money or if they are quick enough the payment wont even be cleared before you are even beat.  Its has happened in the past and will happen in the future.  Risk/reward, but you clearly arent understanding which is fine.

Edit: and if you reply with you will wait until the "grace period" is over before shipment, i dont think you will find too many buyers to pay you and wait more than 180 days to recieve their coin

more nonsense

Dude, you seriously have no comprehension of what you are talking about - Just reading all this is really making me feel dumber -  I do hope someone with more time than I comes back to re-school you on this... AGAIN....  

Not worth your time, just endless spam and nonsense. Do what I did and click "Ignore"

[wheelz1200]

Hey habbear let me know when you are selling some cas coins on ebay 

[owlcatz]

Hey habbear let me know when you are selling some cas coins on ebay 

 oh wow, good laugh right there, thank you sir!

Anyhow, dazed is right, this kid is now on ignore... 

[HabBear]

Hey habbear let me know when you are selling some cas coins on ebay 

This is hilarious! You'll get first opportunity to "buy it now!"

To Owl and the Fool, thanks for the ignore. I'm only interested in having adult discussions...not getting trolled by kids on summer break. My posts weren't directed or responses to either of you. If you don't like what's being said, save the rest of us and don't respond.

[dazedfool]

[Fortify]

Hey habbear let me know when you are selling some cas coins on ebay  

This is hilarious! You'll get first opportunity to "buy it now!"

To Owl and the Fool, thanks for the ignore. I'm only interested in having adult discussions...not getting trolled by kids on summer break. My posts weren't directed or responses to either of you. If you don't like what's being said, save the rest of us and don't respond.

An adult conversation, as you put it, would involve you actually taking on what experienced users here have to say - instead of continuing this route of blind ignorance. You are arguing, regardless of your denial. If you have not sold anything worth more than $150 on ebay then you really have no clue. I won't "troll" you anymore, ignore it is.

[krogothmanhattan]

I have been on ebay for the past 16 years mostly as a buyer not a seller.  The few times I have sold I never had any problems especially when I post they have to have a positive feedback of at least 100 to bid. The highest item I ever sold was a store gift card of $600 to be used only at ikea when I bought a new kitchen. The buyer paid and no problems. The only one time I had an issue was when I was stupid enough to sent an autographed album to the UK without payment first and then the guy would not pay. The only way I got my item back was when I threatened to stop by his house and beat the living daylight out of him.
              
                     So yes you will find the assholes, but there are plenty of good people there too. I met a few people there that also trade here and I have nothing but praise. But when it comes to bitcoins that is different as you guys pointed out they can redeem your coin and to prove it and have to go thru the legal hassle is another story.

[wafdawg]

The seller is taking the biggest risk if you ask me.  I've sold on eBay for years.  eBay will side with the buyer no matter what even if you are a power seller and have 100% positive feedback.  And yes I'm back! Shout out to all the fellas i traded with a few years back.  Wish i kept the two of these that i had in MS67 before ANACs diluted the grading.