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Author Topic: My Visit To Butterfly Labs Today!  (Read 7931 times)
LostDutchman (OP)
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May 07, 2013, 10:15:20 PM
 #1



Please bear in mind that this report of my visit to Butterfly Labs is intended only to provide you with the information I gleaned from my visit there and not to be provacative in any way or to influence any decisions that you might make for yourselves regarding BFL.

I visited Butterfly Labs today at around 11:30 am.  Entering the building I went through the main door to  the BFL door to find it being unlocked by a very nice very tall lady who asked me if I had an appointment.

I told her that I did not but was probably expected.  She asked me my name and I replied "MY BFL FORUM NAME".  I was immediately ushered inside the fortress that is BFL and asked to wait in the lobby, which is really only a couple of chairs at the end of the hallway leading to the "back room" itself.

After waiting only a few moments a fellow came from the back who introduced himself as Dave.

I introduced myself by both my forum user name and my real name.

Dave told me that he had a few minutes but that soon everyone had to be in a meeting.

I told him that I had come for any updates and any any news that he would liked passed along.

He told me that Josh had posted an update on the BFL forum and that was the only news there was.

Hoping to get a little more info, I told him I hadn't read it, which of course I had but got nothing additional.

I asked him if he had any specific shipping date, to which he replied that Jalapenos were being shipped now.  When asked about shipping of other devices, he would not give me any sort of idea at all, telling me that they will ship when they ship.

He then said that BFL was more open than anyone because Avalon will not even reply to emails or phone calls.

Pressing him a bit further, I told him that the natives were restless and many preparing to jump ship.

I found his reply a bit startling and more than disconcerting.

Dave was very firm in his statement that "We can't worry about that.  We just have to keep doing what we are doing and move forward."

I then asked yet again if he could give me any idea of expected shipping times on other products, to which I received the same admonition: "We will ship when we ship!"

I asked him if Minirigs were going to be put back into production.  He told me that there was an update on Minirigs and that they would be put back into production when the redesign was completed.

I again asked Dave if he would provide me any shipping information of any kind to which he replied, "What if I give you a shipping date anad we can't meet it?  Then we have more problems."

By this time it had become clear to me that I was going to obtain no specific information of any kind so I thanked him for meeting with me but before leaving I turned and asked him if he had anything he wanted to add for me to tell the folks.

He said "No, the updates say it all."

I left the building and took a couple of pics of the front door while leaning on the top of my car.

One interesting thing Dave did during our conversation was to play with one of those stainless steel folding knives, which many people would have considered to be a threatening gesture but I recognized the action as a nervous tic and in no way felt threatened.  I doubt he realized he was doing it.

So........................................................

What did I learn?

Well, a couple of things.  Shipping of anything but Jalapenos isn't going to happen any time soon and that the shipping time of other products is not known and that BFL will not even speculate on it.

In reflection on the meeting it occurs to me that Dave's replies to me although friendly sort of were monotonic and almost stilted and that his face was very nearly rigid and frozen as though he really wasn't moving a muscle.  During our meeting he stood stock still; his only real movement was playing with his little knife.

Now...........................................

Here is the part in which I editorialize:

I was dismayed at what I perceived to be "customer care".  It was as though the unspoken statement was "We've got your money, suck it up and wait for shipping and we'll ship when we ship!"

In short, I was pretty effectively stonewalled and I think BFL missed a wonderful opportunity to significantly improve its realtionship with current and potential customers.  A good report from me could have helped them a lot but I don't think this report is going to help them at all.

I have endeavored to be as "fair and balanced" in this report as I can be.

I cannot and will not tell any of you what to do in connection with your relationship with BFL but I will tell you that my two associates with whom I am partnered are giving very serious consideration to the status of their orders.

I was left with the distinct impression that there will be no shipping dates given because there is nothing to ship and BFL itself has no real idea when there will be.

As for myself, on the basis of today's interview, I will not be ordering from BFL.






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May 07, 2013, 10:28:54 PM
 #2

This is not going to satisfy anyone. Thanks for your effort though!
LostDutchman (OP)
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May 07, 2013, 10:32:57 PM
 #3

This is not going to satisfy anyone. Thanks for your effort though!

Hey, I got what I could get, it's just that there is nothing to get!

Sad

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May 07, 2013, 11:09:19 PM
 #4



I told her that I did not but was probably expected.  She asked me my name and I replied "MY BFL FORUM NAME".  I was immediately ushered inside the fortress that is BFL and asked to wait in the lobby, which is really only a couple of chairs at the end of the hallway leading to the "back room" itself.


She probably thought you said "Lord Dutchmen"  Grin
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May 07, 2013, 11:23:01 PM
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I told her that I did not but was probably expected.  She asked me my name and I replied "MY BFL FORUM NAME".  I was immediately ushered inside the fortress that is BFL and asked to wait in the lobby, which is really only a couple of chairs at the end of the hallway leading to the "back room" itself.


She probably thought you said "Lord Dutchmen"  Grin

Could be!

LOL!

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May 07, 2013, 11:44:49 PM
 #6

BFL = Big Frickin' Lies.

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May 07, 2013, 11:51:42 PM
 #7


Could be!

LOL!

Haha, Well they are just making themselves look like a big scam.

They didn't have done any shipping yet, but they are still accepting new preorders. Great

They knew they won't be able to ship products on time that's why they are accepting payments by Bitcoins
and paypal (You can chargeback guys) instead of creditcard. (It is against VISA and MasterCard's regulations for a merchant to bill their cards prior to shipping. *The Fair Credit Billing Act* )

You guys should ask for refund.
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May 08, 2013, 12:00:39 AM
 #8

It makes sense to say that. He basically said the right thing considering the delays. The problem is not what he said, the problem is that they're very late now and that they cannot guarantee a time frame now.

He was fair. But the reality of things right now is that it doesn't make financial sense to buy BFL because of the massive cost of opportunity it may have.

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LostDutchman (OP)
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May 08, 2013, 12:01:00 AM
 #9


Could be!

LOL!

Haha, Well they are just making themselves look like a big scam.

They didn't have done any shipping yet, but they are still accepting new preorders. Great

They knew they won't be able to ship products on time that's why they are accepting payments by Bitcoins
and paypal (You can chargeback guys) instead of creditcard. (It is against VISA and MasterCard's regulations for a merchant to bill their cards prior to shipping. *The Fair Credit Billing Act* )

You guys should ask for refund.

You are 100% correct about billing prior to shipping.

Even if paid through Paypal via a credit card the CC could be used for a chargeback.


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May 08, 2013, 12:06:55 AM
 #10

I like the butterfly knife part. he should have been rolling a cassicus coin back and forth across his knuckles and chewing on a toothpick too though.

I'm pretty sure these guys are legit. They are more or less a start-up (where ASIC are concerned) so, ofc, there are snags and unforeseen delays. That's how start-ups work. Dude has many many real problems to deal with and thousands of units to get out, as well as being grossly behind schedule, so I can't see any of the BFL team being too interested in wasting much effort on the "customer service" that you and your measly 1/3 of a jalapeno order demand.

these kind of "exposes" of BFL only give me more confidence in them. BFL says; "If you don't believe we are working as hard as we can to get you your order as fast as we can and within a reasonable estimation of our performance targets, then we dont need your money". If they were in on some sort of "long con" they would be kissing your ass and trying to get more cash out of you.

a caveat; they should have HUGE disclaimers all over their website and forums, like gigantic welcome pages full of "we are a technology in development, and although we strive to meet our projections as much as humanly possible, they are just that; projections, and we will not be held accountable for delays in delivery and/or reasonable discrepancies in projected hashrate and power consumption." because they seem to assume everybody is aware of this and has been all along. Plus it would get rid of annoying pests who are bent on wasting valuable time better spent of getting their product up, running, and out the door.

Note; I have zero to do with BFL, I just know what it is like to run a start-up and fall behind in orders due to unforeseen circumstances. All of the sudden everyone starts to think the worst, and all you can really offer is either their money back or a plea for their patience.

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May 08, 2013, 12:14:29 AM
 #11

Even if paid through Paypal via a credit card the CC could be used for a chargeback

Yeah but people should ask for refund first, if they don't give you can either call your cc company (if you paid via Creditcard which was processed by paypal) or just a simple chargeback if you paid via your paypal balance.

You can do chargeback even after 3 months, just write that you didn't received product yet, paypal ask them to provide shipping info and obviously they will fail to provide that, at end paypal will give you money back
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May 08, 2013, 12:19:36 AM
 #12

LostDutchman,

I don't see why you didn't phone ahead to try and get a proper appointment, and maybe even a brief tour of the facility. A casual discussion about technical matters first would have been a better way to go, and move onto shipping questions at the end.
Seems like a wasted opportunity to get an inside look.

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May 08, 2013, 12:26:29 AM
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LostDutchman,

I don't see why you didn't phone ahead to try and get a proper appointment, and maybe even a brief tour of the facility. A casual discussion about technical matters first would have been a better way to go, and move onto shipping questions at the end.
Seems like a wasted opportunity to get an inside look.


Any tour would have been well rehearsed and possibly staged I think and I pretty much got what I was looking for.

Answers in a backwards sort of way.

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May 08, 2013, 12:36:41 AM
 #14


I'm pretty sure these guys are legit. They are more or less a start-up (where ASIC are concerned) so, ofc, there are snags and unforeseen delays. That's how start-ups work. Dude has many many real problems to deal with and thousands of units to get out, as well as being grossly behind schedule, so I can't see any of the BFL team being too interested in wasting much effort on the "customer service" that you and your measly 1/3 of a jalapeno order demand.

They might be legit but they are not professional at all, I bet they didn't even had money for raw material, they have gotten some samples made by some other company, taken screenshots etc and started their website to get money from peoples and I also think they didn't even tested chips completely (Environmental stress testing ) that's why they are getting huge delays.



BFL says; "If you don't believe we are working as hard as we can to get you your order as fast as we can and within a reasonable estimation of our performance targets, then we dont need your money".

They are actually saying "You are a fool and you need to wait for several months while we are using your money and we will return it when we will get new fools"


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May 08, 2013, 12:41:07 AM
 #15

My little take on your meeting :

Quote
Pressing him a bit further, I told him that the natives were restless and many preparing to jump ship.
I found his reply a bit startling and more than disconcerting.
Dave was very firm in his statement that "We can't worry about that.  We just have to keep doing what we are doing and move forward."

What else can they do?
They are probably pushing suppliers and trying to get stuff sorted as soon as they can. But everything depends on everything. Even if they have the chips, they cannot do anything without the boards and vica versa. etc. etc.

Quote
I again asked Dave if he would provide me any shipping information of any kind to which he replied, "What if I give you a shipping date anad we can't meet it?  Then we have more problems."

Could it be that not all in BFL is happy about all the statements about shipping? I am not to into the whole BFL-drama, but it seems to me that Yosh have been touting a lot of overoptimistic/missleading dates and information. If I was in that same company, I might be a bit annoyed at all the drama that takes time away from development.

Quote
In reflection on the meeting it occurs to me that Dave's replies to me although friendly sort of were monotonic and almost stilted and that his face was very nearly rigid and frozen as though he really wasn't moving a muscle.  During our meeting he stood stock still; his only real movement was playing with his little knife.

I might look as this as him being in a defensive mode (not about the knife though  Tongue)
He's probably thinking something along the lines of:
"Right... Another dude who wants to know stuff that i cannot answer. The answers I might give are highly uncertain or business secrets, and saying anything will only raise hopes that I don't want to be raised until I have information that is pretty firm. After all we are all kinda stressed out here due to all the delays. Seems like everytime stuff are looking to get finished, something goes wrong.
Oh why don't we follow Mores Law instead of Murphys Law. Fuck - this whole project have really been more trouble that it's worth and if I had known it would be this hard to get the product ready and out the doors, I would have stayed away.
 -But now I kinda have to run the line, and hopefully if that <insert company/person> finally get the <insert product part/design> shit ready, we might be a success."

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May 08, 2013, 12:46:54 AM
 #16


I'm pretty sure these guys are legit. They are more or less a start-up (where ASIC are concerned) so, ofc, there are snags and unforeseen delays. That's how start-ups work. Dude has many many real problems to deal with and thousands of units to get out, as well as being grossly behind schedule, so I can't see any of the BFL team being too interested in wasting much effort on the "customer service" that you and your measly 1/3 of a jalapeno order demand.

They might be legit but they are not professional at all, I bet they didn't even had money for raw material, they have gotten some samples made by some other company, taken screenshots etc and started their website to get money from peoples and I also think they didn't even tested chips completely (Environmental stress testing ) that's why they are getting huge delays.



BFL says; "If you don't believe we are working as hard as we can to get you your order as fast as we can and within a reasonable estimation of our performance targets, then we dont need your money".

They are actually saying "You are a fool and you need to wait for several months while we are using your money and we will return it when we will get new fools"




Could well be.  I have not yet formed an opinion.

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May 08, 2013, 12:56:45 AM
 #17

Wow, awesome read and good information. I am considering myself to buy a nice rig, thanks for the help!
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May 08, 2013, 01:08:50 AM
 #18

This is not going to satisfy anyone. Thanks for your effort though!

Hey, I got what I could get, it's just that there is nothing to get!

Sad

Congratulations on doing some due diligence before investing. I'm sure you'll make an informed decision.

I think turning up basically unannounced was a great idea. You got to read an employee's unrehearsed body language about how things were going. You'd think if it was all going gangbusters, even if he couldn't show you anything you'd still see the excitement in the way the guy talked about the company and how things were looking for the future. But you got something else.

Interesting!

 
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May 08, 2013, 01:12:10 AM
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This is not going to satisfy anyone. Thanks for your effort though!

Hey, I got what I could get, it's just that there is nothing to get!

Sad

Congratulations on doing some due diligence before investing. I'm sure you'll make an informed decision.

I think turning up basically unannounced was a great idea. You got to read an employee's unrehearsed body language about how things were going. You'd think if it was all going gangbusters, even if he couldn't show you anything you'd still see the excitement in the way the guy talked about the company and how things were looking for the future. But you got something else.

Interesting!

Oh, man!

You have done a PERFECT job of putting into words!

I could not find them but you did it!

Precisely!

 Smiley

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May 08, 2013, 01:24:43 AM
 #20

 Shocked You did enter in!!!

Thanks for the report.
Hmmm...Their working place looks really good.(I always suspect they spend money on everything except manufacturing and shipping devices)
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