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Author Topic: Greedy developers want to call off Bitcoin Mass adoption - long term down trend?  (Read 2958 times)
00null
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May 09, 2013, 02:03:18 PM
 #1

To all those that believe that in the near future you will be able to pay for your Latte at Starbucks using Bitcoins.
Up to now it would be safe for, say, Starbucks to accept a 0 confirmation transaction for your Latte. It is almost impossible and totally uneconomical to double spend those 0.05 BTC.
Some Bitcoin developers https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199947.0 have developed a patch that not only makes transactions reversible but actually brings double spends to the masses. There goes the Starbuck dream. Everyone will be able to double spend or even cancel those 0.05 BTC transactions with a click of a button.
I don't know nothing about the probability that Gavin will include such a patch, but it would be devastating for Bitcoins future.
My take: the force behind this patch is the banking cartel and greedy Bitcoin developers fail to notice this trap. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179612.0
Once investors and merchants realize those negative implication for the future of Bitcoin it could lead to a long term down trend.

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May 09, 2013, 02:46:48 PM
 #2

just sold ALL BTC on this news I was really a-scared for a sec tyvm for the tip

Bears spreadin fud...
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May 09, 2013, 02:49:18 PM
 #3

Innovation - the nemesis of all pigish Bitcoin investors.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
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May 09, 2013, 02:54:41 PM
 #4

just sold ALL BTC on this news I was really a-scared for a sec tyvm for the tip

Bears spreadin fud...
FUD? I read this on the Bitcoin developer mailing list and I thought I should share it with you guys.

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May 09, 2013, 05:32:46 PM
 #5

it is FUD.

i just read the thread.  what someone is proposing is to try and improve the system that currently can strand a tx from too little fees, ie, an unconfirmed tx.

none of the proposals discussed allow a double spend.  they talk about replacing a stranded tx with a higher fee to encourage propagation.
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May 09, 2013, 05:35:58 PM
 #6

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.

Despite some delusions to the contrary, bitcoin can not be made suitable for instant transactions.  Other services are necessary to handle the risks that are inherent in such transactions.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
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May 09, 2013, 05:45:04 PM
 #7

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.


Like I'm sayin'.  Bitcoin HAS performed VERY well as a store of wealth / monetary backbone network.  And we have LTC, which transfers pretty quickly.  OH NOES BUT WE CAN'T USE BOTH  ::: cry :::

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May 09, 2013, 05:50:57 PM
 #8

To all those that believe that in the near future you will be able to pay for your Latte at Starbucks using Bitcoins.



fail.....

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May 09, 2013, 08:15:12 PM
 #9

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.
Have you ever tried to double spend? It is more or less impossible if you are not a very very big miner. People claiming that this is easy have no f'ing clue how the Bitcoin network operates. So yes zero-conf would be a perfect fit for your $3 Latte.

Despite some delusions to the contrary, bitcoin can not be made suitable for instant transactions. 
It cannot be made, because it already is. Granted, it will never be possible to buy a car with a zero-conf tx. But for everything below $10 a zero-conf tx is perfect. At least as long as you cannot reverse it by adding some $0.001 fee.

Other services are necessary to handle the risks that are inherent in such transactions.
That is what I suspect. Paypal/banks sponsor that change. Now they can claim that while waiting 10 minutes (or sometimes half an hour) your coffee gets cold. Better convert your Bitcoins to something else before spending it. Maybe we could store the value on little pieces of paper. Lets call it dollar. After some time when almost everyone accepts it we can get rid of that clumsy Bitcoin thing and only use this paper money. </sarcasm>

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May 09, 2013, 08:18:47 PM
 #10

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.
Have you ever tried to double spend? It is more or less impossible if you are not a very very big miner. People claiming that this is easy have no f'ing clue how the Bitcoin network operates. So yes zero-conf would be a perfect fit for your $3 Latte.
Except... this patch exists.  Which means it is quite possible for people to do it.

Better to have the benefit of such a patch for the whole populace than have the benefit only for the thieves who know how to integrate such a patch, preying on unsuspecting victims who think 0-conf transactions are safe.

I am bullish on this news.  It kills another potential attack vector / security hole that was present by making sure everyone is well aware of the possibility of this happening.
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May 09, 2013, 08:27:26 PM
 #11

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.
Have you ever tried to double spend? It is more or less impossible if you are not a very very big miner. People claiming that this is easy have no f'ing clue how the Bitcoin network operates. So yes zero-conf would be a perfect fit for your $3 Latte.
Except... this patch exists.  Which means it is quite possible for people to do it.
I write a patch to send me all your coins and still as long as you don't install it this patch will do nothing.

Better to have the benefit of such a patch for the whole populace than have the benefit only for the thieves who know how to integrate such a patch, preying on unsuspecting victims who think 0-conf transactions are safe.
The "benefit" is that it disables possible use cases. The victims would be be merchant like Starbucks that get robbed $3 that way, while millions of ppl could regular pay with Bitcoins at the same time. You are one of those guys that try to outlaw cash, because it can be used for illegal thing. Once everything works electronically it can be traced and monitored and everyone is safe. Except now no one is. Same benefit as from this patch.

I am bullish on this news.  It kills another potential attack vector / security hole that was present by making sure everyone is well aware of the possibility of this happening.
I repeat, have you ever tried this? Basically impossible. So bullish on making Bitcoin worse? Permabull in denial



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May 09, 2013, 08:41:23 PM
 #12

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.
Have you ever tried to double spend? It is more or less impossible if you are not a very very big miner. People claiming that this is easy have no f'ing clue how the Bitcoin network operates. So yes zero-conf would be a perfect fit for your $3 Latte.
Except... this patch exists.  Which means it is quite possible for people to do it.
I write a patch to send me all your coins and still as long as you don't install it this patch will do nothing.
Huh?  In that case, the victim would have to install that patch in order to be victimized.  In this case with the 0-conf security hole, no one has to install a patch to be victimized, but an attacker could certainly install the patch to make it easier for him to make people victims.  Those are polar opposites.

Quote
Better to have the benefit of such a patch for the whole populace than have the benefit only for the thieves who know how to integrate such a patch, preying on unsuspecting victims who think 0-conf transactions are safe.
The "benefit" is that it disables possible use cases. The victims would be be merchant like Starbucks that get robbed $3 that way, while millions of ppl could regular pay with Bitcoins at the same time. You are one of those guys that try to outlaw cash, because it can be used for illegal thing. Once everything works electronically it can be traced and monitored and everyone is safe. Except now no one is. Same benefit as from this patch.
It disables possible use cases that shouldn't have been use cases at all.  Starbucks shouldn't be getting robbed of $3 this way, because they shouldn't be accepting 0-conf transactions anyway.  They are inherently unsafe.  Gavin's patch shows exactly why they are inherently unsafe - anyone could code such a patch and use it in their client.

Saying that 0-conf transactions can be secure is like not having locks on your house and pretending that it is perfectly safe to leave for the weekend.  "Well, as long as someone doesn't spend the time to figure out my house is unlocked, it'll be fine - nothing will be stolen."  While that may be true, more and more criminals will decide to check houses to see if they are locked if they know that people are leaving their houses unlocked.  Similarly, while 0-conf transactions may be mostly safe today, you can guarantee that patches to double-spend coins would be very prevalent in the future, just like aimbots are prevalent in FPS games.  Gavin is preventing a big problem before it starts by making it a really bad idea to accept 0-conf transactions and prevent merchants from relying on 0-conf transactions.

Quote
I am bullish on this news.  It kills another potential attack vector / security hole that was present by making sure everyone is well aware of the possibility of this happening.
I repeat, have you ever tried this? Basically impossible. So bullish on making Bitcoin worse? Permabull in denial
Not impossible at all.  All I would have to do is patch Gavin's pull request into my own Bitcoin-QT, and viola!  Double-spending powers!  You can say that he shouldn't have done that, but then, what would stop anyone else from making a similar patch and only sharing it among the criminal underground?
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May 09, 2013, 08:47:55 PM
 #13

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.
Have you ever tried to double spend? It is more or less impossible if you are not a very very big miner. People claiming that this is easy have no f'ing clue how the Bitcoin network operates. So yes zero-conf would be a perfect fit for your $3 Latte.
Except... this patch exists.  Which means it is quite possible for people to do it.
I write a patch to send me all your coins and still as long as you don't install it this patch will do nothing.
Huh?  In that case, the victim would have to install that patch in order to be victimized.  In this case with the 0-conf security hole, no one has to install a patch to be victimized, but an attacker could certainly install the patch to make it easier for him to make people victims.  Those are polar opposites.

Quote
Better to have the benefit of such a patch for the whole populace than have the benefit only for the thieves who know how to integrate such a patch, preying on unsuspecting victims who think 0-conf transactions are safe.
The "benefit" is that it disables possible use cases. The victims would be be merchant like Starbucks that get robbed $3 that way, while millions of ppl could regular pay with Bitcoins at the same time. You are one of those guys that try to outlaw cash, because it can be used for illegal thing. Once everything works electronically it can be traced and monitored and everyone is safe. Except now no one is. Same benefit as from this patch.
It disables possible use cases that shouldn't have been use cases at all.  Starbucks shouldn't be getting robbed of $3 this way, because they shouldn't be accepting 0-conf transactions anyway.  They are inherently unsafe.  Gavin's patch shows exactly why they are inherently unsafe - anyone could code such a patch and use it in their client.

Saying that 0-conf transactions can be secure is like not having locks on your house and pretending that it is perfectly safe to leave for the weekend.  "Well, as long as someone doesn't spend the time to figure out my house is unlocked, it'll be fine - nothing will be stolen."  While that may be true, more and more criminals will decide to check houses to see if they are locked if they know that people are leaving their houses unlocked.  Similarly, while 0-conf transactions may be mostly safe today, you can guarantee that patches to double-spend coins would be very prevalent in the future, just like aimbots are prevalent in FPS games.  Gavin is preventing a big problem before it starts by making it a really bad idea to accept 0-conf transactions and prevent merchants from relying on 0-conf transactions.

Quote
I am bullish on this news.  It kills another potential attack vector / security hole that was present by making sure everyone is well aware of the possibility of this happening.
I repeat, have you ever tried this? Basically impossible. So bullish on making Bitcoin worse? Permabull in denial
Not impossible at all.  All I would have to do is patch Gavin's pull request into my own Bitcoin-QT, and viola!  Double-spending powers!  You can say that he shouldn't have done that, but then, what would stop anyone else from making a similar patch and only sharing it among the criminal underground?
The miner has to install this patch. And everyone else on the Bitcoin network. No one cares about your client. No one would propagate your double spend. This patch is necessary to propagate the double spends. At the moment the Bitcoin network prohibits double spends. This patch enables it. A huge "benefit"...

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May 09, 2013, 08:52:15 PM
 #14

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.


this.

wouldn't thrust a 0 confirmation EVER! that's why bitcoin in it's current state is not ready for fast transactions.

(it can be used as a fast transaction if you thrust the guy sending it..  like a regular customer in your bar or something)

to me this forum part is just FUD  .. we all know coins are not going to crash much further down so they all want them cheap coins .. the speculation forum is not here to help you
it's here to manipulate you  

maybe i'm manipulating other people because i'm bullish Wink

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May 09, 2013, 08:57:06 PM
 #15

Gavin seems to be opposed to this double spend enabling patch: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199947.msg2090345#msg2090345
Thank god, or better, thank you Gavin!
Back to bullish mode Smiley

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May 09, 2013, 09:01:46 PM
 #16

lol, what a mess

                                 
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May 09, 2013, 09:03:19 PM
 #17

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.

Despite some delusions to the contrary, bitcoin can not be made suitable for instant transactions.  Other services are necessary to handle the risks that are inherent in such transactions.

zero conf is a perfectly legitimate use case so long as the two parites have a degree of trust

in fact the MAJORITY of bitcoin transactions either already are or should be zero conf

consider mount gox or seals with clubs, not every transactions goes through the block chain, the server in the middle is trusted not to double spend until a withdrawl is made
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May 09, 2013, 09:04:25 PM
 #18

The force behind this patch is that zero-conf transactions have never, ever, ever, ever, ever been safe in any way, shape or form.  Now everyone has to accept reality.
Have you ever tried to double spend? It is more or less impossible if you are not a very very big miner. People claiming that this is easy have no f'ing clue how the Bitcoin network operates. So yes zero-conf would be a perfect fit for your $3 Latte.
Except... this patch exists.  Which means it is quite possible for people to do it.
I write a patch to send me all your coins and still as long as you don't install it this patch will do nothing.
Huh?  In that case, the victim would have to install that patch in order to be victimized.  In this case with the 0-conf security hole, no one has to install a patch to be victimized, but an attacker could certainly install the patch to make it easier for him to make people victims.  Those are polar opposites.

Quote
Better to have the benefit of such a patch for the whole populace than have the benefit only for the thieves who know how to integrate such a patch, preying on unsuspecting victims who think 0-conf transactions are safe.
The "benefit" is that it disables possible use cases. The victims would be be merchant like Starbucks that get robbed $3 that way, while millions of ppl could regular pay with Bitcoins at the same time. You are one of those guys that try to outlaw cash, because it can be used for illegal thing. Once everything works electronically it can be traced and monitored and everyone is safe. Except now no one is. Same benefit as from this patch.
It disables possible use cases that shouldn't have been use cases at all.  Starbucks shouldn't be getting robbed of $3 this way, because they shouldn't be accepting 0-conf transactions anyway.  They are inherently unsafe.  Gavin's patch shows exactly why they are inherently unsafe - anyone could code such a patch and use it in their client.

Saying that 0-conf transactions can be secure is like not having locks on your house and pretending that it is perfectly safe to leave for the weekend.  "Well, as long as someone doesn't spend the time to figure out my house is unlocked, it'll be fine - nothing will be stolen."  While that may be true, more and more criminals will decide to check houses to see if they are locked if they know that people are leaving their houses unlocked.  Similarly, while 0-conf transactions may be mostly safe today, you can guarantee that patches to double-spend coins would be very prevalent in the future, just like aimbots are prevalent in FPS games.  Gavin is preventing a big problem before it starts by making it a really bad idea to accept 0-conf transactions and prevent merchants from relying on 0-conf transactions.

Quote
I am bullish on this news.  It kills another potential attack vector / security hole that was present by making sure everyone is well aware of the possibility of this happening.
I repeat, have you ever tried this? Basically impossible. So bullish on making Bitcoin worse? Permabull in denial
Not impossible at all.  All I would have to do is patch Gavin's pull request into my own Bitcoin-QT, and viola!  Double-spending powers!  You can say that he shouldn't have done that, but then, what would stop anyone else from making a similar patch and only sharing it among the criminal underground?
The miner has to install this patch. And everyone else on the Bitcoin network. No one cares about your client. No one would propagate your double spend. This patch is necessary to propagate the double spends. At the moment the Bitcoin network prohibits double spends. This patch enables it. A huge "benefit"...
Right, you are right - I misunderstood the patch.  My apologies.
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May 09, 2013, 09:05:28 PM
 #19

That's why OP is in my very special list and will stay there Smiley

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May 09, 2013, 09:10:29 PM
 #20

Other services are necessary to handle the risks that are inherent in such transactions.
That is what I suspect. Paypal/banks sponsor that change. Now they can claim that while waiting 10 minutes (or sometimes half an hour) your coffee gets cold. Better convert your Bitcoins to something else before spending it. Maybe we could store the value on little pieces of paper. Lets call it dollar. After some time when almost everyone accepts it we can get rid of that clumsy Bitcoin thing and only use this paper money. </sarcasm>

You seem quite intent on clinging to the mistaken belief that zero confirmation transactions were or are safe.  I guess if you aren't going to accept that work and hope-for-work are different, there isn't much point talking here.

P.S.  There seems to be some confusion here.  The network did not previously relay double spends, but this was bad because it meant that a vendor would be unaware of attacks.  That was one patch, and it was about relaying transactions.  The patch mentioned in the links in the first post is to change the default behavior of the node when being used for mining.  The relay patch needed broad support, the mining patch needs only one person to run it.

p2pcoin: a USB/CD/PXE p2pool miner - 1N8ZXx2cuMzqBYSK72X4DAy1UdDbZQNPLf - todo
I routinely ignore posters with paid advertising in their sigs.  You should too.
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