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finnthecelt
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June 20, 2011, 06:01:12 PM |
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It's a shame that very few people seem to know what "backing" means and what "intrinsic" value is.
I also think people hear about BTC and think that since it's a computer program there will be an infinite number of them; taking no time to understand the complexity of the situation. They are cool however, with the fact that the bank at any given time does not have all the deposits that their member's web screen's tell them they do should they all walk hand in hand down to the bank together. A mystery to be sure. |
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In order to get the maximum amount of activity points possible, you just need to post once per day on average. Skipping days is OK as long as you maintain the average.
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MoonShadow
Legendary
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Activity: 1708
Merit: 1007
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June 20, 2011, 06:11:11 PM |
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If the future looks anything like Schiff or Olov think that it could, then ...
Did you mean Dmitry Orlov and he's semi-classic "Closing the Collapse Gap"? Yes. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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libertyzeal
Newbie
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Activity: 42
Merit: 0
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June 21, 2011, 01:46:03 AM |
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It's a shame that very few people seem to know what "backing" means and what "intrinsic" value is.
I almost fell out of my chair when Peter said gold had intrinsic value because you could craft jewelry from gold or use it in electronics. While being true, you can do the same with seashells and silicon, those properties have nothing to do with why gold is a good medium of exchange.. I thought Peter was smarter than that. |
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finnthecelt
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June 21, 2011, 02:48:16 AM |
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It's a shame that very few people seem to know what "backing" means and what "intrinsic" value is.
I almost fell out of my chair when Peter said gold had intrinsic value because you could craft jewelry from gold or use it in electronics. While being true, you can do the same with seashells and silicon, those properties have nothing to do with why gold is a good medium of exchange.. I thought Peter was smarter than that. Well I'm sure he's trying to make sense of it too. He needs an education just like everyone else. Does he have the wisdom to feed his intellect? |
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MoonShadow
Legendary
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Activity: 1708
Merit: 1007
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June 21, 2011, 02:59:15 AM |
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It's a shame that very few people seem to know what "backing" means and what "intrinsic" value is.
I almost fell out of my chair when Peter said gold had intrinsic value because you could craft jewelry from gold or use it in electronics. While being true, you can do the same with seashells and silicon, those properties have nothing to do with why gold is a good medium of exchange.. I thought Peter was smarter than that. Well I'm sure he's trying to make sense of it too. He needs an education just like everyone else. Does he have the wisdom to feed his intellect? He was talking about an Austrian economist stating that gold had intrinsic value by reason of it's use value. Austrians don't normally talk in those terms, because use value doesn't equate to an intrinsic value. Value is always subjective, and an 'intrinsic' value would necessarily have to exist, if it did exist, by reason of a commodities natural characteristics. Gold's use value is not very closely related to it's elemental properties, but it's monetary value is related to it's elemental properties. If gold has an intrisic value, it's directly related to it's quality as an ideal money, not it's industrial or commercial uses. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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finnthecelt
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June 21, 2011, 03:13:47 AM |
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It's a shame that very few people seem to know what "backing" means and what "intrinsic" value is.
I almost fell out of my chair when Peter said gold had intrinsic value because you could craft jewelry from gold or use it in electronics. While being true, you can do the same with seashells and silicon, those properties have nothing to do with why gold is a good medium of exchange.. I thought Peter was smarter than that. Well I'm sure he's trying to make sense of it too. He needs an education just like everyone else. Does he have the wisdom to feed his intellect? He was talking about an Austrian economist stating that gold had intrinsic value by reason of it's use value. Austrians don't normally talk in those terms, because use value doesn't equate to an intrinsic value. Value is always subjective, and an 'intrinsic' value would necessarily have to exist, if it did exist, by reason of a commodities natural characteristics. Gold's use value is not very closely related to it's elemental properties, but it's monetary value is related to it's elemental properties. If gold has an intrisic value, it's directly related to it's quality as an ideal money, not it's industrial or commercial uses. Ok, so....BTC. Intrinsic value or use value? Or something else? Novelty value? It certainly has functional value does it not? |
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libertyzeal
Newbie
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Activity: 42
Merit: 0
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June 21, 2011, 03:19:21 AM |
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It's a shame that very few people seem to know what "backing" means and what "intrinsic" value is.
I almost fell out of my chair when Peter said gold had intrinsic value because you could craft jewelry from gold or use it in electronics. While being true, you can do the same with seashells and silicon, those properties have nothing to do with why gold is a good medium of exchange.. I thought Peter was smarter than that. Well I'm sure he's trying to make sense of it too. He needs an education just like everyone else. Does he have the wisdom to feed his intellect? He was talking about an Austrian economist stating that gold had intrinsic value by reason of it's use value. Austrians don't normally talk in those terms, because use value doesn't equate to an intrinsic value. Value is always subjective, and an 'intrinsic' value would necessarily have to exist, if it did exist, by reason of a commodities natural characteristics. Gold's use value is not very closely related to it's elemental properties, but it's monetary value is related to it's elemental properties. If gold has an intrisic value, it's directly related to it's quality as an ideal money, not it's industrial or commercial uses. You're quite right! The fact that gold has almost no industrial uses, is one of the properties that it make it a great medium of exchange, you want your unit of account to be in stable and in predictable supply. Silver on the other hand has many industrial uses, it's a key component in PV cells for solar panels for example, so it's a lot less stable than gold in terms of supply/demand. |
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Epinnoia
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June 21, 2011, 03:19:29 AM |
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Ok, so....BTC. Intrinsic value or use value? Or something else? Novelty value? It certainly has functional value does it not?
I'll say it again... As long as Western Union, MoneyGram, etc., charge those usurious fees, Bitcoins will have value. |
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Current-C
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June 21, 2011, 03:21:41 AM |
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While I have a lot of respect for what Peter says most o the time, he clearly has not done his homework here. I don't think he's just talking his gold and silver book as many have suggested -- it seemed to me that he really doesn't (yet) have a full grasp of the bitcoin concept. As I posted on the press hits thread though, no doubt there are a whole lot of knowledgeable, savvy (and possibly quite wealthy) investors doing research right now on bitcoins since hearing this interview today. I'm sure Peter will come around in the long run after he sees bitcoins from a few more angles.
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MoonShadow
Legendary
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Activity: 1708
Merit: 1007
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June 21, 2011, 03:26:16 AM |
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Ok, so....BTC. Intrinsic value or use value? Or something else? Novelty value? It certainly has functional value does it not?
BTC has no use value, outside of the context of a medium of exchange. BTC is both the currency and an effective, worldwide, transfer mechanism. Just like gold's intrinsic value is rooted in it's properties that make it an ideal money, BTC's intrinsic value rests in the properties imbued into it by powerful cryptology and rigid code practices. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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libertyzeal
Newbie
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Activity: 42
Merit: 0
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June 21, 2011, 03:36:11 AM |
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Ok, so....BTC. Intrinsic value or use value? Or something else? Novelty value? It certainly has functional value does it not?
BTC has no use value, outside of the context of a medium of exchange. BTC is both the currency and an effective, worldwide, transfer mechanism. Just like gold's intrinsic value is rooted in it's properties that make it an ideal money, BTC's intrinsic value rests in the properties imbued into it by powerful cryptology and rigid code practices. If you love gold and understand it, then you will love bitcoin for nearly the exact same reasons, as they share most of the same properties of a good medium of exchange. There are an amazing number of people (particularly on youtube) who love gold/silver and *hate* bitcoin, which shows a deep rift in their understanding. For selfish reasons, I'm in no great hurry to educate the masses, they will figure it out eventually, and in the meantime I'd like to accumulate a nice little horde for myself with as little competition as possible. |
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MoonShadow
Legendary
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Activity: 1708
Merit: 1007
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June 21, 2011, 03:38:08 AM |
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For selfish reasons, I'm in no great hurry to educate the masses, they will figure it out eventually, and in the meantime I'd like to accumulate a nice little horde for myself with as little competition as possible.
Amen to that. Keep the bad news coming. It'll keep the riff-raff out long enough for me to add more savings. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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tavi
Newbie
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Activity: 14
Merit: 0
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June 21, 2011, 03:57:40 AM |
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Ok, so....BTC. Intrinsic value or use value? Or something else? Novelty value? It certainly has functional value does it not?
BTC has no use value, outside of the context of a medium of exchange. BTC is both the currency and an effective, worldwide, transfer mechanism. Just like gold's intrinsic value is rooted in it's properties that make it an ideal money, BTC's intrinsic value rests in the properties imbued into it by powerful cryptology and rigid code practices. If you love gold and understand it, then you will love bitcoin for nearly the exact same reasons, as they share most of the same properties of a good medium of exchange. There are an amazing number of people (particularly on youtube) who love gold/silver and *hate* bitcoin, which shows a deep rift in their understanding. WTF is intrinsic value?! I hate it when Schiff is talking nonsense like that -- intrinsic value. Great analogy with seashells, libertyzeal. Yeah sure, gold silver & lead are solid investments in my book. Are those goldbugs way too old to understand P2P, I wonder? And bitcoin is way more attractive when it comes to capital controls. |
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marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
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Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348
Eadem mutata resurgo
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June 21, 2011, 04:08:08 AM |
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Donald Norman from bitcoin consultancy sounds like he is fast getting out of his depth. He mentions in one breath about the genesis block referring to "bailouts for banks" and in same interview unashamedly is asking for UK regulator assistance to run his Britcoin operation ... one conflicted individual.
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hugolp
Legendary
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Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
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June 21, 2011, 04:24:12 AM |
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Donald Norman from bitcoin consultancy sounds like he is fast getting out of his depth. He mentions in one breath about the genesis block referring to "bailouts for banks" and in same interview unashamedly is asking for UK regulator assistance to run his Britcoin operation ... one conflicted individual.
I am a market anarchist but I think its good that they want regulation of the exchanges. How can that be? Some people will distrust bitcoins, and some others will try to attack it. By seeking to be regulated they are shielding themselves from this types of attacks. Also, its not like the governments were going to let them be. Governments were going to go for them anyways at some points, so you must as well do it on your own. And remember that Bitcoin is imposible to regulate, they are just regulating the exchanges. Btw, I am still shocked that Peter used the concept of intrinsic value when he knows very well instrinsic value does not exist. |
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MoonShadow
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Activity: 1708
Merit: 1007
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June 21, 2011, 04:27:24 AM |
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Donald Norman from bitcoin consultancy sounds like he is fast getting out of his depth. He mentions in one breath about the genesis block referring to "bailouts for banks" and in same interview unashamedly is asking for UK regulator assistance to run his Britcoin operation ... one conflicted individual.
I am a market anarchist but I think its good that they want regulation of the exchanges. How can that be? Some people will distrust bitcoins, and some others will try to attack it. By seeking to be regulated they are shielding themselves from this types of attacks. Also, its not like the governments were going to let them be. Governments were going to go for them anyways at some points, so you must as well do it on your own. Yeah, at least if it's his idea, he has some say in how it's done. |
"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."
- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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marcus_of_augustus
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2348
Eadem mutata resurgo
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June 21, 2011, 05:08:34 AM |
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Donald Norman from bitcoin consultancy sounds like he is fast getting out of his depth. He mentions in one breath about the genesis block referring to "bailouts for banks" and in same interview unashamedly is asking for UK regulator assistance to run his Britcoin operation ... one conflicted individual.
I am a market anarchist but I think its good that they want regulation of the exchanges. How can that be? Some people will distrust bitcoins, and some others will try to attack it. By seeking to be regulated they are shielding themselves from this types of attacks. Also, its not like the governments were going to let them be. Governments were going to go for them anyways at some points, so you must as well do it on your own. Yeah, at least if it's his idea, he has some say in how it's done. yeah, like telling them at what speed they should screw him over .... if he's lucky. Lie down with dogs and you get fleas. If he's not doing anything illegal why should the regulators get involved at all? Governments need to be reined in, not encouraged to expand ... has no one been paying attention recently? |
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hugolp
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Activity: 1148
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Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
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June 21, 2011, 05:30:29 AM |
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yeah, like telling them at what speed they should screw him over .... if he's lucky.
Lie down with dogs and you get fleas.
If he's not doing anything illegal why should the regulators get involved at all? Governments need to be reined in, not encouraged to expand ... has no one been paying attention recently? You are right, but we live in the world we live. I dont think there are other options. Governments are going to get into Bitcoin related companies whether we like it or not. Its not a choice, its just a matter of how and when, so you might as well look for the best "deal" (and yes, its going to be nasty and governments are not going to play "fair"). Lets be realistic: One exchange going heroic and figthing against the system is not going to acomplish anything. Probably its going to be contraproductive because it will give bad press to bitcoins. Let them regulate the exchange so people have a easy way to get into bitcoins and we can fight the system from within. |
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vector76
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June 21, 2011, 01:38:01 PM |
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"Intrinsic" value in this context does not mean intrinsic value in a philosophical sense. Rather, it means having value other than as a medium of exchange. IMO the industrial use for gold is rather weak compared to silver or oil or copper or rice, but even gold has SOME industrial value, while bitcoins do not.
As a medium of exchange, bitcoins do have value, but usefulness as a medium of exchange does not lead to long term stable prices. And perhaps not even short term stable prices. In the interview Donald Norman is completely correct in saying that bitcoins make a good medium of exchange but a poor store of value.
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finnthecelt
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June 21, 2011, 02:28:45 PM |
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Ok, so....BTC. Intrinsic value or use value? Or something else? Novelty value? It certainly has functional value does it not?
BTC has no use value, outside of the context of a medium of exchange. BTC is both the currency and an effective, worldwide, transfer mechanism. Just like gold's intrinsic value is rooted in it's properties that make it an ideal money, BTC's intrinsic value rests in the properties imbued into it by powerful cryptology and rigid code practices. If you love gold and understand it, then you will love bitcoin for nearly the exact same reasons, as they share most of the same properties of a good medium of exchange. There are an amazing number of people (particularly on youtube) who love gold/silver and *hate* bitcoin, which shows a deep rift in their understanding. Are those goldbugs way too old to understand P2P, I wonder? Unfortunately the answer to this is yes, mostly. There are open minded people in the silver/gold community such as myself (i'm not that old) but after several years of bringing them (my people who previously were not even interested in the metals) up to speed on currencies and this being new to me I just don't have the energy to start my crusade all over again. At least not charging into battle. I'll just leave little notes laying on the ground and if someone should happen upon them, AND act upon them, good for you. |
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