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Author Topic: Loans for goods  (Read 1630 times)
tyler
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November 29, 2010, 08:31:45 PM
 #1

Im thinking about starting a service where you tell me what you want, I buy it and ship it to you, then you pay me back over time with bitcoin for  small profit. Obviously people with high trust are needed as customers so the seller doesn't get screwed. Im beginning to see that its the network that has the power, not the currency itself.

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tyler
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November 30, 2010, 01:34:26 AM
 #2

In this same vein, i think it would be cool to add a trust point in the web of trust for every successful payment

for example you want a chair, said chair costs 50 bucks

i ship chair to you, now you owe me cost of chair plus shipping, plus lets say a 10 dollar handling fee

lets say your total is now 80 (guessing, might be more, irrelevant)

now lets say you want to pay me 8 payments of 10 USD worth of bitcoin

at the end of the transaction you now have 8 more trust points than you previously had.

i would want you to give me the same amount of trust back, because, well, i sent you a chair for free essentially


thoughts?

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November 30, 2010, 01:42:23 AM
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I think that it's too vague an idea to judge the risks.  Details are neccessary.  Perhaps you could develop it into a system that adjusts for risks to the lender, but I don't think anyone else is going to help unless you can prove the validity of your idea yourself.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
tyler
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November 30, 2010, 02:24:19 AM
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I think that it's too vague an idea to judge the risks.  Details are neccessary.  Perhaps you could develop it into a system that adjusts for risks to the lender, but I don't think anyone else is going to help unless you can prove the validity of your idea yourself.


oh fully, initially im willing to accept all the risk myself, and only do this with people i trust as an experiment.

I'll report my findings here.

just wanted to announce my thoughts

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November 30, 2010, 03:31:00 AM
 #5

I think that it's too vague an idea to judge the risks.  Details are neccessary.  Perhaps you could develop it into a system that adjusts for risks to the lender, but I don't think anyone else is going to help unless you can prove the validity of your idea yourself.


oh fully, initially im willing to accept all the risk myself, and only do this with people i trust as an experiment.

I'll report my findings here.

just wanted to announce my thoughts

If other people start valuing the points without looking at details then people will just run up transactions and payments back and forth for getting points. Because of this I don't think anyone will put much stock in the points, but only in actual reports from actual people they know.

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tyler
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November 30, 2010, 04:31:24 AM
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I think that it's too vague an idea to judge the risks.  Details are neccessary.  Perhaps you could develop it into a system that adjusts for risks to the lender, but I don't think anyone else is going to help unless you can prove the validity of your idea yourself.


oh fully, initially im willing to accept all the risk myself, and only do this with people i trust as an experiment.

I'll report my findings here.

just wanted to announce my thoughts

If other people start valuing the points without looking at details then people will just run up transactions and payments back and forth for getting points. Because of this I don't think anyone will put much stock in the points, but only in actual reports from actual people they know.

the details are, i made a risk and they didn't screw me. thats valid in *any* trust system

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nelisky
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November 30, 2010, 04:34:42 AM
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The trust system would be the base for everything, as it always is for bitcoins. A good trust system would be one that allows you to filter the trust ratings to only those that were given by people you already trust, I think. But, yeah, trust systems can't be blindly trusted Smiley

Just like in auction sites, feedback is not just a number, it has to include comments AND history of feedback for those giving out feedback, so we can at least try to filter out those that try to subvert the system to their benefit.
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November 30, 2010, 06:19:06 AM
 #8

I think that it's too vague an idea to judge the risks.  Details are neccessary.  Perhaps you could develop it into a system that adjusts for risks to the lender, but I don't think anyone else is going to help unless you can prove the validity of your idea yourself.


oh fully, initially im willing to accept all the risk myself, and only do this with people i trust as an experiment.

I'll report my findings here.

just wanted to announce my thoughts

If other people start valuing the points without looking at details then people will just run up transactions and payments back and forth for getting points. Because of this I don't think anyone will put much stock in the points, but only in actual reports from actual people they know.

the details are, i made a risk and they didn't screw me. thats valid in *any* trust system

Ah, I imagined you were suggesting a generalization where anyone would be able to award points. My mistake.

I always thought the credit system in the US was weird. People are encouraged to borrow even when they don't need to if they are young in order to prove they can pay back. It should be the opposite. "This guy is 27 and never needed to borrow any money! Wow, he must really have his shit together!" But no.

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kiba
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November 30, 2010, 06:22:25 AM
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Ah, I imagined you were suggesting a generalization where anyone would be able to award points. My mistake.

I always thought the credit system in the US was weird. People are encouraged to borrow even when they don't need to if they are young in order to prove they can pay back. It should be the opposite. "This guy is 27 and never needed to borrow any money! Wow, he must really have his shit together!" But no.

Having no debt IS getting your shit together.

Plus, you get points for doing so. If you have a credit card budget set below what you actually earn, you get free points.

Plus, the credit card industry hate you. You make no money for them and thus called a "deadbeat".

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November 30, 2010, 06:27:21 AM
 #10

They want you to take out loans fail and become a wage slave.

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kiba
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November 30, 2010, 06:28:46 AM
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They want you to take out loans fail and become a wage slave.

There is no such thing as a wage slave.

Plus if you have any notion of fiscal discipline and practice it, you won't have any debt. It's called not spending beyond your means and SAVING.

tyler
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November 30, 2010, 06:42:46 AM
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There is no such thing as a wage slave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

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kiba
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November 30, 2010, 06:47:41 AM
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I deny that it is slavery.

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November 30, 2010, 06:49:22 AM
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Just because there is a wikipedia entry, doesn't it make it so, necessarily.  That's a classic logical fallacy, I believe it's often called the "appeal to authority".

Not that your opposition offered much of a rational argument either.

Hmm, I really would like to see this question debated.   "Is economic (wage) slavery actually slavery?"

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
tyler
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November 30, 2010, 09:04:48 AM
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Just because there is a wikipedia entry, doesn't it make it so, necessarily.  That's a classic logical fallacy, I believe it's often called the "appeal to authority".

Not that your opposition offered much of a rational argument either.

Hmm, I really would like to see this question debated.   "Is economic (wage) slavery actually slavery?"



That entirely depends on how you define slavery.

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ribuck
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November 30, 2010, 11:08:28 AM
 #16

"Is economic (wage) slavery actually slavery?"

This boils down to one issue: are the wage workers prevented by the force of statism from becoming the employers instead?

If the employees are freely allowed to become employers, the system is self-balancing and each person will fill the slot that suits them. There's no wage slavery if a wage worker is not stopped by force by becoming an employer instead.

Even if an individual employee is not in a position to become an employer, provided plenty of others can make the switch then it protects the other employees too, by keeping wages as high as sustainably possible.

On the other hand, if the state uses force to impose quotas, licensing, forced monopolies, registration, or even just bureaucratic overhead so high that a one-person business can't realistically cope, then it cleaves society into employees and employers and virtually guarantees the existence of wage slaves.
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