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Author Topic: What fee managment methods do you know?  (Read 600 times)
hatshepsut93
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July 07, 2017, 04:03:33 PM
 #1

First, a little bit of theory. Bitcoin fees are measured it satoshi/byte, because transactions have different sizes in bytes. The size is determined by the number of input and output addresses. Every input address adds 180 bytes, while every output adds 34 bytes. Now, about methods.

Address reuse. You can read here why it's bad. On the plus side, if you receive Bitcoins to one address, it also means that you spend Bitcoin from one address.
On practice it would look like this: you accept coins to address A, than you make a spending and the rest of your coins is moved to your new address B, which becomes your new address for accepting coins. With this method you'll have transactions with a size of 224 bytes.
In comparison, if you use a new address for every new incoming transaction, your coins will be spread among many addresses, and when you'll need to send coins from multiple addresses, you'll have a big 1+ kB transaction.

Pay to multiple addresses at once. This is a method used by some exchanges, casinos and other services. You need to wait until you need to make multiple spendings and pay them in one transaction. This transaction will be slightly bigger, but you'll save a bigger amount by effectively cutting outputs.

That's all from me. What other methods do you know and use?

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July 08, 2017, 04:01:11 AM
 #2

every "input" adds 180 bytes if you are using the old clients which created uncompressed private keys, all the new versions of bitcoin wallets i know of are generating compressed private keys which i believe will add 148 bytes.
and these numbers are not fixed there is a +- 1 byte there too.

so if you haven't upgraded already then do it. you'll save up on 32 bytes on each transaction output you spend and that is 32 * fee/byte = fee saved.

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July 08, 2017, 05:12:49 AM
 #3

I use only one bitcoin address for all my transactions during the last year and a half.
Using lots of addresses is a little bit confusing and sometimes i might copy/paste the wrong address and send payment to the wrong guy. Grin
I don`t care about transaction fees that much,but this info is very helpful,thanks.
How about using accelerators?I don`t think  that they work.



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July 08, 2017, 05:33:59 AM
 #4

I just lowball on fees and they go through a large majority of the time. It helps that there typically go through more high-priority networks first to get to their desired destination and they aren't going through a bunch of intermediary wallets or whatever before they get to their destination.

I typically pay about $1 USD in fees and get confirmations within an hour or two. Not the fastest but I can wait and it's not something I'm freaking out about. I don't know where these $3 USD fee stories are coming from to be completely honest.














 

 

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July 08, 2017, 05:40:27 AM
 #5

using multiple address is useless they are all linked if in the same wallet, in fact i only use one now, privacy is still safe because the address it's not linked to your name you know

if you want real privacy you need to use a new wallet each time not creating a new address, it's also true that some hidden addresses are not showed in the explorer...
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July 08, 2017, 05:46:39 AM
 #6

..it's also true that some hidden addresses are not showed in the explorer...

what are hidden addresses? are you talking about some altcoin or is it still bitcoin, because there is no such thing as hidden address in bitcoin. everything is out there and if the bitcoin address has ever received any payment it will show up on a block explorer.


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July 08, 2017, 05:46:45 AM
 #7

I have also recently switched to the option of paying lower fees and the transaction usually confirms in a few hours. I don't mind it at all, since I am the one using them, for example sending BTC to a trading site. Before that, I was using CoinBase which have fixed fees (the fees changes over time, just that you cannot set the fees), so it was quite bad a few months back then. Sad

I typically pay about $1 USD in fees and get confirmations within an hour or two. Not the fastest but I can wait and it's not something I'm freaking out about. I don't know where these $3 USD fee stories are coming from to be completely honest.

CoinBase.


Right now it is at $2 USD, but one month ago it was at $2.5 - $3 USD with 0.001 BTC and above for transaction fees, not even kidding. Sad

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July 08, 2017, 05:49:58 AM
 #8

using multiple address is useless they are all linked if in the same wallet, in fact i only use one now, privacy is still safe because the address it's not linked to your name you know

if you want real privacy you need to use a new wallet each time not creating a new address, it's also true that some hidden addresses are not showed in the explorer...
Im confused that those hidden addresses cant be detect by explorer. Are they mostly the newly created? which doesnt have much transactions which explorer cant detect. Multiple address on a same wallet is still fine since there are wallets that do have an option if you would like to link on a main wallet or create a new one which doesnt have relation on the main.

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July 08, 2017, 05:56:28 AM
 #9

using multiple address is useless they are all linked if in the same wallet, in fact i only use one now, privacy is still safe because the address it's not linked to your name you know

if you want real privacy you need to use a new wallet each time not creating a new address, it's also true that some hidden addresses are not showed in the explorer...
Im confused that those hidden addresses cant be detect by explorer. Are they mostly the newly created? which doesnt have much transactions which explorer cant detect. Multiple address on a same wallet is still fine since there are wallets that do have an option if you would like to link on a main wallet or create a new one which doesnt have relation on the main.

there are no hidden addresses in bitcoin as far as i know. he may be confusing the red text on blockchain.info which says "unable to decode" in the address field with a real address.
but that is not a bitcoin address, it is an output, a special form of output that blockchain.info (or possibly other block explorers) haven't coded in their system yet to be recognized.

the only type that i know of is the OP_Return which is used to embed arbitrary data on the blockchain. they will look like this one:
https://blockchain.info/tx/c83c11c849e7a9d317eec44a07b6aa7dd4328508f3d6117ac6a29c256453196b
which has a url in it (http://www.usnetads.com/view/item-129488291-Wedding-in-time.html )

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Iranus
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July 08, 2017, 08:00:25 AM
 #10

using multiple address is useless they are all linked if in the same wallet, in fact i only use one now, privacy is still safe because the address it's not linked to your name you know
Quote from the Bitcoin Wiki about this:

There has been significant research into the area of what researchers are calling 'identity collapse', which is what happens when more than one Bitcoin address is strongly-linked via the Bitcoin transaction graph to another. Re-using addresses makes their job trivial. There are publically-known databases that exist, right now, that have not only collapsed millions of Bitcoin addresses, but used publically-available information to link those collapsed identities to individuals, and these databases are being actively maintained.
When you buy coins, the exchange can see the addresses that the funds move to.  When you send your coins to a shop, they can see the address that it came from, and if you give them a shipping address then they know who you are and that you own that address.

It's true that when you spend, you would be spending from multiple addresses and the shop would see all of the addresses that you spent from - but the point is that the shop would have to do at least a little effort, and be fully malicious, if they wanted to find out where the rest of your funds were.
Quote from: Amph
if you want real privacy you need to use a new wallet each time not creating a new address
OK, but you still need to understand the importance of changing addresses when you're receiving coins from someone new.

ranochigo
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July 08, 2017, 08:17:14 AM
 #11

First, a little bit of theory. Bitcoin fees are measured it satoshi/byte, because transactions have different sizes in bytes. The size is determined by the number of input and output addresses. Every input address adds 180 bytes, while every output adds 34 bytes. Now, about methods.

Address reuse. You can read here why it's bad. On the plus side, if you receive Bitcoins to one address, it also means that you spend Bitcoin from one address.
On practice it would look like this: you accept coins to address A, than you make a spending and the rest of your coins is moved to your new address B, which becomes your new address for accepting coins. With this method you'll have transactions with a size of 224 bytes.
In comparison, if you use a new address for every new incoming transaction, your coins will be spread among many addresses, and when you'll need to send coins from multiple addresses, you'll have a big 1+ kB transaction.
It will not work. Even though your UXTO are linked to one address, the inputs are still created separate. Your client will still have to specify and sign each UXTO individually in the transaction. If you have received 10 transactions to one address, it will be equivalent to spending from 10 different addresses.














 

 

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Amph
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July 08, 2017, 08:18:16 AM
 #12

..it's also true that some hidden addresses are not showed in the explorer...

what are hidden addresses? are you talking about some altcoin or is it still bitcoin, because there is no such thing as hidden address in bitcoin. everything is out there and if the bitcoin address has ever received any payment it will show up on a block explorer.

hidden address are the one that you can view with listgrouptransactions, they are change address it ensure some level of privacy

using multiple address is useless they are all linked if in the same wallet, in fact i only use one now, privacy is still safe because the address it's not linked to your name you know
Quote from the Bitcoin Wiki about this:

There has been significant research into the area of what researchers are calling 'identity collapse', which is what happens when more than one Bitcoin address is strongly-linked via the Bitcoin transaction graph to another. Re-using addresses makes their job trivial. There are publically-known databases that exist, right now, that have not only collapsed millions of Bitcoin addresses, but used publically-available information to link those collapsed identities to individuals, and these databases are being actively maintained.
When you buy coins, the exchange can see the addresses that the funds move to.  When you send your coins to a shop, they can see the address that it came from, and if you give them a shipping address then they know who you are and that you own that address.

It's true that when you spend, you would be spending from multiple addresses and the shop would see all of the addresses that you spent from - but the point is that the shop would have to do at least a little effort, and be fully malicious, if they wanted to find out where the rest of your funds were.
Quote from: Amph
if you want real privacy you need to use a new wallet each time not creating a new address
OK, but you still need to understand the importance of changing addresses when you're receiving coins from someone new.

even if you use a different address for receiving, you have no control over your address when you send money

so it could be that the next time you send money your wallet send from that address you received and put the change to one another address which is linked with your main address, therefore you are traceable

using multiple address is useless they are all linked if in the same wallet, in fact i only use one now, privacy is still safe because the address it's not linked to your name you know

if you want real privacy you need to use a new wallet each time not creating a new address, it's also true that some hidden addresses are not showed in the explorer...
Im confused that those hidden addresses cant be detect by explorer. Are they mostly the newly created? which doesnt have much transactions which explorer cant detect. Multiple address on a same wallet is still fine since there are wallets that do have an option if you would like to link on a main wallet or create a new one which doesnt have relation on the main.

they are change address, soem of them can not be displayed by the explorer, i have in fact an example of my cold storage which say that there are some bitcoin in blockchain.info but in reality there are more
stevebc
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July 08, 2017, 08:21:22 AM
 #13

It helps that there typically go through more high-priority networks first to get to their desired destination and they aren't going through a bunch of intermediary wallets or whatever before they get to their destination.

What did you mean by this?  Is there some particular way you structure your transactions to get these high-priority networks involved?

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July 08, 2017, 09:36:11 AM
 #14

..it's also true that some hidden addresses are not showed in the explorer...

what are hidden addresses? are you talking about some altcoin or is it still bitcoin, because there is no such thing as hidden address in bitcoin. everything is out there and if the bitcoin address has ever received any payment it will show up on a block explorer.

hidden address are the one that you can view with listgrouptransactions, they are change address it ensure some level of privacy

can you give me an example of these addresses with the link to the block explorer because i have never heard about them and i did a search for the term "listgrouptransactions" that you said but nothing came up.


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July 08, 2017, 10:02:54 AM
 #15

using multiple address is useless they are all linked if in the same wallet, in fact i only use one now, privacy is still safe because the address it's not linked to your name you know

if you want real privacy you need to use a new wallet each time not creating a new address, it's also true that some hidden addresses are not showed in the explorer...

You're right, new wallets and hard mixing (maybe even via various altcoins like Monero or Zcash) are what really guarantees privacy, which makes using 1 address at a time for receiving not as bad as it was described in my link in the first post.

>
I just lowball on fees and they go through a large majority of the time. It helps that there typically go through more high-priority networks first to get to their desired destination and they aren't going through a bunch of intermediary wallets or whatever before they get to their destination.

I typically pay about $1 USD in fees and get confirmations within an hour or two. Not the fastest but I can wait and it's not something I'm freaking out about. I don't know where these $3 USD fee stories are coming from to be completely honest.

That's the problem with Bitcoin, $1 fee is low if you send $1000 or more, but for small transactions (bellow $50) it's a huge amount and it snowballs very quickly when you make more transactions, so it discourages people from using Bitcoin as a currency. So, I'm trying to gather here all the methods that can help to reduce fees.

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July 08, 2017, 01:49:59 PM
 #16

First, a little bit of theory. Bitcoin fees are measured it satoshi/byte, because transactions have different sizes in bytes. The size is determined by the number of input and output addresses. Every input address adds 180 bytes, while every output adds 34 bytes. Now, about methods.

Address reuse. You can read here why it's bad. On the plus side, if you receive Bitcoins to one address, it also means that you spend Bitcoin from one address.
On practice it would look like this: you accept coins to address A, than you make a spending and the rest of your coins is moved to your new address B, which becomes your new address for accepting coins. With this method you'll have transactions with a size of 224 bytes.
In comparison, if you use a new address for every new incoming transaction, your coins will be spread among many addresses, and when you'll need to send coins from multiple addresses, you'll have a big 1+ kB transaction.

Pay to multiple addresses at once. This is a method used by some exchanges, casinos and other services. You need to wait until you need to make multiple spendings and pay them in one transaction. This transaction will be slightly bigger, but you'll save a bigger amount by effectively cutting outputs.

That's all from me. What other methods do you know and use?
I usually use this method:
Use low fee (replacable) when sending Bitcoin if I don't need to hurry
When I see no confirmations after a long time, I send a little fees to that transactions.
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July 08, 2017, 02:41:59 PM
 #17

hidden address are the one that you can view with listgrouptransactions, they are change address it ensure some level of privacy
they are change address, soem of them can not be displayed by the explorer, i have in fact an example of my cold storage which say that there are some bitcoin in blockchain.info but in reality there are more
They are NOT hidden in any sense. Any transaction that you make with Bitcoin is 100% public. You can find out everything about your transaction if you have the transaction ID, ie. amount,addresses that is sent to. The client does not display the change address as it will cause confusion among the users. They are not shown by default in Bitcoin Core but they will be listed when you type listaddressgroupings into the command line.














 

 

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