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Question: Would you consider yourself a...
Liberal/Democrat/"Left" - 4 (8.3%)
Minarchist Libertarian - 4 (8.3%)
Anarcho-Capitalist Libertarian - 21 (43.8%)
Anarchist/Left-Libertarian - 8 (16.7%)
Conservative/Republican/"Right" - 2 (4.2%)
None of the Above (specify in thread) - 7 (14.6%)
Socialist - 2 (4.2%)
Total Voters: 46

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Author Topic: Political Assessment  (Read 6942 times)
kiba
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December 07, 2010, 02:37:50 PM
 #61

Look like we got a supermajority of libertarians, and then the libertarians are composed mostly of anarchists.

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December 07, 2010, 04:28:46 PM
 #62

The road system is easy. Without government we may already have personal flying cars like the jetsons. Then all the roads could be used for something more productive.

You see the roads the government has built but you dont see the opportunity cost of all the policies that maintains the monopoly.

There is a group of private individuals near where I live who have proposed to build a fairly long bridge (about 5 miles long... not a single span of that length but it will cross about that far in relatively shallow water) and to have that bridge paid for completely with private funds.  The proposed route happens to cross a fairly large lake (380 km^2) that happens to have a major urban area immediately adjacent to it with a large and growing population on the other side of the lake.

What is interesting here is that this group is basically offering to run this bridge as a completely for-profit private enterprise where this company would be entirely responsible for maintenance and operation of the bridge.  All they are asking for is to set up toll booths to pay for the bridge.  It happens to be in a state where until now there are no toll roads are found and all highways are public (with a few other minor exceptions, but access to those roads is without a toll).  The debate right now is to see if the state is even going to let the thing happen, as the lake itself is considered "state owned property".  The land needed to connect the bridge to state highways that isn't underwater is already purchased and owned by this company, including potentially a route straight to an interstate highway interchange that could be upgraded to expressway standards and several thousand cars per hour for traffic.

As for another perhaps even more concrete example of transportation infrastructure being paid for with private funds, the Las Vegas Monorail is interesting as it is a completely privately financed mass transit system where the operations of the line are paid for through fares and advertising alone.  To the best of my knowledge they aren't getting any federal mass transit subsidies and I could be mistaken, but I do know that no state or local taxes are being used to pay for the system.

Private transportation systems can work if allowed, which I guess is my point here including these examples.  The government doesn't have to do everything for you and you would be really surprised what "government services" can be performed by private organizations if they are but allowed.  I can't think of any sort of government service of any kind at all including military protection and police services that aren't being done by private organizations outside of the direct control of a government agency.

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Vinnie
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December 07, 2010, 06:57:51 PM
 #63

Anarchist, but I wouldn't describe myself as an ancap or a leftist.

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grondilu
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December 08, 2010, 02:35:11 AM
 #64

Anarchist, but I wouldn't describe myself as an ancap or a leftist.

Well, are you ok with people working for a  salary instead of a share of the benefits of the company they work for ?

If you are, then you're ancap.  Otherwise, you're leftist.
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December 08, 2010, 03:22:37 AM
 #65

Anarchist, but I wouldn't describe myself as an ancap or a leftist.

Well, are you ok with people working for a  salary instead of a share of the benefits of the company they work for ?

If you are, then you're ancap.  Otherwise, you're leftist.

A salary is a share of the benefits that the company produces, based upon the demand and the worth of the work done. It is just taken in the long-run, not the short.

One off NP-Hard.
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December 08, 2010, 03:44:57 AM
 #66

A salary is a share of the benefits that the company produces, based upon the demand and the worth of the work done. It is just taken in the long-run, not the short.

I'm sorry but no, it is not.

Salary is not a share of the benefits.  Benefits are what's left once salaries and other expenses have been paid.

Salary is a previously agreed amount of money that is paid to an employee in exchange for his work.  It is the same whatever is the financial situation of the company, whether it is in deficit or in benefit.


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December 08, 2010, 04:11:30 AM
 #67

A salary is a share of the benefits that the company produces, based upon the demand and the worth of the work done. It is just taken in the long-run, not the short.
Salary is a previously agreed amount of money that is paid to an employee in exchange for his work.  It is the same whatever is the financial situation of the company, whether it is in deficit or in benefit.

Somebody needs to pay the salary, that (in the long run), comes from the benefits that the company provides. A salary is just an abstraction of risk, the investors and shareholders take the risk, the salary is paid regardless.  So in the long run, the salary come from the benefits of the company, (or the expected benefits), however has lower potential return, lower risk.

People who work on commission share the benefits also, however they take more risk, therefore have higher potential income, and higher potential losses.

Both share in the benefits, however the those on commission take more, as they take more risk.  The person who is on a salary takes the benefit of having a job at all, at the risk of loosing it.

One off NP-Hard.
grondilu
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December 08, 2010, 04:18:13 AM
 #68

Somebody needs to pay the salary, that (in the long run), comes from the benefits that the company provides. A salary is just an abstraction of risk, the investors and shareholders take the risk, the salary is paid regardless.  So in the long run, the salary come from the benefits of the company, (or the expected benefits), however has lower potential return, lower risk.

People who work on commission share the benefits also, however they take more risk, therefore have higher potential income, and higher potential losses.

Both share in the benefits, however the those on commission take more, as they take more risk.  The person who is on a salary takes the benefit of having a job at all, at the risk of loosing it.

You confuse *benefit* and *income*.

And even so, salaries are *part* of the income of the company, they are not *shares*.

People working on commission receive a part of sales, not benefits.  An employee can receive a huge commission even if its employer has made no benefits.

Again, benefits are whatever has been earned, minus whatever has been spent.  Salaries, commissions and things like that, are expenses.
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December 08, 2010, 04:47:33 AM
 #69

Some companies can pay in shares, if you ask for it.  With a public company, one can always take your salary and invest it into the company he or she works for.  A private company, it will always be up to the owners to decide how they compensate those who the get help it.

Overall it is all about risk. The investors take lots of risks (capital), so they need to be compensated.  An employee takes much less risk, so gets paid accordingly.

One off NP-Hard.
grondilu
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December 08, 2010, 05:30:08 AM
 #70

Some companies can pay in shares, if you ask for it.  With a public company, one can always take your salary and invest it into the company he or she works for.  A private company, it will always be up to the owners to decide how they compensate those who the get help it.

Overall it is all about risk. The investors take lots of risks (capital), so they need to be compensated.  An employee takes much less risk, so gets paid accordingly.

Shares are property.  You can give some to employees only if there are shareholders who agree to give part of their property.  In the same way, a employee can buy shares only if they are people who agree to sell.

Wages and capital are not equivalent, realy.
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December 08, 2010, 02:06:12 PM
 #71

Free market left libertarian.
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December 08, 2010, 02:15:40 PM
 #72

Free market left libertarian.

No offense but, what does that mean ?  How can you be in favor of free market and claim being "left" ?
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December 08, 2010, 02:25:47 PM
 #73

Free market left libertarian.

No offense but, what does that mean ?  How can you be in favor of free market and claim being "left" ?


Agorism is left-libertarianism.
Roderick Long is left-libertarianism (http://aaeblog.com/)
There is even free market socialism, called mutualism, in the tradition of Proudhon and Tucker.

What is the problem with calling myself a free market left libertarian?
grondilu
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December 08, 2010, 02:33:33 PM
 #74

Free market left libertarian.

No offense but, what does that mean ?  How can you be in favor of free market and claim being "left" ?


Agorism is left-libertarianism.
Roderick Long is left-libertarianism (http://aaeblog.com/)
There is even free market socialism, called mutualism, in the tradition of Proudhon and Tucker.

What is the problem with calling myself a free market left libertarian?

I don't know exactly what you mean by "left", but to me it means "communism", or "socialism".  It is very much incompatible with free market.

So to me, "free market socialism" is an oxymore.  I guess I'll have to read about that.
ribuck
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December 08, 2010, 03:08:56 PM
 #75

So to me, "free market socialism" is an oxymore.  I guess I'll have to read about that.

It's only socialism if you are forced to do it.

Most anarcho-capitalists, in their private life, are quite socially-aware and always happy to help out someone deserving who is less fortunate than they are.
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December 08, 2010, 05:42:00 PM
 #76

Agorism is left-libertarianism.
Roderick Long is left-libertarianism (http://aaeblog.com/)
There is even free market socialism, called mutualism, in the tradition of Proudhon and Tucker.

What is the problem with calling myself a free market left libertarian?

I don't know exactly what you mean by "left", but to me it means "communism", or "socialism".  It is very much incompatible with free market.

So to me, "free market socialism" is an oxymore.  I guess I'll have to read about that.

I think I had the discussion in this forum again, but...

Socialism really is not a system. Is a set of promises or desires, but not a set of policies to acomplish those promises (which is very convenient, I know). This promises are equality and having the basic needs covered (food, housing, etc...).

Then there are different systems or proposals to get to those objectives, communism being the most famous, but we all know how it ended. But there are others. In fact, socialist Proudhon was one of the biggest critics of Marx. And developing the ideas of Proudhon, people like Benjamin Tucker or Lysander Spooner would take mutualism to the next level. Now Kevin Karson (which I highly recommend reading) is taking this ideas forward with heavy use of Austrian economics.

This people believe that the free market will bring society as closer as it can get to their ideal of equality. I honestly dont think that peacefully looking for equality is a bad thing. I instinctively dont like to see people having a lot while other people starve. I understand that using the excuse of inequality to gain power and violently impose rules is bad and even against equality itself. But I dont see nothing wrong on working towards a more equal world under free market rules.

I have stopped calling myself a capitalist, because its too loaded, and I wont call myself a socialist for the same reason. I call myself a free marketeer, and since I come from a lefty family I consider myself left-leaning (meaning the core of social values usually related with the left pro-gays, sexually, etc..., but would not like them imposed trough government).

That is why I call myself a free market left-libertarian, or if you want a left leaning free marketeer.
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December 08, 2010, 06:58:57 PM
 #77

Anarchist, but I wouldn't describe myself as an ancap or a leftist.

Well, are you ok with people working for a  salary instead of a share of the benefits of the company they work for ?

If you are, then you're ancap.  Otherwise, you're leftist.


Anarcho-pluralism. Meaning that a stateless society will result in thousands of communities organized as they see fit at a local level. Under such circumstances a left anarchist community could peacefully coexist adjacent to an ancap one. Because I don't wish to impose any form of governance on anyone, I advocate for eliminating the state while strengthening competing institutions at the local level whether they be left or right.

My personal preferences: Among my people, the most likely form of non coercive governance would come in the form of our decentralized clan system. Clans (20-200 people) have historically been the holders of property and resources. Think of the typical western nuclear family and the way it shares food and other resources. My people extend this concept to extended relatives. It has been a very effective way to address the "Tragedy of the Commons." My tribe, the Tlingit, of SE Alaska, had clan ownership over territorial fishing grounds. Clan members were permitted to fish these waters with no limit restrictions. Yet they would dismantle their fish traps and not over fish for personal gain because to do so would threaten the well being of their family. We have what I call a multi-generational clan consciousness, and refrain from doing things that would damage the clan today, or damage the clan 4 generations down the road. This has been the feature of our cultural that has allowed us to survive unbelievable hardships over the past 500 years.

While this might sound like a restriction on liberty and freedom for some here, one must remember that such concepts are derived from cultural context. Concepts of property rights didn't just fall from the sky (like from god, as some claim.) Furthermore, the decentralized clan system I reference allows for private property, entrepreneurship, capital accumulation, etc, so long as it doesn't threaten the clan. If any individual doesn't like this, they could always move to Ancapistan, which will hopefully have a presence in every region of the world.

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December 08, 2010, 07:46:24 PM
 #78

Anarcho-pluralism. Meaning that a stateless society will result in thousands of communities organized as they see fit at a local level. Under such circumstances a left anarchist community could peacefully coexist adjacent to an ancap one. Because I don't wish to impose any form of governance on anyone, I advocate for eliminating the state while strengthening competing institutions at the local level whether they be left or right.

Furthermore, the decentralized clan system I reference allows for private property, entrepreneurship, capital accumulation, etc, so long as it doesn't threaten the clan. If any individual doesn't like this, they could always move to Ancapistan, which will hopefully have a presence in every region of the world.

You have just described a 'phyle' system.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 09, 2010, 08:51:18 PM
 #79

Quote
No offense but, what does that mean ?  How can you be in favor of free market and claim being "left" ?

I am somewhat of a left libertarian too.

I'm similar to an authoritarian leftist in how I would prefer society to be organised.

The difference is the means of achieving that goal.

I would prefer society to be more cooperative, economically equal, and tolerant of lifestyle choices. I do not believe the way to get there is coercion, but persuasion and reward.

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December 09, 2010, 08:57:47 PM
 #80

I am somewhat of a left libertarian too.

I'm similar to an authoritarian leftist in how I would prefer society to be organised.

The difference is the means of achieving that goal.

I would prefer society to be more cooperative, economically equal, and tolerant of lifestyle choices. I do not believe the way to get there is coercion, but persuasion and reward.

Ok I understand now, but a political system is not a philosophy.

Politics is all about making decisions, including those implying the use of coercion.  Therefore, I doubt it makes any sense to claim being both socialist and libertarian.  Socialism is about forbidding free market and private ownership.  Socialism can not be libertarian.
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