Money as Debt

[nanaimogold]

I also think a promotor could better be a someone who is not from a minority group fom a marketing point of view and it should also be someone who picks the communication channels somewhat better. 
 

It doesn't matter if someone is better everyone who wants to will promote. This isn't an election. Everyone is from some minority group anyway. I'm probably in 6.

I think Bruce is doing great work.

Wow.   See what happens when you start a thread and then get busy and don't check back in until a month later....   

No one elected me promoter.    I'm just doing what I feel compelled to do.    If you don't like it:

(1)   Ignore me.
(2)   Make yourself a promoter.

It's true that everyone is in at least a few minorities.    And if that's so important to you, then become THE promoter yourself.    I'd be willing to bet that nanaimogold is in more minorities than I am.    But who the h*ll cares.    I really thought this was 2011.    Get with it, and get over it.   I'm gay.    If you don't like it, don't marry me.

You clearly have a comprehension problem.

The goal is to disassociate our commerce from the Federal Reserve. You do all you can to make Bitcoin an extension of the US dollar. Talk about unclear on the concept.

You publicize a business that operates in only one country as "global" while on the same page describe a truly global service as "local".

I criticize your lack of public decency and your airing of private issues in public and you fail to understand that too.

My observation has nothing to do with "minorities". It has nothing to do with what year this is nor who I chose to marry.

It's your lack of moral decency and inappropriate public airing of your private junk and the association with my work that troubles me.

Decent people keep their junk in the closet; they don't define themselves by their peccadillos nor do they parade their embarrassing abnormalities for all to see.

I imagine all the people who punched your name into Google and got goatse'd after hearing that lame interview you gave on radio.

You do not speak for me.

[Bruce Wagner]

You do not speak for me.

Ditto.   

[Stephen Gornick]

No one elected me promoter.

http://twitter.com/brucewagner/statuses/27802000846495744

[kiba]

No one elected me promoter.

http://twitter.com/brucewagner/statuses/27802000846495744

This statement doesn't prove that brucewagner considered himself, "elected."

[kiba]

Decent people keep their junk in the closet; they don't define themselves by their peccadillos nor do they parade their embarrassing abnormalities for all to see.

Stop cloaking your personal attack of Bruce Wagner in sexual euphemisms. It's disrespectful and embarrassing for community members to attack others' sexual orientation.

[Sultan]

I don't understand where the hostility is from. I listened to the appearance on the One Radio or whatever it's called, and I liked it. It made me download the client.

[Babylon]

I'm a bit more then just a socialist and I know bitcoin is a step towards getting away from government/corporation authority and control. After that it will help move into a classless society and possibly money will be abolished altogether.

Is it just me, or is there something not quite right with someone who is "more than a socialist" but yet wants to eliminate or reduce government?  Bitcoin is a pure capitalist system, and, honestly, the past N years of capitalism don't seemed to have worked out so great for society - witness A) the BP oil spill and countless other environmental disasters, B) the continuously widening gap between rich & poor right throughout all western (& other) society.  Are you sure, bober182, that you're not a closet anarchist?


I'm enjoying this thread - much of it has been discussed before (see https://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=376.0).  There is an important point which I think many people are missing.  As some of you have pointed out, bitcoins only have value if you spend them.  There is no point in hoarding 99% of all bitcoins.  However, if you become "The Bitcoin Bank" and lend at interest, then as "Money as Debt" says, you will continue accumulating more and more bitcoins.  As people pay you back, you'll naturally have to find a way to spend them, or loan them again.  BUT, when people can't pay you back, you get to repossess their physical property.  This is why interest can't really work.  Interest does nothing other than increase the wealth of the wealthy, at the expense of those in poverty.  And *that's* the clincher - bitcoins have value only insofar as they can help you obtain property.  But if you can get the property another way, well, then bitcoins just become a tool.

Now, if you can *inflate* your currency, or tax it, then maybe you can mitigate the accumulation, at least until the wealthy people become so powerful as to dictate tax & inflation policy to the policy-makers.

Anarchism has been a socialist movement longer than it has been a capitalist one.  There is no contradiction in being a socialist and also against government.

I think you may be conflating socialist and authoritarian, and the two are not the same.

[Babylon]

Ok...  I got a reply today.  

To refresh your memory, I sent the following email to the creator of the film, "Money As Debt II"...

To: Paul Grignon <pgrignon@island.net>

Hello!

We are discussing your film in the Bitcoin Forum  ( here
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1992.0 )

Are you already familiar with Bitcoin?!?!?

If not, please see  http://BitcoinMe.com for a quick introduction to
what it's all about.

Bitcoin is a FOSS (free open source software) project that is making
huge advances very quickly.   The Bitcoin economy is already over
US$1.3 Million in total value.

We already have a "bounty"  ( sort of a contest, to see who can come
up with the best animated video explaining Bitcoin to everyday
people... with the best video winning the prize pot... currently about
$2,520 ).   See http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=697.0;all

I think it would be wonderful if you were to create a film explaining
"What is a Bitcoin?"

Also, I've gotta ask...     Toward the end of "Money As Debt II", you
were describing a digital currency enabled through encryption
technology....   Were you already aware, at that time, that Bitcoin
existed... or was about to be invented?

Bruce Wagner
New York City
http://BitcoinMe.com
646-580-0022 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              646-580-0022      end_of_the_skype_highlighting

Today, I received his reply...

Hi Bruce

No I did not know about bitcoin when I made Money as Debt II

It sounds like you didn't watch to the end of the credits where I send you to digitalcoin.info

The idea came from the technology being developed at maidsafe.net.

The  inventors, having seen Money as Debt asked me for help explaining their technology. This is the animated movie I made for them (the 12 min. link)

 http://www.paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoonfireStudio/PAGES/PD/Perpetual_Data_homepageFlash.html

They also asked me for ideas how to use it as a completely liberated money system.

Money as Debt II ends by sending the viewer to digitalcoin.info   which is my answer to their question.

I didn't get paid for any of this by the way.  I am not working FOR them.


I was previously invited to enter this contest and declined.

Making it a contest is, from my viewpoint, highly disrespectful of the work it would take to do a good job.

But if someone does have the time to spare you may get what you want.

I am currently busy completing Money as Debt III, Evolution Beyond Money explaining my alternative economy concepts.

It will hopefully be as educationally useful and well-accepted as the first two movies.

By the way there are no "producers'.  Other than the narration I do everything.


Paul

First, I wanted to let Paul Grignon know that we meant no disrespect by calling it a "bounty" or a "contest".

We all just want to honor those who create great works.  We have a desire to scrape together whatever coins we can, to say "Thank You" to those who create such fantastic works.  In fact, I propose that we stop calling these things "a bounty" or "a contest".   We should call it  "an award".   We have created "a new award"... "an award with a prize attached".   Because that's what it really is.  We can also express that "we are seeking nominations" for the award.   That sounds so much more respectful of all the hard work - blood, sweat, and tears - that software developers, film animators, and any other types of content-creators produce... and contribute for the benefit of us all.  The small "prize" we offer is not a purchase price.  It's simply one token of our appreciation for their hard work.  It's a Thank You.

Next, I want everyone here to look at Paul's ideas.   They're very interesting.   Don't just skim over them.  Study them.  His concept of - what he calls "Digital Coin" - encompasses TWO TYPES of digital currency.  One Type, which he calls the "Perpetual Coin", represents "permanent value" (that one sounds like an exact match to Bitcoin - correct me if I'm wrong?).  The Other Type, which he calls a "Credit Coin", represents a form of a "value voucher" that anyone can issue themselves... and spend into circulation... in effect, giving themselves instant credit.  (For example, if I install Linux for people.  I can issue a "Bruce Wagner Consulting 20 BTC Credit Coin".  That coin would be worth 20 BTC worth of my services/products, as they are priced whenever it is redeemed.)  However, he proposes that the actual value of the Credit Coins I issue would vary... based on real-time trading of these Credit Coins on automated markets (think http://MtGox.com).  If demand for my services/products was low, the value (the relative value, as measured in how many "real" BTC people are willing to buy/sell them for) of the "Bruce Wagner Consulting 20 BTC Credit Coins" I issued would be lower.  If demand for my services/products was high, the value (again, the relative value, as measured in how many "real" BTC people are willing to buy/sell them for) of the "Bruce Wagner Consulting 20 BTC Credit Coins" I issued, would be higher.  However, in any case, that Credit Coin would ultimately always be redeemable by ME (the issuer) at 20 BTC WORTH of my services/products (at MY current "real" BTC prices).   He also proposes that these Credit Coins would have a premium value if used (spent at Bruce Wagner Consulting) within a certain timeline (not immediately), and also that they would have a decreasing value over time... ultimately expiring completely.  Thus, "forcing them" to ultimately be "spent" at Bruce Wagner Consulting, not hoarded.

Anyway...

You MUST WATCH this first.  Don't be deceived by the title.  You need to watch this 7 minute video first:   http://www.digitalcoin.info/The_Essence_of_Money.html

Second,  this video translates the concepts of the first video, into the dual coin "Digital Coin" concept.  You must watch this 8 minute video:  http://www.digitalcoin.info/Digital_Coin_Introduction.html

Finally, read this 4 page article... where Paul describes the concept in detail:   http://www.digitalcoin.info/Digital_Coin_in_Brief_07-17-09.pdf

You must see these videos, and read that article, before any of this will really make sense.

For example, NOW I understand what farmer_boy was saying earlier, when he said...

Another money system is described on http://digitalcoin.info (this is what the Money as Debt 2 movie refers to). As with bitcoins, I see no formal specification of how it is supposed to work, but it seems to me to be a better system than bitcoins if you look at the kind of properties one would want to get out of a money system and those that are actually obtained.

Bitcoins are similar to the permanent digital coins type, but have the downside (or upside depending on your role) of having a purely speculative value. The credit coin has no counterpart in the Bitcoin system and as such doesn't perform all functions one would like to get from a money system.

The author of bitcoins has a technical background, but less of an experience in money history (correct me if I am wrong). The designer of the digitalcoin probably has a less technical background, but a firm understanding of money and its history.

The most important feature that the digital coins have is that you never have the "we won't do this project, because there is no money"-problem, which was what happened in 1929. There were workers, people wanting to eat, and factories, but no money.

Initially, it does seem rather complicated to make these kinds of credit coins contract (see the movie), but if one were to label ever product with a number (which already happens for a lot of products (e.g. a soda)), then it wouldn't really be a problem.  

What are your thoughts on digital coin?

P.S.
Is the guy from OpenTransactions also on this forum? It seems he has the broadest technical view as he has implemented a very wide range of systems and documented these on his website.

The overall idea proposed by Paul is a VERY intriguing concept...   And, from my viewpoint, they seem very much in concert with Bitcoin concepts... just an EXPANSION of the Bitcoin idea... from being only about VALUE... into the world of CREDIT...  Self-created credit.  Automatically-adjusted-value credit.  And Interest-Free credit.   Very interesting.  

Credit coins are a popular idea on alternative money sites.

The usual set up is slightly different than what you are putting forth though, rather than 20 BTC of your services they are worth a time increment of your time.  This would allow for them to be worth more than 20 btc, whereas only a fool would pay more than 20btc for a voucher that can only be redeemed for 20btc worth of services.  if it is worth an hour however it could be worth 20btc now, and considerably more in the future as you become more recognized or more trained.

[Babylon]

Paul and narrator Bob Bossin both live in Nanaimo. I have not met Paul but do know Bob personally and can go knock on his door any time.

I suspect these men are put off by promoters of Sodom. We don't ingest phytoestrogens or BPA here.

You know, most people don't care if you are gay, straight or even zoo as long as you close your bedroom door before you fuck.

Wearing your gonads out on your shirtsleeve is bound to put off normal people regardless of your "orientation".

Promotion of perversion is just that, and normal people are repulsed by those who do it.

As far as I can tell, the biggest obstacle to the acceptance of bitcoin is the dirty reputation of our self appointed cheerleader.

Having prudes in our more prominent voices is likely to hurt us just as much if not more.

Now I do expect Bruce, or anyone else, to keep actual sex behind the bedroom doors.  I wouldn't want to be associated with someone foolish enough to do it in the road.  On the other hand bringing your spouse or lover with you to a dinner, business meeting, or public event is not only normal it is expected.  Whether that person is the same gender as you, a different gender, or is even more than one person is not something that needs to be judged by anyone else. 

[Babylon]

Decent people keep their junk in the closet; they don't define themselves by their peccadillos nor do they parade their embarrassing abnormalities for all to see.

Stop cloaking your personal attack of Bruce Wagner in sexual euphemisms. It's disrespectful and embarrassing for community members to attack others' sexual orientation.

I am glad that he has done so.  I had considered dealing with nanimogold and the fact that he has been clear about his on prejudice allows me to make an informed business decision not to do so.

I hope he and any other homophobes, racists, sexists etc continue to spout their hatred so that I will know who I do not wish to enter into dealings with.

[just a man]

Decent people keep their junk in the closet; they don't define themselves by their peccadillos nor do they parade their embarrassing abnormalities for all to see.

Stop cloaking your personal attack of Bruce Wagner in sexual euphemisms. It's disrespectful and embarrassing for community members to attack others' sexual orientation.

I am glad that he has done so.  I had considered dealing with nanimogold and the fact that he has been clear about his on prejudice allows me to make an informed business decision not to do so.

I hope he and any other homophobes, racists, sexists etc continue to spout their hatred so that I will know who I do not wish to enter into dealings with.

Bravo, completely agree.

I found nanimogol posts off-putting and offensive, almost turning me off bitcoin completely, no matter how good an idea it may be I wouldn't want to involve myself in something where racists and homophobes were so deeply involved. after more reading of the forum I got the impression that nanimogol is an aberration, which is a relief.

I can just about tolerate Libertarians ("Collectivist?" here in Europe we call it a "Society" fer chrissakes, lol), but Stormcunts are a step too far.

[kiba]

Come on.  Isn't that hate about homophobism just as hateful as homophobism itself ?

Even if naimogold doesn't like gay people.  So what ?  Nobody's perfect.

Nobody's perfect, indeed. However, homophobism(and especially communication of homophobism) simply cross the line.

I don't like gay people either.  I kind of despise them.  Beat me.

As long as gay people don't ask hetrosexual males like me out on date, I don't care.

[kiba]

As long as gay people don't ask hetrosexual males like me out on date, I don't care.

But what would you think of someone who, everytime he meets someone, says something like :

"Hi, my name is Bob, and I like to eat my shit."

And what would you think if this person manages to remind us this aspect of his personnality, in every conversation we have ?

Hmm. Eating his shirt? Is that guy supposed to be funny or something. Of course, I would be rather annoyed if he keep reminding me that he eat his shirt.

You know what? I eat balut. It's the kind of Asian delicacy that disgust Westerners.

[grondilu]

As long as gay people don't ask hetrosexual males like me out on date, I don't care.

But what would you think of someone who, everytime he meets someone, says something like :

"Hi, my name is Bob, and I like to eat my shit."

And what would you think if this person manages to remind us this aspect of his personnality, in every conversation we have ?

Hmm. Eating his shirt? Is that guy supposed to be funny or something. Of course, I would be rather annoyed if he keep reminding me that he eat his shirt.

You know what? I eat balut. It's the kind of Asian delicacy that disgust Westerners.

Pff.  I shouldn't have written that anyway.  I don't want to make any ennemies on this forum.  It's pointless.

[ElectricGoat]

Come on.  Isn't that hate about homophobism just as hateful as homophobism itself ?

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not so much hating homophobs as avoiding contact with them and pretending that they don't exist. If the hater shouts in a forest and no one is around to hear him, does he make any sound ?

[MoonShadow]

Come on.  Isn't that hate about homophobism just as hateful as homophobism itself ?

Even if naimogold doesn't like gay people.  So what ?  Nobody's perfect.

Nobody's perfect, indeed. However, homophobism(and especially communication of homophobism) simply cross the line.

How is it any better or worse than any other form of prejudice?  Don't take the high road here, everyone has their cultural taboos.  I didn't say anything about this part of this thread, because I know that I have my own.  In this case, I agree with both sides to some degree.  I have no problem with Bruce's lifestyle, provided that I'm not exposed to it.  However, as Namigold has already pointed out, in his first interview Bruce kinda shared a bit too much.  He was also somewhat led there as well.

[kiba]

How is it any better or worse than any other form of prejudice?  Don't take the high road here, everyone has their cultural taboos.  I didn't say anything about this part of this thread, because I know that I have my own. 

I suspect the only thing you'll be seeing from me is "WOAH! That's taboo" or just being a little jumpy.

However, as long it is an voluntary act, I can't do anything about it.

Now, I may not be the world's most consistent ethical actor...so I expect others to keep me in line when I got out of hand.

Yesterday, somebody resort to personal attacks. Discipline is on the menu.

[Anonymous]

Those who are most outspoken about gay individuals likely are closeted themselves.

Something worth thinking about.

[just a man]

As long as gay people don't ask hetrosexual males like me out on date, I don't care.

But what would you think of someone who, everytime he meets someone, says something like :

"Hi, my name is Bob, and I like to eat my shit."

And what would you think if this person manages to remind us this aspect of his personnality, in every conversation we have ?

Hmm. Eating his shirt? Is that guy supposed to be funny or something. Of course, I would be rather annoyed if he keep reminding me that he eat his shirt.

You know what? I eat balut. It's the kind of Asian delicacy that disgust Westerners.

Pff.  I shouldn't have written that anyway.  I don't want to make any ennemies on this forum.  It's pointless.

You are right, I hereby apologize for what I said about Libertarians. Though their opinions are a bit twattish in my opinion that doesn't make them bad people. The main thing is they're not out to oppress anyone. For the most part Libertarians can handle the idea of there being people in the world that are different from themselves, and that's a good thing.

I save my hatred and despising for the sadists and the rapists, for the thieves and abusers, the tyrants and the murderers.

Hatred is precious and I don't like to see it flaunted and wasted on the undeserving.

[MoonShadow]

How is it any better or worse than any other form of prejudice?  Don't take the high road here, everyone has their cultural taboos.  I didn't say anything about this part of this thread, because I know that I have my own. 

I suspect the only thing you'll be seeing from me is "WOAH! That's taboo" or just being a little jumpy.

One can assume that homosexuality is a taboo subject to anyone that could reasonably be considered a homophobe.  It's not taboo to myself, and likely not yourself; but I would wager that neither of us would seek it out, either.

My point was that everyone has something that is taboo/offensive to themselves, whether it's due to their upbringing, culture or personal issues.  I am not an exception whether I could prevent others from engaging in my taboos or not.  I would be willing to wager that you are not an exception either, if I could disprove a negative without your participation.