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Author Topic: Money as Debt  (Read 12350 times)
grondilu
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December 01, 2010, 08:58:47 PM
 #81

You MUST WATCH this first.  Don't be deceived by the title.  You need to watch this 7 minute video first:   http://www.digitalcoin.info/The_Essence_of_Money.html

I've just watched this first video.  Nothing new under the sun.

This is privately issued money.  It is a good thing, and it should be more used.  It's based on the trust from the public towards an issuer.  It should be easy to do on internet.  By the way, to some extend, one can consider stock shares to be such a kind of money.

Also, I don't believe hoarding to be a problem.  Especially if the money is divisable enough, as bitcoin is.  But we've discussed about that already in this forum.  Search deflation in topic.

Finally, I find it hard to believe that at the end, he proposes his perpetual coin to be related to the US dollar.  WTF !?

His perpetual coinn obviously has to be bitcoin, or at least a cryptocurrency.
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December 01, 2010, 09:30:43 PM
 #82

For example, NOW I understand what farmer_boy was saying earlier, when he said...
Good that you took the time to give it another chance.

I am just amazed that one guy build all these movies (and without asking money for it). Very inspiring. I wonder which tools he uses to get all of that done (which I am sure has taken him a decade to learn (as all experts need)). For me that's just magic.

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December 01, 2010, 11:13:10 PM
 #83

I am just amazed that one guy build all these movies (and without asking money for it). Very inspiring. I wonder which tools he uses to get all of that done (which I am sure has taken him a decade to learn (as all experts need)). For me that's just magic.

I think he lists alot of that information in the credits at the very end of each film.
Bruce Wagner
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December 02, 2010, 02:08:18 AM
 #84

Continuing my correspondence with Paul Grignon of "Money As Debt II"...  I hope you find it interesting.

Hey says,

Quote
> If I understand BitCoin correctly, it is a secure "digital object" that can
> be transferred directly peer-to-peer.  No accounting by a third party like
> PayPal.  Sounds the same as Digital Coin that far.

Yes, exactly.

Quote
> There the similarity ends.  Perpetual Coin's value for purchase with
> national currencies is to be determined by a convergence formula that will
> make it's trajectory a smooth curve, a new " global money unit" that removes
> the noise of currency volatility to leave a pure signal.  It is not
> free-floating like BitCoin initially.

Yes.  Bitcoin was designed to have a free-flowing value right from the start.  However, this might be considered a "bad" thing or a "good" thing.  One thing's for sure, it easily demonstrates that the overall trendline of the value is always rising.   I think that helps people accept it.   Some people will even think of buying Bitcoin as "an investment"... like buying gold and silver.   If it were to remain at par for the USD, fewer people would be easily enticed into using it.   For example, the Liberty Dollar.   People would have to be sold only on its other merits.   My philosophy is:   It doesn't matter which door they come in through.  What matters is that they are inside now.    It's very important that masses of people accept Bitcoin.... even if the only reason they got into it in the first place was, as a speculative investment.

Quote
> It is also not a single uniform commodity like gold or silver in which the
> value depends on scarcity.

I thought I understood the video to say that the Perpetual Coin would be permanent and created in limited supply.

Quote
>  Credit Coin is a delivery contract for specific
> goods and/or services from a specific promisor, just like a note payable in
> gold or silver was. But in this case it could be a note for anything in
> demand.  Demand for the actual product or service is what gives the Credit
> Coin its value.   It is always honoured in product or service by its Issuer
> at face value.

Yes.  So it appears to me like the Bitcoin *is* the Perpetual Coin.

Another issue that I don't really see addressed anywhere, is this:

It seems like, with the second coin, the Credit Coin....   There would end up being millions and millions of different Coins -- each issued by a different issuer.

This seems horribly complex.   How could any merchant possibly be expected to accept anything more than one or two forms of payment.   I think it would be highly unlikely that they would accept any coins other than coins that have solid value (the Perpetual Coin).... and coins that they issued themselves.   I cannot imagine a merchant being willing to accept even a dozen different "currencies" (in effect) --- Credit Coins issued by any of millions of possible issuers.

It seems to me like the Credit Coin is something that would be traded mostly online... by speculators... and discount seekers.   Like day-traders do today.   And like many people who buy discount coupons online now.   

I can also image a real problem with lack of interest in certain Credit Coins issued by obscure or new or unknown entities....  That lack of interest in trading them (buying and selling them on an exchange), could lead to severely under-priced Credit Coins....   And that could soon result in discouraging people from issuing them in the first place...  when they figure out that they are discounting their products/services far more than they feel is fair.

Quote
Quote
>> (2)   How can we help / participate in your "Money as Debt III" project...? 
> You might not like it as I present a case against the concept of money as a
> single uniform commodity, which gold, silver, fiat cash, bank credit, and
> BitCoin all are.
>
> Nonetheless I like the presentation you have.  This is the time for a
> melting pot of new ideas.   I would say MAD III will probably be more
> radical than anything you have seen proposed before, other than Zeitgeist
> and the Venus Project's  "No money at all" idea.

Wow.  I'm very anxious to see it now.... 

Many concepts sound fantastic.... in theory.... on paper....  But selling normal people, common merchants, etc., on the idea.... I can see that being one of the biggest hurdles.

Bruce
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December 02, 2010, 02:38:33 AM
 #85

Awesome of you to reach out on behalf of the community Bruce!

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RHorning
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December 02, 2010, 09:25:31 PM
 #86

This seems horribly complex.   How could any merchant possibly be expected to accept anything more than one or two forms of payment.   I think it would be highly unlikely that they would accept any coins other than coins that have solid value (the Perpetual Coin).... and coins that they issued themselves.   I cannot imagine a merchant being willing to accept even a dozen different "currencies" (in effect) --- Credit Coins issued by any of millions of possible issuers.

It seems to me like the Credit Coin is something that would be traded mostly online... by speculators... and discount seekers.   Like day-traders do today.   And like many people who buy discount coupons online now.   

I can also image a real problem with lack of interest in certain Credit Coins issued by obscure or new or unknown entities....  That lack of interest in trading them (buying and selling them on an exchange), could lead to severely under-priced Credit Coins....   And that could soon result in discouraging people from issuing them in the first place...  when they figure out that they are discounting their products/services far more than they feel is fair.

I think you basically hit upon what the Bitcoin equivalent to these "credit coins" really would be:  Coupons redeemable by a merchant or service provider.  There are some businesses who do recognize coupons of competitors and will even do some funny things like "double coupons" where they double the value of the coupon sent out by a manufacturer.  I could imagine some kind of cryptographic coupon that could be issued by a manufacturer, sent around to different places and perhaps even traded as if it was sort of a form of money only to eventually be "redeemed" by an end consumer who buys a product or service from that business who issued that coupon.

I know that there have been some laws put into place to try and stop "coupon exchanges" and prohibiting merchants from doing the "double coupons" or even having coupons at all.... usually local laws that are trying to "protect the consumer" when in fact they tend to do the opposite and the net effect of such laws tends to make for higher prices that the citizens in those towns have to pay for day to day things they use.

The one thing a smart merchant would do is to put limits or terms upon the coupons... mainly to keep the merchant from going out of business.  A 10% off coupon is pretty reasonable in terms of "advertising" to get somebody to come into a store that has never been there before.  In this sense, a 10 BTC "coupon" that could be certified to be unique might be something worth doing, or even without cryptology or other certification too.  I've seen plenty of merchant coupons that you can print on your home printer and take to a store, simply giving proof that you've seen their website.  It certainly is something that is completely compatible with Bitcoins and IMHO the cryptographic process of Bitcoins actually make coupons of this nature much more attractive for on-line shops where you could produce coupons that couldn't be duplicated.  Traded perhaps, but once they are used it would be pulled out of circulation.  It would also by their nature limit their use, but it could be a form of "money" in some circumstance.

If we can get the Bitcoin banner ad business going, throwing in a promise to get a Bit-coupon provided that the visitor to that website click on the banner ad might be an interesting marketing experiment in its own right.  It sounds like something to at least try out.

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grondilu
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December 02, 2010, 09:36:12 PM
 #87

A producer issueing papers redeemable for his future production, isn't that just the definition of a future contract ?

Basically it seems to me that modern finance has already created Grignon's ideas and much beyond...

He just wants to make them available for everyone, which is a good intent.  But I don't get exactly what is his proposal from a technical point of view.


Anyway, I have the feeling that Grignon just can't accept the idea that money can have no intrisic value.  He seems not to like gold for this reason.  And I guess he will not like bitcoin for the same reason.

Some people think that money should be backed by something real, whatever it is.  I totally disagree.  I beleive money is a pure abstract medium of exchange.  If money had intrisic value, we would not use it as money.

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December 03, 2010, 01:07:24 AM
 #88

A producer issueing papers redeemable for his future production, isn't that just the definition of a future contract ?

Basically it seems to me that modern finance has already created Grignon's ideas and much beyond...

He just wants to make them available for everyone, which is a good intent.  But I don't get exactly what is his proposal from a technical point of view.


Anyway, I have the feeling that Grignon just can't accept the idea that money can have no intrisic value.  He seems not to like gold for this reason.  And I guess he will not like bitcoin for the same reason.

Some people think that money should be backed by something real, whatever it is.  I totally disagree.  I beleive money is a pure abstract medium of exchange.  If money had intrisic value, we would not use it as money.



I never thought a "no use value" money could be a good money until bitcoin. If you think about how long people will trade pieces of paper even while governments actively debase them it's amazing. If people get into the habit of bitcoin I think it'll hold for a very long time.

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December 09, 2010, 01:26:49 PM
 #89

Paul and narrator Bob Bossin both live in Nanaimo. I have not met Paul but do know Bob personally and can go knock on his door any time.

I suspect these men are put off by promoters of Sodom. We don't ingest phytoestrogens or BPA here.

You know, most people don't care if you are gay, straight or even zoo as long as you close your bedroom door before you fuck.

Wearing your gonads out on your shirtsleeve is bound to put off normal people regardless of your "orientation".

Promotion of perversion is just that, and normal people are repulsed by those who do it.

As far as I can tell, the biggest obstacle to the acceptance of bitcoin is the dirty reputation of our self appointed cheerleader.

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Timo Y
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December 09, 2010, 02:19:57 PM
 #90

As far as I can tell, the biggest obstacle to the acceptance of bitcoin is the dirty reputation of our self appointed cheerleader.

Reputation is subjective.

My guess is that extremist, irrational views based on the naturalistic fallacy, wisdom of repugnance, and argumentum ad populum, are not going to resonate well with the highly educated and rational Bitcoin crowd.

Probably a good idea not escalate this discussion, otherwise you will be the one with the dirty reputation.

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kiba
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December 09, 2010, 02:36:05 PM
 #91

As far as I can tell, the biggest obstacle to the acceptance of bitcoin is the dirty reputation of our self appointed cheerleader.
Huh

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December 09, 2010, 02:38:07 PM
 #92

As far as I can tell, the biggest obstacle to the acceptance of bitcoin is the dirty reputation of our self appointed cheerleader.

Well if that really is the biggest obstacle that Bitcoin needs to deal with, its success is assured.
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December 09, 2010, 02:44:41 PM
 #93

As far as I can tell, the biggest obstacle to the acceptance of bitcoin is the dirty reputation of our self appointed cheerleader.
Huh
I suspect he has a problem with the fact that Bruce Wagner is a phytoestrogen-infested New Yorker.  Smiley

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December 09, 2010, 07:05:43 PM
 #94

I never thought a "no use value" money could be a good money until bitcoin. If you think about how long people will trade pieces of paper even while governments actively debase them it's amazing.

That's only because of habit combined with no working alternative that the public is aware of.

If the pubic becomes generally aware of bitcoin, and a common method of in person transactions is developed, many people will switch in mass, and governments will start to have to deal with the population demanding their wages in bitcoin directly.  I've mentioned before, that I think that the day that I can walk into a Kroger or a Wal-Mart and buy stuff, even if I have to go through a special line to do so, then Bitcoin will already be unstoppable.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 10, 2010, 08:57:49 AM
 #95

Paul and narrator Bob Bossin both live in Nanaimo. I have not met Paul but do know Bob personally and can go knock on his door any time.

I suspect these men are put off by promoters of Sodom. We don't ingest phytoestrogens or BPA here.

You know, most people don't care if you are gay, straight or even zoo as long as you close your bedroom door before you fuck.

Wearing your gonads out on your shirtsleeve is bound to put off normal people regardless of your "orientation".

Promotion of perversion is just that, and normal people are repulsed by those who do it.

As far as I can tell, the biggest obstacle to the acceptance of bitcoin is the dirty reputation of our self appointed cheerleader.
What is Sodom? I also had no idea what phytoestrogens or BPA were, but BPA surely seems like a very bad idea according to all kinds of referenced studies (or are they part of yet another conspiracy) Wink

I also think a promotor could better be a someone who is not from a minority group fom a marketing point of view and it should also be someone who picks the communication channels somewhat better. Really, all those advertisements on that show are certainly not mainstream. The only reason those advertisements are in that show is because the target audience is willing to buy that stuff. Since nobody did a scientific study showing that one actually needs those products to live longer (people do still get over 120 years old), there is no reason to buy them.   

I agree mostly with nanaimogold.

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December 17, 2010, 08:37:37 PM
 #96

I enjoyed this.  I thought it had a lot of good points, and was pretty true on most cases.  On point that it made was that money does not have any value until it is spent.  This is a huge fact that many people forget.  It's a waste to do just sit on your money and do nothing.  It has no value just sitting idle somewhere.  Use it or at least invest in something so that it's actually doing some good.

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December 17, 2010, 11:40:02 PM
 #97


I also think a promotor could better be a someone who is not from a minority group fom a marketing point of view and it should also be someone who picks the communication channels somewhat better. 
 

It doesn't matter if someone is better everyone who wants to will promote. This isn't an election. Everyone is from some minority group anyway. I'm probably in 6.

I think Bruce is doing great work.

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December 28, 2010, 06:31:21 AM
 #98

I've written a reply to this thread, but since it's very long I've posted it in a new thread:
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2492.0

I explain in detail how I think Digital Coin might work and why it should be compatible with Bitcoin.
Bruce Wagner
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January 07, 2011, 07:31:05 PM
 #99


I also think a promotor could better be a someone who is not from a minority group fom a marketing point of view and it should also be someone who picks the communication channels somewhat better. 
 

It doesn't matter if someone is better everyone who wants to will promote. This isn't an election. Everyone is from some minority group anyway. I'm probably in 6.

I think Bruce is doing great work.

Wow.   See what happens when you start a thread and then get busy and don't check back in until a month later....   Smiley

No one elected me promoter.    I'm just doing what I feel compelled to do.    If you don't like it:

(1)   Ignore me.
(2)   Make yourself a promoter.

It's true that everyone is in at least a few minorities.    And if that's so important to you, then become THE promoter yourself.    I'd be willing to bet that nanaimogold is in more minorities than I am.    But who the h*ll cares.    I really thought this was 2011.    Get with it, and get over it.   I'm gay.    If you don't like it, don't marry me.
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January 08, 2011, 07:29:06 PM
 #100

Paul and narrator Bob Bossin both live in Nanaimo. I have not met Paul but do know Bob personally and can go knock on his door any time.

I suspect these men are put off by promoters of Sodom. We don't ingest phytoestrogens or BPA here.

You know, most people don't care if you are gay, straight or even zoo as long as you close your bedroom door before you fuck.

Wearing your gonads out on your shirtsleeve is bound to put off normal people regardless of your "orientation".

Promotion of perversion is just that, and normal people are repulsed by those who do it.

As far as I can tell, the biggest obstacle to the acceptance of bitcoin is the dirty reputation of our self appointed cheerleader.

Wow. What an absolute tosser.

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